View Thread : Neo-Geo Dead...


A Black Falcon
It lasted 13 years, but SNK has finally given up on the Neo-Geo and is moving to Sammy's Atomiswave.

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/493/493670p1.html


SNK to Atomiswave
Company puts an end to the Neo Geo.
February 20, 2022 - After first announcing plans last year to develop games on Sammy's Atomiswave arcade board, SNK Playmore delved into specifics at today's AOU arcade show, now running at the Makuhari Messe convention center just outside of Tokyo.

The company revealed that it has finalized a partnership contract with Sammy. As part of the deal, SNK Playmore will put an end to development on its 13-year-old Neo Geo arcade board with the next installment in the Samurai Spirits series, due for Japanese arcade release this Spring. All future development from the company will take place on the Atomiswave board.

Sammy's Atomiswave board, first announced two years back as a low cost arcade board solution, makes use of a scaled down version of Sega's Naomi arcade chipset. So far, the board has received support mostly from Sammy itself, with Guilty Gear being the biggest name to appear thus far.

Getting things off to a big start on its new arcade home, SNK Playmore announced three titles for the board: The King of Fighters 2004 (tentative name), Samurai Spirits AW (tentative name) and Metal Slug 6.

SNK Playmore is promising to make use of the more advanced capabilities of the Atomiswave board to give these titles features that couldn't be achieved on the Neo Geo. King of Fighters will have upgraded sound, graphics and gameplay as well as new characters. Metal Slug 6 will feature network compatibility. Samurai Spirits AW promises some interesting changes, although the company wouldn't delve into specifics.

It was also revealed that development on the tentatively-titled The King of Fighters Neowave, announced by SNK Playmore for the Atomiswave last year, is still continuing. Details on the title were not provided at the show.

We'll have more as we learn it.

OB1
WOOO!

A Black Falcon
Sad, but it's kind of nice to see SNK finally get past the 16 bit era... :)

OB1
Why is it sad? The hardware sucks.

A Black Falcon
Exactly what I'd expect you to say... :)

OB1
It's ancient hardware!

A Black Falcon
So? Okay it's outdated but for 16-bit it looks great... okay the graphics have been just about static for years now (when the maxed out the hardware), and it is time to move on, but given how long they've been on that hardware of course it's sad.

Dark Jaguar
Well, I suppose in a naustalgic way it can be seen like that... I'm in agreement with OB1 on this though. They needed to move on to more powerful hardware, and have needed to do that for some time. I'm not saying they need to abandone 2D, just take it up a notch.

BAM!

OB1
You're really friggin weird, ABF. Hey let's go back to SNES hardware since it looks great for 16-bit graphics. :rolleyes:

A Black Falcon
And with the Atomiswave (which is esssentially a Dreamcast, but with carts), 'better 2d' is exactly what they will do... :)

And OB1, I wonder about you too. Can you have fun playing old games, without thinking really about their technical merits, or are you one of those people whoe are always saying 'well this is okay but I would like it more with better graphics'... you may profess to be the formers sometimes but you sure act like you're in the latter category. Kind of sad.

Okay so these Neo-Geo games are curernt games with these graphics, but if they're still fun... okay, if you pay like $300 for one of them it seems at bit absurd, granted, but despite the fact that for instance Metal Slug's gameplay has been the same through six versions now, the game is still immensely fun to play and the graphical style great so who cares? Oh sure they aren't the most high res 2d but if the game is fun and the graphics look cool (stylistic and funny in MS's case), I don't care much. :)

Though I will be interested to see what they do with better hardware, of course. They couldn't coast on the Neo much longer and while similar games are fun for a while it does get old after a while... I think they'd run out of ideas for the Neo, and definitely run out of any power to push the games arny farther, so this is definitely a good move.

Ryan
Wasn't Neo-Geo actually touted to be 24 bit in it's heyday? I remember seeing ads for it espousing it's immense superiority to SNES and Genny. The home system, that is. Which also had a price tag that was beyond ridiculous. Weren't the games themselves like $150 each?

Dark Jaguar
Yeah, from what I understand it's because the system lacked sufficient RAM so they packed all the RAM in the games instead. Talk about utterly inefficient wastes...

A Black Falcon
The last Neo-Geo game is coming soon. It's a improved version of the recent Samurai Shodown V... :)

And $150? Well... they start at over $300... then slowly drop in price. They'd have been more than $150 new for sure.

Why? Because the home console was identical to the arcade machine, unlike SNES and Genesis which were not nearly as good... if you've played Neo-Geo and then SNES versions of games like Samurai Shodown you'd know what I mean. The Neo version is a lot better.

RAM? I don't know... but it does use massive ROM carts. Like, maxing out at ~750 megabit...

OB1
And with the Atomiswave (which is esssentially a Dreamcast, but with carts), 'better 2d' is exactly what they will do... :)

And OB1, I wonder about you too. Can you have fun playing old games, without thinking really about their technical merits, or are you one of those people whoe are always saying 'well this is okay but I would like it more with better graphics'... you may profess to be the formers sometimes but you sure act like you're in the latter category. Kind of sad.

Okay so these Neo-Geo games are curernt games with these graphics, but if they're still fun... okay, if you pay like $300 for one of them it seems at bit absurd, granted, but despite the fact that for instance Metal Slug's gameplay has been the same through six versions now, the game is still immensely fun to play and the graphical style great so who cares? Oh sure they aren't the most high res 2d but if the game is fun and the graphics look cool (stylistic and funny in MS's case), I don't care much. :)

Though I will be interested to see what they do with better hardware, of course. They couldn't coast on the Neo much longer and while similar games are fun for a while it does get old after a while... I think they'd run out of ideas for the Neo, and definitely run out of any power to push the games arny farther, so this is definitely a good move.

What an absolutely retarteded thing to say. But very typical of you, of course.

I compare games to others at the time of their release. I can enjoy Mario Bros. without thinking "man this is ugly" because it looked great when it came out. But if Mario 128 were to use that same engine I'd be very dissapointed since new games are supposed to keep up with the times. It's sad that you don't understant this very simple concept.

Dark Jaguar
What if they made it look like the original for some huge artistic reasons, PROFOUND in their effect, like um... how Adult Swim's shows look terrible on purpose.

OB1
You mean as a joke game?

Dark Jaguar
Yes, a game that basically takes everything bad games do wrong and combine it into one experience, and manages to turn all those things bad games do wrong into something FUN! It would be AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRT!

OB1
That could be fun.

Great Rumbler
You take it and you hold it up in the air...and it's ART!!

OB1
Yeah...

Great Rumbler
Previously, on Not Without Our XBox...



Seamus> HELLLLOOOO JAPAN!
Board> ...
Seamus> Do you... see... this table? This table is not a table. This table is ART.
Board> *yells in Japanese to the translator*
Translator> I do not know what he means!
Seamus> The XBox... is like this. You pick it up, and hold it in the air, and it... BLENDS... in with the sky. Art, people.
Board> ...
*doors to the room fly open*
J Allard> WAAAASSSSSSSSSS...


We now return you to the thrilling continuation...

Allard> SSSSSSSUUUUUUPPPPPPPP!! HOW ARE MY DAWGS DOIN UP IN THIS PIECE?
Board> Is it time for lunch already?
Translator> No, in America, “Dogs” is an expression for… compatriots.
Allard> FO SHIZZLE! BBBWWWAAAAAAA!!!!
Board> …
Allard> *violently moves head left and right with his tongue sticking out*

http://www.boomspeed.com/greatrumbler/allard.jpg

Translator> Hmm… yes, ok. Mr. Satoru would like to know, why are you smiling?
Allard> Cause I’m just keeping it real, honey. Check this out! Yo, my name is J, no one is better, try to find someone with a name that’s a letter. At Hiroshima, we kicked your-
Seamus> J! Enough!
Allard> I’m just keeping it real, Trespasser. So homies, lets get on tha down low. We want your support, natch.
Translator> Mr. Satoru says that he is weary of the potential success of the X-Box in Japan. He says that Japanese gamers prefer more traditional games like RPG’s, instead of First Person games, like Halo.
Allard> … did he just say Halo sucks?
Translator> Err, no, I think he meant-
Allard> *jumps up on table* DID YOU JUST SAY HALO SUCKS, BITCH?

http://www.city.akita.akita.jp/city/cs/st/MICHINOKU/image/hiroshi.jpg

Allard> Are you laughing at me? Are you about to laugh?

http://www.city.akita.akita.jp/city/cs/st/MICHINOKU/image/hiroshi.jpg

Allard> …

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/game/docs/20010107/dsc_0037.jpg

Allard> You better watch yourself, Japan, because I will kick your ass.
Ed Fries> You…. you can leave now, J.
Allard> PEACE OUT, YO! Hey Bill, how’d I do?
Bill Gates> I’m…. going to skin you… alive…. and wear your skin.
Allard> Word to that.
Ed Fries> o….k, at this point I would like to bring a special guest speaker, a man who is developing exclusive content for the Xbox. Mr. Lorne Lanning! Mr. Lanning is a VERY respected developer.

http://www.anderson.ucla.edu/research/japan/photos/drinking.jpg

Blackley> STOP LAUGHING! HE IS! Please come in Lorne.
Lorne Lanning> Hello everybody. Are we all feeling…. sexy… today?
Board> …
Lanning> Love your body like I love mine. Like this.

http://www.oddworld.au.com/necrum-mines/images/lorne.gif

Lanning> Mmmmmmm.
Ed Fries> Lorne… are you drunk?
Lanning> No.

http://www.anderson.ucla.edu/research/japan/photos/drinking.jpg

Blackley> This is a disaster…
Translator> The board would like to know what Mr. Lanning’s specialty is.
Lanning> Art. The Xbox is art. My games, my Odyssey games, are art. You Japanese folk could learn a thing or two when it comes to art, you know. Munch is an experience in the transcelestial endeavors of the visual dialect of a GENIUS. That genius, is me. Only with the power of the Xbox can I double over like this, and suck my own-

http://image.pathfinder.com/time/digital/microsoft/images/gates.jpg

Bill Gates> THAT’S IT! SEND IN PLAN… B!
Ed Fries> Are you sure that’s a wise move sir??
Blackley> When I look at you, Bill, I look inside your mouth. I see power and beauty. Your teeth are deadly soldiers, lined up to do battle, while your tonsils only want peace. A mascarade of brilliance and sorrow. A work. Of ART.
Ed Fries> Sir, I REALLY don’t think Plan B is such a good idea.
Bill Gates> It’s too late. He’s already been let out of the cage. The Licker has been unleashed, and he is headed your way.
Translator> WHAT IS THIS HORROR YOU SPEAK OF??
Ed Fries> Ok, everyone calm down. We need to get out of this room and evacuate the building as quickly as possible. We don’t have much time, as-

*the doors burst open*

Ed Fries> Oh dear lord in heaven.

http://www.tse-hamburg.de/Extras/Bilder/ballmer.jpg

Ed Fries> N-nobody move. He can't see us if we don't move.
Steve Ballmer> ALRIGHT PEOPLE, THIS IS WHAT WE’RE GOING TO DO! PUT DOWN THE CHOPSTICKS AND PICK UP YOUR BALLS, BECAUSE YOU’RE GOING TO @#%$ LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY! THE XBOX IS A MOTHER @#%$ REVOLUTIONARY PIECE OF MACHINERY, NOT UNLIKE OTHER BREAKTHROUGHS YOUR COUNTRY HAS DISCOVERED, LIKE THE SILK WORM, OR GODZILLA! THE XBOX IS A GOD!! THE XBOX IS YOUR GOD!!
Translator> Please! Do not hurt us! We will give in to your demands. We will give you Onimusha! Please, just spare us!
Bill Gates> Deal.
Steve Ballmer> WOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!

http://www.boomspeed.com/greatrumbler/steve_ballmer.jpg

Ballmer> NOW LETS GET DRUNK LIKE LITTLE SCHOOL GIRLS!!!

A Black Falcon
I compare games to others at the time of their release. I can enjoy Mario Bros. without thinking "man this is ugly" because it looked great when it came out. But if Mario 128 were to use that same engine I'd be very dissapointed since new games are supposed to keep up with the times. It's sad that you don't understant this very simple concept.

Had you expressed it quite like that before? I'm not sure... not recently anyway. :)

But given how much you complain about graphics -- and it's a lot -- it makes me wonder...

As you can guess I just don't care as much about that as you. It's not not liking good graphics, it's not minding bad ones as much... oh in some cases I care but often as not there are gameplay reasons too... like no target sight, I think, in SNES Star Fox (third person)...

Oh and if you want a real example of a game using "bad" graphics, how about some of those backgrounds in SSB:M? :)

Ryan
I remember reading the XBox conquers Japan thing before, but in retrospect, Steve Ballmer really, really reminds me of Howard Dean.

OB1
Did you write that, GR? Funny stuff. :lol:

Had you expressed it quite like that before? I'm not sure... not recently anyway.

But given how much you complain about graphics -- and it's a lot -- it makes me wonder...

As you can guess I just don't care as much about that as you. It's not not liking good graphics, it's not minding bad ones as much... oh in some cases I care but often as not there are gameplay reasons too... like no target sight, I think, in SNES Star Fox (third person)...

Oh and if you want a real example of a game using "bad" graphics, how about some of those backgrounds in SSB:M?

You just have really low standards when it comes to all things visuals-related.

A Black Falcon
Repeating things doesn't make them any more true, you know... do you ever actually LISTEN to what I am saying? Sure doesn't seem it.

OB1
You made yourself very clear. You think that graphics that were good enough ten years ago are still good enough today.

A Black Falcon
Okay, I give up of ever trying to get OB1 to understand me even when I make it very clear...

Ryan
Did you write that, GR? Funny stuff. :lol:
If he did, how would I remember reading it before? :D

OB1
Ah, I thought I had read it somewhere before.

Okay, I give up of ever trying to get OB1 to understand me even when I make it very clear...


What about my statement is false? You think that aging graphics hardware like the Neo Geo board are good enough by today's standards.

A Black Falcon
You made yourself very clear. You think that graphics that were good enough ten years ago are still good enough today.

Fine, I'll repeat the same thing in different words for the five hundredth time and just hope that this time it gets past the wall you have between reading something and understanding it...

When a game has good graphics, I notice and like it. When I play Warcraft III I play it at maxed graphical settings. I only don't use a better graphics option if it has a downside -- like in RtCW I turned down character detail settings because with 128mb ram it slowed down way too much sometimes when an enemy appeared... or in Baldur's Gate II I or Diablo II didn't use 800x600 (and stuck with 640x480) because I didn't like how small everything was in those resolutions. Especially BG2. But I usually play FPSes at 1024x768... saying that I don't appreciate good graphics is insane. Your problem is that like usual you read what I say and don't take it to mean what I mean it to but what you want it to, and stick to that despite how much I try to tell you otherwise! It's INCREDIBLY frusterating.

See you seem to be thinking 'okay he doesn't mind playing games with poor graphics so he dislikes good graphics' or something stupid like that.

... okay, sometimes I do like older graphics better than newer... but often that's closely tied to style. Warlords Battlecry may have 'better' graphics than Warcraft II but it has such a bland style that I prefer WC2, by far. Or Disciples II vs HOMMIV, etc... For old games (like you said you do) I don't think of them in terms of modern games but in terms of the time... but if a game with "older" graphics is artistically better than a newer game, I'd probably call it better looking (overall) because style is so important... more than technical probably. Given how you act you don't seem to agree with that statement. When you talk about how good graphics are, you obviously focus on technical. I don't. That's what brought on our whole World of Warcraft arguement... YET YOU STILL SHOW A COMPLETE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF MY POSITION! That's only possible if you are not even trying to think about what I mean, but it's so blatantly obvious that that's how you operate that it's hardly surprising.

OB1
Your position is completely nonsensical! Your argument would make sense if SNK moving to the Atomsware hardware meant that they'd have to use a different art style, but that's not going to happen! Their art isn't the way it is because of the shitty Neo Geo hardware, Einstein! Moving to new hardware will only make their games look better! DAMN are you stupid! WOW. Simply WOW.

But I usually play FPSes at 1024x768

WOAH, don't go too extreme with those resolutions, buddy!!

A Black Falcon
WOAH, don't go too extreme with those resolutions, buddy!!

Oh some games I've played higher, but older ones have res maxes and for newer games I can only do so much with them... I mean I may have a P4 1.5GHZ with 384MB of RAM, but remember my video card is a 32mb GeForce2 GTS...

Your position is completely nonsensical! Your argument would make sense if SNK moving to the Atomsware hardware meant that they'd have to use a different art style, but that's not going to happen! Their art isn't the way it is because of the shitty Neo Geo hardware, Einstein! Moving to new hardware will only make their games look better! DAMN are you stupid! WOW. Simply WOW.


This is exactly what I am talking about. Did I say that I thought that the Atomiswave games would have worse graphics? NO! I did not! I said that the end of the Neo-Geo is sad because of how long it's been around and how many good games are on the system, but I also said that I recognize that they can't do anything new on the thing and that to be able to move into more gameplay possibilities, and to vary gameplay more, I recognize that they need to use newer hardware. So I said that it's a good move. I didn't talk about graphics at all on the Neo-Geo/Atomiswave issue!

Anyway... I've seen a few shots of KOF for Atomiswave. It looks nice. It looks good. Not a massive step up (still 2d of course), but good. You're right, in cases like this where it's the same art style but better graphics the improvement is generally welcomed... like QFG1 CGA vs the QFG1 remake -- I may like the remake a lot more because of the graphical interface, but the beautiful 256 color graphics are another draw to that game. :)

Oh and sometimes "better" graphics are not. In the PC strategy genre, look at HOMMIV or Warlords (III, IV, Battlecry, Battlecry 2...). Or Age of Wonders II. They have nice graphics, sure, but they have somewhat bland CG graphics. Unimpressive. Give me nice handdrawn graphics (like Disciples) any day. They may not be "as good" but they look better, for sure!

OB1
Oh some games I've played higher, but older ones have res maxes and for newer games I can only do so much with them... I mean I may have a P4 1.5GHZ with 384MB of RAM, but remember my video card is a 32mb GeForce2 GTS...


Still...

This is exactly what I am talking about. Did I say that I thought that the Atomiswave games would have worse graphics? NO! I did not!
Yes you did actually, by comparing those two games, one which uses a better graphics engine but doesn't look better because of the art style. That was the example you used.
I said that the end of the Neo-Geo is sad because of how long it's been around and how many good games are on the system, but I also said that I recognize that they can't do anything new on the thing and that to be able to move into more gameplay possibilities, and to vary gameplay more, I recognize that they need to use newer hardware. So I said that it's a good move. I didn't talk about graphics at all on the Neo-Geo/Atomiswave issue!
Uh, yes you did! When I said that it was about damn time you said "I knew you'd say that", meaning that I'm strange because I think the neo geo hardware is shitty by today's standards. It isn't a child, for crying out loud. You don't get sad over crappy hardware dying out.

Anyway... I've seen a few shots of KOF for Atomiswave. It looks nice. It looks good. Not a massive step up (still 2d of course), but good. You're right, in cases like this where it's the same art style but better graphics the improvement is generally welcomed... like QFG1 CGA vs the QFG1 remake -- I may like the remake a lot more because of the graphical interface, but the beautiful 256 color graphics are another draw to that game.
Why don't you post some screens?

Oh and sometimes "better" graphics are not. In the PC strategy genre, look at HOMMIV or Warlords (III, IV, Battlecry, Battlecry 2...). Or Age of Wonders II. They have nice graphics, sure, but they have somewhat bland CG graphics. Unimpressive. Give me nice handdrawn graphics (like Disciples) any day. They may not be "as good" but they look better, for sure!


Again you're going into subjective art styles, which is totally not the point. SNK is still the same developer!!! Yes Yoshi's Island looks better than Suikoden II but imagine how much better it'd look if it used that same technology!

A Black Falcon
Yes you did actually, by comparing those two games, one which uses a better graphics engine but doesn't look better because of the art style. That was the example you used.

What are you talking about? ... oh that. I wasn't referring to the Neo-Geo vs the Atomiswave there...

Uh, yes you did! When I said that it was about damn time you said "I knew you'd say that", meaning that I'm strange because I think the neo geo hardware is shitty by today's standards. It isn't a child, for crying out loud. You don't get sad over crappy hardware dying out.

So you've never been sad when any of Nintendo's platforms have ceased to be supported. Uh huh.

Why don't you post some screens?

I will.

Again you're going into subjective art styles, which is totally not the point. SNK is still the same developer!!! Yes Yoshi's Island looks better than Suikoden II but imagine how much better it'd look if it used that same technology!

Well... mostly the same developer... remember after the bankruptcy in 2001 they had a bad period and lost some people...

As for your point, yeah, it is subjective, that is true, but it's the part that I pay the most attention to when I say what graphics I like most... sure older games with modern technology in many cases would look better, but if you take that to 'the old game used to be fun but because of those old graphics it isn't that much anymore' or 'they should remake the old game, it'd be better with better graphics'...

Sword of Mana is great, but it hasn't made Final Fantasy Adventure one bit a worse game.

A Black Falcon
Some Neo-Geo games

Last Blade 2
http://www.neo-geo.com/reviews/neo-reviews/lastblade2/lb23.png
http://www.neo-geo.com/reviews/neo-reviews/lastblade2/lb22.png
http://www.neogeoforlife.com/reviews/Last%20Blade%202_files/lb2shot1.jpeg (doesn't seem to work as an image)

Garou
http://www.neo-geo.com/reviews/neo-reviews/motw/motw3.gif

KOF 2002 (don't seem to work unless you click links...)
http://www.neogeoforlife.com/reviews/the king of fighters 2k2_files/kof2k2shot1.png
http://www.neogeoforlife.com/reviews/the%20king%20of%20fighters%202k2_files/kof2k2shot2.png
http://www.neogeoforlife.com/reviews/the%20king%20of%20fighters%202k2_files/kof2k2shot3.png

KOF NeoWave (guy says not to link images so I won't)

http://www.snk-capcom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5643&page=5&pp=15 (a couple posts down)
http://www.snk-capcom.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5643&page=1&pp=15

Oh, while SNK is making KOF 2004, Metal Slug 6, and probably Samurai Shodown 6 for the Atomiswave, this KOF NeoWave might be being made by Sammy (Guilty Gear), not SNK itsself... the graphics anyway are clearly based on a few older KOF games (2000-2001 maybe). Oh and someone (the American SNK studio maybe, I don't know) is making a 3D KOF for PS2.

OB1
What are you talking about? ... oh that. I wasn't referring to the Neo-Geo vs the Atomiswave there...



You were using it as an example of how better hardware can be a bad thing, which doesn't make any sense at all since those were from two different developers. If the same developer made the same game twice, one with crappy hardware and one with good hardware, the one on the better hardware would look better.

So you've never been sad when any of Nintendo's platforms have ceased to be supported. Uh huh.



Why would I? I look forward to their future! The old games will always be there, it's not like they pack up and leave or anything like that.

Well... mostly the same developer... remember after the bankruptcy in 2001 they had a bad period and lost some people...

As for your point, yeah, it is subjective, that is true, but it's the part that I pay the most attention to when I say what graphics I like most... sure older games with modern technology in many cases would look better, but if you take that to 'the old game used to be fun but because of those old graphics it isn't that much anymore' or 'they should remake the old game, it'd be better with better graphics'...

Sword of Mana is great, but it hasn't made Final Fantasy Adventure one bit a worse game.


Of course it not, because it had its day in the sun. If it came out today looking like that however, it would definitely be considered pathetic.

And I meant that you should post some Atomiswave SNK games.

A Black Falcon
And I meant that you should post some Atomiswave SNK games.

I posted two links to images of KOF NeoWave for Atomiswave! Blurry shots sure but they're there...


Of course it not, because it had its day in the sun. If it came out today looking like that however, it would definitely be considered pathetic.

It's still a great games that is very fun to play and unique within its series... I'd certainly say FFA is still a great game.


Why would I? I look forward to their future! The old games will always be there, it's not like they pack up and leave or anything like that.

Sad...

You were using it as an example of how better hardware can be a bad thing, which doesn't make any sense at all since those were from two different developers. If the same developer made the same game twice, one with crappy hardware and one with good hardware, the one on the better hardware would look better.

KOF NeoWave looks like it isn't by SNK but is by Sammy so the way you interpreted my example is more accurate than either of us thought... :)

We don't have any shots of any other SNK Atomiswave games yet so this is all we got.

And you are right that if the same developer made the same game twice the second would look better, but as I said last time we had this discussion doing that without affecting gameplay is absurdly rare. Of course just graphically the update is better (since when it's by the same team usually it is an improvement and maintains the graphical style) but if you factor in gameplay it isn't as certain. :)

Ryan
But I usually play FPSes at 1024x768...

...no fucking way! :eek:

OB1
I posted two links to images of KOF NeoWave for Atomiswave! Blurry shots sure but they're there...

Crappy shots.

Sad...

Yeah it's so sad that I'd rather see new Gamecube games than new N64 games, or that in 2006 I'll be looking forward to new N5 games. :whatever:

KOF NeoWave looks like it isn't by SNK but is by Sammy so the way you interpreted my example is more accurate than either of us thought...

We don't have any shots of any other SNK Atomiswave games yet so this is all we got.

And you are right that if the same developer made the same game twice the second would look better, but as I said last time we had this discussion doing that without affecting gameplay is absurdly rare. Of course just graphically the update is better (since when it's by the same team usually it is an improvement and maintains the graphical style) but if you factor in gameplay it isn't as certain.

It does not look like Guilty Gear. It still looks like KOF. And unless it's a leap from 2D to 3D, changing graphics engines have absolutely nothing to do with gameplay.

A Black Falcon
Crappy shots.

Magazine scans are all we got at this point.


Yeah it's so sad that I'd rather see new Gamecube games than new N64 games, or that in 2006 I'll be looking forward to new N5 games.

Sad that you don't fully appreciate older systems, it seems. Oh you like older games but why hate so much the idea of still making games for them? Oh sure newer hardware is better but that's not always the most important factor for making games...


It does not look like Guilty Gear. It still looks like KOF. And unless it's a leap from 2D to 3D, changing graphics engines have absolutely nothing to do with gameplay.

Because as I said it's basing its graphics on a few of the more recent KOF games... one of those characters gets a new costume every year (Athena) and she's in one of those pics with a costume she had a few years back.

Ryan
Jesus, ladies. Calm down. :confused2

Dark Jaguar
They sound like bickering hens don't they? :D

That's why we love them!

Sacred Jellybean
That's why we love them!

W...we do...? When was this decided? Why don't you guys ever wake me up for the important meetings?!

OB1
Sad that you don't fully appreciate older systems, it seems. Oh you like older games but why hate so much the idea of still making games for them? Oh sure newer hardware is better but that's not always the most important factor for making games...


:muddled: There are only disadvantages to making games for older hardware instead of newer hardware. I really don't understand your whole "ugly games are better" train of thought. Better technology gives you more freedom, and you can do bigger and better things with it. You can also make games just as ugly as old ones as well.

You're so weird!

Because as I said it's basing its graphics on a few of the more recent KOF games... one of those characters gets a new costume every year (Athena) and she's in one of those pics with a costume she had a few years back.


You just said it looks like a Sammy game... :erm:

It's still using the KOF art style.

They sound like bickering hens don't they?

That's why we love them!


You think I like this? That idiot gets on my nerves! And he's always so wrong that I can't help but argue with him. I know I know, I should be the bigger man and let him say the idiotic things that he does without responding to his nonsense, but then I might as well leave TC altogether. He's everywhere! I come to TC for the other people here, because a lot of time we have fun and can have some interesting gaming discussions. It's like eating a really tasty burrito but having to deal with diarrhea every now and then. ABF is like that diarrhea.

Great Rumbler
Better hardware isn't just better graphics you can also have more things on screen and still keep the game at a good framerate. Just look at Marvel vs. Capcom 2. It could NEVER work on the SNES simply because the processing power it takes to keep everything running smoothly and switching characters during battles would be too much for the SNES.

OB1
How did you like the metaphor I used for ABF?

Great Rumbler
Interesting, to say the least. :D

OB1
I like it. :D

A Black Falcon
You just said it looks like a Sammy game...

It's still using the KOF art style.

Oh, you misunderstood me. :) I meant that I think Sammy is developing the game.


There are only disadvantages to making games for older hardware instead of newer hardware. I really don't understand your whole "ugly games are better" train of thought. Better technology gives you more freedom, and you can do bigger and better things with it. You can also make games just as ugly as old ones as well.

You're so weird!


Every system has its own charms and ideosyncracies that make it different and not just 'newer = better in every way'...

Oh and I'm just a mild 'liking older games' person. I don't even have any old consoles! There are lots of serious classic-games gamers... for some relevant to this look no further than www.neo-geo.com . A whole website (huge membership too) devoted to "strange" people who not only play old games but buy $300 Neo-Geo games regularly!

You think I like this? That idiot gets on my nerves! And he's always so wrong that I can't help but argue with him. I know I know, I should be the bigger man and let him say the idiotic things that he does without responding to his nonsense, but then I might as well leave TC altogether. He's everywhere! I come to TC for the other people here, because a lot of time we have fun and can have some interesting gaming discussions. It's like eating a really tasty burrito but having to deal with diarrhea every now and then. ABF is like that diarrhea.

Funny, I think similar things about you... you are infuriatingly annoying... you NEVER listen. You never listen! I know I say it a lot but it's so, SO true. You do not listen. Oh you read, I guess, but you don't really interpret... at times it's almost more than I can take. I HATE explaining things thirty times and having you STILL THINKING THE SAME (wrong) THING AT THE END! Even when I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are wrong, and even when I have proof...

I'd love to just be able to discuss things, but then you come along and make the atmosphere extremely hostile and start slinging insults and once you latch on to a position nothing will ever change it no matter what... arguements where you are not involved can be much, much more pleasant to be in. Even if they would be a lot shorter. :)

Sacred Jellybean
Every system has its own charms and ideosyncracies that make it different and not just 'newer = better in every way'...

I agree with ABF on this one. While I don't find it <i>really</i> sad that these systems are outdated, I still sometimes wonder what it would be like if people still developed for it. Nostalgia for a particular console plays a humongous part in that, I'd say.

It's a feeling you get when you play an addictive NES game for the first time (one that you never knew about before) and adore it. You realize that since no one is developing for the system any longer, there's a limit on the number of other NES games you could discover (when I say that, I mean discover for yourself), and that thought is a little depressing. I realize how illogical that sounds, since the new systems can all show prettier graphics, but for pure nostalgia and that alone, it isn't the same.

I'm not getting sucked into this silly argument, though. I don't expect you to understand, OB1, so go ahead and insult me until your fingertips turn black and blue, if it really makes you feel better. I don't care.

Dark Jaguar
I'll say there is ONE advantage to working on such an old system. They know the hardware. They don't have to learn new hardware. That's something I guess. Eventually though, ya gotta move on. Oh sure it would be fun to see exactly how far one could go (perhaps a total GENIUS might get Doom 3 working perfectly on the old Atari :D), but it's good to go onward.

Now ABF, while systems released around the same time tend to be better at some things yet worse at others, when you go 1 or 2 GENERATIONS ahead of that system, that system can do absolutely everything the previous one could, and truly IS in every concievable way the better system. This is why emulation can work so well for old NES games on the GCN. The GCN can easily do absolutely every single last thing the NES could ever EVER ever EVER EVER EVER ever EVER EVER EVER EvEr EVEr eVER EVER eVeR Ever ever do, and that's a fact (oh, except have a decent select button :D).

Sacred Jellybean
DJ: True... if only companies would release more emulated games for the current systems. :S Plus, as you said, the controller is also an issue. The D-pad on GCN is too damned small, thus the controller itself isn't the best to play with NES games.

A Black Falcon
You answered your own question, DJ. The most basic thing seperating consoles is the controller. :)

For example, the Neo-Geo comes with a arcade stick as the normal controller (though there was a dpad one too)... sure you might be able to get one but it's not standard equipment and most people don't have them so they have a very, very different experience... or as SJ says how about D-Pad size? Or how about button locations? Each system is different and games are often built for the controller, and the controller shapes how you interact with the game...

For instance I haven't played OoT on the NGC but I don't know if I'd want to. The N64 controller is just so much better for the game (thinking of WW) that I'm sure the game is better on the N64.

Oh, and for Neo-Geo you have one more issue in your hypothesis. Loading. See as I said, Neo-Geo carts get up to 750 megabit. That's big. Even compressed, on a DVD you WILL have loading times. Oh, the Neo-Geo games on PS2 are nearly perfect and most people wouldn't care at all but the most detail-oriented fans can find SOMETHING different... for 99% of the population it's identical I'm sure but I am also sure that there would be small loading times. The PS1 versions of the games of course had awful loading times... but that is supporting your point --- one generation better, PS1, cannot do Neo-Geo games any justice because of loading. But the PS2 can get very close. I think the main differences are some things about sprites (and how the PS2 handles them) and the fact that for KOF2000/2001 they improved the backgrounds so they are not the same...

Dark Jaguar
You answered your own question, DJ.

I wasn't asking anything!

Ah yes, but 750 megabits is actually just 93.75 megaBYTES, which is what everything that isn't a cartridge uses. Considering I have a gig of RAM in my machine, load times would not exist.

Oh by the way, the control system for OOT is NOT like WW. In WW the camera has it's own control system on the C stick so they couldn't do this but, in OOT, they put all the c-button features on the c stick. Since the GCN is so much more comfortable, I actually like it MORE than the original. However, even on the very nicely done c-stick setup, you do have to get used to it, and it's a little tough to fire arrows rapidly by flicking the c-stick.

Load times are indeed the only issue due to going from format to format. Once RAM gets to a certain point though, and it's pretty darn close as it is, that won't be an issue either and all the old cart games will be entirely runnable in RAM.

Yes, I pointed out the controller thing didn't I? I did that on purpose because I didn't consider it to count. They make custom controls for arcade machines anyway so it just wasn't relevant.

A Black Falcon
I wasn't asking anything!

The unspoken question 'what advantages does working on old hardware have'. :) But I'm sure you knew that.

Ah yes, but 750 megabits is actually just 93.75 megaBYTES, which is what everything that isn't a cartridge uses. Considering I have a gig of RAM in my machine, load times would not exist.

Ah but we're talking consoles not PCs... consoles don't have 100 megs of RAM yet. And even if they did you'd need to consider that there's overhead for the game on top of that. When consoles have 128 megs of ram they might be able to do load-free large Neo games.

Yes, I pointed out the controller thing didn't I? I did that on purpose because I didn't consider it to count. They make custom controls for arcade machines anyway so it just wasn't relevant.

... huh? It's not relevant that the game was designed for something other than you are playing it on? Are you nuts? That's a major and very important point! ... unless I'm misunderstanding you?

Oh by the way, the control system for OOT is NOT like WW. In WW the camera has it's own control system on the C stick so they couldn't do this but, in OOT, they put all the c-button features on the c stick. Since the GCN is so much more comfortable, I actually like it MORE than the original. However, even on the very nicely done c-stick setup, you do have to get used to it, and it's a little tough to fire arrows rapidly by flicking the c-stick.

Oh I know the WW control system is different, but it's based on OoT's controls and I can see how OoT would be laid out on the NGC controller... and I'll keep my N64 version thank you very much.

Dark Jaguar
Yeah you misunderstood me. Then again, I wasn't exactly certain of my point myself, so whatever. They make plenty of custom controllers for consoles so you can find what you want anyway.

I suppose we differ on our opinions on the controllers. Personally, I much prefer the analog stick on the GCN controller, as well as the shoulder triggers. They work out much nicer for me in OOT. Also, the C stick configuration for the C buttons also works out remarkably well.

In any case, the one thing you're missing out on the most is Master Quest. You'd enjoy that I know. One note, playing Zelda 2 on my Zelda collection disk, I have found that the control stick actually works GREAT in that game. In some ways, the stick controls that game better, which is odd considering that in most platform games I'd totally use a d-pad. Part of it could be the bad placement of the d-pad on the GCN controller, but another part is just the physics of Zelda 2, how movement works. Zelda 1 on the other hand was never meant for control sticks.

A Black Falcon
How did I misunderstand you? I mean you're talking about how the NGC can do EVERYTHING the NES could and then say 'wait a minuite it can't in several ways'... thus proving your supposition wrong. :)

The C-Stick for items? Seems like it'd be a huge, huge hassle... and Z is far better than L or R... and darnit I LIKE the N64 control stick, dissolving or not! :D

And I wish I had Master Quest, but there's no way for me to get it...

Dark Jaguar
Um, it CAN except we're talking emulation. Direct port and they could easily set it up so the load times are completely unnoticable on today's systems.

The controller thing is the only actual issue, but I was pointing that out for fun because we were only talking about the system itself, the thinking part.

OB1
The GC controller is a hundred times better than the N64 controller. Sure the Z button is better-placed on the N64 controller, but the GC analog stick is so much better, and the controller is a lot more comfortable.

Oh, you misunderstood me. I meant that I think Sammy is developing the game.



What makes you think that?

Every system has its own charms and ideosyncracies that make it different and not just 'newer = better in every way'...

Oh and I'm just a mild 'liking older games' person. I don't even have any old consoles! There are lots of serious classic-games gamers... for some relevant to this look no further than www.neo-geo.com <http://www.neo-geo.com> . A whole website (huge membership too) devoted to "strange" people who not only play old games but buy $300 Neo-Geo games regularly!



"Charms and ideosyncracies" like low resolutions and poor processing power? Yeah, that sure is charming.

Funny, I think similar things about you... you are infuriatingly annoying... you NEVER listen. You never listen! I know I say it a lot but it's so, SO true. You do not listen. Oh you read, I guess, but you don't really interpret... at times it's almost more than I can take. I HATE explaining things thirty times and having you STILL THINKING THE SAME (wrong) THING AT THE END! Even when I know beyond any shadow of a doubt that you are wrong, and even when I have proof...

I'd love to just be able to discuss things, but then you come along and make the atmosphere extremely hostile and start slinging insults and once you latch on to a position nothing will ever change it no matter what... arguements where you are not involved can be much, much more pleasant to be in. Even if they would be a lot shorter.


Now you're just repeating to me what I've been saying about you for years now. You can't even come up with your own reasons for disliking me! You're the most annoying person in the entire universe ABF, and you do not deserve any sympathy from me.

I agree with ABF on this one. While I don't find it really sad that these systems are outdated, I still sometimes wonder what it would be like if people still developed for it. Nostalgia for a particular console plays a humongous part in that, I'd say.

It's a feeling you get when you play an addictive NES game for the first time (one that you never knew about before) and adore it. You realize that since no one is developing for the system any longer, there's a limit on the number of other NES games you could discover (when I say that, I mean discover for yourself), and that thought is a little depressing. I realize how illogical that sounds, since the new systems can all show prettier graphics, but for pure nostalgia and that alone, it isn't the same.

I'm not getting sucked into this silly argument, though. I don't expect you to understand, OB1, so go ahead and insult me until your fingertips turn black and blue, if it really makes you feel better. I don't care.


Sure it would be neat to see Nintendo make another new NES just for nostalgia's sake, but that would be taking resources away from developing games for their current consoles and Nintendo needs all of the help they can get to compete with Sony and MS.

A Black Falcon
Now you're just repeating to me what I've been saying about you for years now. You can't even come up with your own reasons for disliking me! You're the most annoying person in the entire universe ABF, and you do not deserve any sympathy from me.

That wasn't repeating you. That was my honest opinion.

What makes you think that?

Rumors from neo-geo.com mostly.

"Charms and ideosyncracies" like low resolutions and poor processing power? Yeah, that sure is charming.

As I said you don't get it and that is sad. :(

And DJ I don't see how you can just ignore the controller like that. As I said the controller is the most obvious and important part of each console's uniqueness!

And consoles... I don't think they have the RAM for whole carts yet, not with the rest of the stuff you'd need to get it to run too (and remember that the console version will be larger because they changed the game with things like upgraded backgrounds a Neo couldn't do)

OB1
That wasn't repeating you. That was my honest opinion.

Which is what I said about you. You just copied me to be even more annoying.

As I said you don't get it and that is sad.

And DJ I don't see how you can just ignore the controller like that. As I said the controller is the most obvious and important part of each console's uniqueness!

And consoles... I don't think they have the RAM for whole carts yet, not with the rest of the stuff you'd need to get it to run too (and remember that the console version will be larger because they changed the game with things like upgraded backgrounds a Neo couldn't do)

There are no advantages to using older hardware. Not one single one. If the developers wanted to they could make games with those same specs. But they don't because that would be retarded. And yes it's true like DJ said that they would be more familiar with old hardware, but they'd be so much more limited that it would be completely pointless.

A Black Falcon
Which is what I said about you. You just copied me to be even more annoying.

That is just not true! Disbelieve me if you want but any similarities are not because of me copying you. They are because you annoy me in ways that evidently are similar to the way I annoy you! ... didn't think of that, did you? It's the truth. I can't say anything more than that.

There are no advantages to using older hardware. Not one single one. If the developers wanted to they could make games with those same specs. But they don't because that would be retarded. And yes it's true like DJ said that they would be more familiar with old hardware, but they'd be so much more limited that it would be completely pointless.

And you're calling ME stupid.

OB1
That is just not true! Disbelieve me if you want but any similarities are not because of me copying you. They are because you annoy me in ways that evidently are similar to the way I annoy you! ... didn't think of that, did you? It's the truth. I can't say anything more than that.

Suuuuure.

And you're calling ME stupid.

Why, why yes I am!

Great retort, btw. You really proved me wrong there with that great argument.

A Black Falcon
No, I gave up on you.

OB1
:whatever:

A Black Falcon
You're too thick headed to be worth the time... I mean, now you're accusing me of lying! Not nice.

Great Rumbler
Hey this is just like that one show that I've never seen but have been told is EXACTLY like this!

OB1
What the hell is ABF talking about? It's like he's responding to his imaginary retarded friend or something.

A Black Falcon
The main problem for this thread is that you can't understand why anyone would ever still like older hardware... sad. Really.

As for why I said you are accusing me of lying... umm... I said 'my explanation of why you are annoying was not copying you'. Then you say that it was. I say it was not. I should know, I wrote it. So saying otherwise is OBVIOUSLY accusing me of lying! How much clearer does it have to get? It's not nice and it's not accurate. I know you like to insult, but it's just not right...

Great Rumbler
I'm all for playing old games, but that doesn't mean I don't want games to move forward too.

OB1
Hey I feel a bit nostalgic when I crack out my old TRS80, but I sure as hell wouldn't want anyone to start making games for it instead of newer PCs.

A Black Falcon
It doesn't mean I don't want games to move forward either of course...

And there are people who make games for old systems. Not officially of course, but they do... are they all stupid?

OB1
No, because they are just garage developers. If bigger companies like Nintendo or Konami were to go back and make games for older systems, they would definitely be stupid.

A Black Falcon
Whatever.

Great Rumbler
Not "whatever"! FORever!