Zelda

No not that other discussion, at least not mostly...

Anyway, I know many people say that Oracles follow up LA, but based on the games that's impossible! Just play them. While the LInks look similar he's a whole lot younger in Oracles than in LA... and the LA one is identical to the one in the LttP manual... the only thing I don't know is what the LOZ/AoL Link looks like. Could anyone help there? :) If that also looks like the LttP Link then LA could be after several games... OoT/MM? I don't know. You'd need to accept that Link doesn't leave for years because as of MM that Link is still young and the LA Link is older. LttP makes the most sense, really. I know it's not a definite but it's about as certain a maybe as you can get. :)

So the question is then when is Oracles? I know it's some generic time but it'd be nice to pin it down a bit more because everything else fits... but Oracles? It's a quite young Link, but he's not the WW Link for sure and he can't be the LttP Link because that one's too old when he starts out his quest much less after it's over... OoT/MM? I don't know. It could be. Link looks kind of similar and is also young. And in the intro he's on a horse... again I don't know what the Zelda 1/2 Links look like. I'd need the game manuals I think, to rule that in or out. But I'd bet he'd be too old... though it could go in between the games or something? But you need to factor in how the Triforce is there, in the castle, at the time. I don't know when it was for sure... but between the horse and the age I'm kind of leaning towards OoT/MM...

So why did I bring this up again? Well I was looking through my GB manuals (and the new LttP one) and noticed how LttP Link is the same as the one in the LA intro (and similar to the older Link in OoT, you know...) and then checked Oracles and noted the age and if you believe that the theory that OoA/S comes either after LA or after LttP are all impossible.

Old news? Maybe, I don't remember. But I wanted to say it anyway. :)

Well, I certainly didn't think that. The explanation I've heard before is that it occurs after OOT/MM, but that's also flawed because in that era, the triforce was sent into the sacred realm and couldn't possibly be accessible. Wind Waker also isn't possible for the same reason (unless something happens in the next GCN Zelda to allow for it). This only leaves room for them occuring after Zelda 2 when the triforce was finally fully recovered, but then the age problem shows up again. Link in Zelda 2 is clearly an adult (well, late teen early adult), and in fact it's an important story point. Nope to that as well. Even by saying it's another world inside the triforce these things proove it couldn't be using any existing Link or era.

Essentially, the only way it works sensibly, especially since the idea of it all occuring within the triforce doesn't really hold water with absolutely nothing to show it's the case (occam's razor, simplest explanation is the right one), is the alternate reality thing. The Zelda world already has alternate realities, like the Dark World (and it's magical connection to the light world), and the world of Termina that Link visits in Majora's Mask. This one is simply the first to occur completely seperate from the main Zelda world. However, I don't think it can even be attached to the same MULTIVERSE as the normal Zelda world, because it's made rather clear that, even across multiple realities, the triforce is one of a kind since there isn't a double of it in the light world in LTTP. Though, I suppose it's possible that the Trinity created many triforces on many worlds across the multiverse. I think though it might be best to consider it a Zelda storyline completely outside the normal Zelda games. Four Swords I think also falls under this, as it doesn't really fit anywhere either. Maybe thought they both occur in the SAME world unto themselves though. Perhaps the Capcom games should be thought of as "outside" the normal Zelda universe.

Think of what, how the age rules out LA/LttP? :)

Well, there is one LA scenario that isn't ruled out -- if LA is in its own universe, not a sequel to any of the other games, and OoA/S comes before it. It's a similar looking LInk, he's younger in Oracles and older in LA, and LA says that Link is going out after being a hero at home and getting bored or something. But of course then you start talking about where LA goes again... and see how it fits in too many places. :) I mean it looks exactly like the LttP Link, but the Older Link in OoT (ie if you set LA years after OoT, when that Link grows up) could be close enough, or as you say after AoL... that's three (four if you add 'sequel to OoA/S', five if you add 'sequel to something that doesn't exist) and ALL FIVE are plausible and at this point, I think, cannot be ruled out! Argh... Nintendo needs to tie down this serieses story better... :)

I was just pointing out that if you believe the ages they show the most popular placement of Oracles, which is the LttP Link era, is false. I know it looked good with the Triforce and all but ... sorry. :)

Hmm... right, you're right about the Triforce and the OoT/MM Link, it was hidden or something wasn't it? ... and how about WW? I know it'll probably tie this up in the rest of the game but it's still funny that after LttP said how the Sacred Realm had been closed since the Imprisoning War, which is OoT, WW brings in Ganon and the Triforce in between the two...

And I thought age would rule out the Link of LoZ/AoL. Oh, was he about the same age in both games? Ie is the LoZ Link (manual; ingame is of course useless here) also that 'teenage' look? I bet he is... so it can't be that one... so all that is left ... wait we ruled out four of the serieses (OoT/MM, WW/Four Swords, LttP, LoZ/AoL... and after LA whenever that is. The only situation that puts it in the same universe as the other games is one where LA is a independant game and not a sequel (despite how clear it is that it's a sequel to LttP) and Oracles comes before that with the same Link. Oh and it's at some point where once again Ganon escapes, and the Triforce for some reason is in the castle... now I have no idea how you could reconcile that to the rest of the Zelda story, which is why it seems a very flimsy supposition, but the only other alternative is to go with the 'alternate universes' thing, and I don't like that because it seems to be kind of dodging the bullet of putting the story together...


Oh, and I called this thread just 'Zelda' because i meant to also talk about LttP again now that I have it and have played more. So should I do that now or wait until I get farther into the game... oh I'll make a few comments.

-Very dissapointing to see the deaths counter removed, I loved it in the older Zelda games.
-LttP Link still looks funny and has a weird sword-swing animation that I just don't like (compared especially to LA)
-The graphic style in LttP does grow on you, but I just don't really like the character designs... oh I know they fit the world well (I do like the world graphics for the most part, they're fine), but ... I just don't like the character designs that much. I played LA right after playing LttP and, well, while some things like the buildings, etc are similar the characters are noticably different. I prefer the LA ones. Oh I know that the GB limitations forced some change, but it was change for the better...
-Also, the game is tough. A lot of enemies seem to move so fast... :) I've died like 10 times now at least (maybe 15 on the high end) and I'm about to go into the mysterious woods and get the sword... I've pretty much gotten used to it, but I played LA after and that one the enemies don't seem to go as fast... take the Mini Moldorms. They move a lot quicker in LttP! And those little red guys who shoot, and the soldiers seem faster too (maybe)... is it just me?
-I really like how LA has a shield that actually WORKS. Useless arrow-blocker shield! :)
-Navigating the item menu is kind of a pain. It should be like LA where you can select the empty spaces.
-About the arguement over the map. I know that I haven't seen anything new from last time we had this arguement (based on me playing the rom that time), but having played it recently I think I understand why I said LA has a larger map... you're right, OB1, it doesn't. But as I said it makes better use of the space it has. LttP has lots of huge open empty areas that take up as much as four times the space LA puts similar-ish areas into... with no purpose but filling up more space. Okay it makes the world bigger but in areas it's a lot sparser than LA. LA puts a lot into that map with greatly varied terrain...
-Oh, and my point that LttP has a 'center and 8 locations around it' map is absolutely accurate. It's iike your center point (pyramid or castle), and a different locale in each of the 8 directions in a ring around it... LA as I said before mixes it up a lot more, with areas all connected and mixed together and not just in two simple rings. I like that more and it's that diversity (more variation and a more interesting map, and more compact things -- as I observed when you posted that LttP map the trees in that game are 4 times larger than trees in LA... it just has a more interesting map than LttP. Oh LttP is great, but the map is less imaginitive for sure.
-LA is still better. :D

I was AGREEING with you about the age! I was saying "I certainly don't believe that" as in I don't believe the theory that it occured after LTTP/LA. I myself do place LA after LTTP.

Yeesh, pay attention to context.

Oh um, LTTP SO does have a death counter, it SO does and it's like you just don't even know! YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW! Try a no death and no save game like I did and you learn, you LEARN, oh you learn... you learn... *mutters to self and falls asleep* *is startled awake* Hmmwhaaa? You don't SEE how many times you've died until you beat it though, then it shows it on the file selection screen. It also has it on the GBA version, but it's been altered so it doesn't count saves as deaths.

[QUOTE=A Black Falcon]

-Very dissapointing to see the deaths counter removed, I loved it in the older Zelda games.
It's there. As DJ said, you don't see it until you beat the game.
-Also, the game is tough. A lot of enemies seem to move so fast... :) I've died like 10 times now at least (maybe 15 on the high end) and I'm about to go into the mysterious woods and get the sword... I've pretty much gotten used to it, but I played LA after and that one the enemies don't seem to go as fast... take the Mini Moldorms. They move a lot quicker in LttP! And those little red guys who shoot, and the soldiers seem faster too (maybe)... is it just me?
LTTP is tougher than OOT and Wind Waker, for sure, but it's not nearly as hard as the first two Zelda games are. Though, honestly, if you're having problems like that this early in the game, you're in some trouble, because the difficulty ramps up considerably after you get the Master Sword.
-I really like how LA has a shield that actually WORKS. Useless arrow-blocker shield! :)
Yes, if you want to waste a space using it. I never did. :D
-Navigating the item menu is kind of a pain. It should be like LA where you can select the empty spaces.
Why would you want to select empty spaces?
-Oh, and my point that LttP has a 'center and 8 locations around it' map is absolutely accurate. It's iike your center point (pyramid or castle), and a different locale in each of the 8 directions in a ring around it... LA as I said before mixes it up a lot more, with areas all connected and mixed together and not just in two simple rings. I like that more and it's that diversity (more variation and a more interesting map, and more compact things -- as I observed when you posted that LttP map the trees in that game are 4 times larger than trees in LA... it just has a more interesting map than LttP. Oh LttP is great, but the map is less imaginitive for sure.
-LA is still better. :D
Eh... if you say so. I felt LA had some good points but in the end was not as good as LTTP. LA, for one, was too easy. LTTP still gets me when I let my guard down (as opposed to OOT, which, while I've played it less than LTTP, does not challenge me anymore.)

Weltall brings up a good point. When you can only use one item at a time anyway, LTTP's selection system is BETTER than LA's. You just point to it and unpause. Sure when you are used to pressing a button to assing an item to it, it can be tough, and in the Zelda games that worked like that, it's better. However, the Zelda 1 & LTTP method is plenty fine. Also, why would you want to point to empty spaces? As he said, they're empty. What, you would like to be able to completely unequip the Y button? You'd loose that ability once you got all the items anyway. I myself kept the boomerang item in there most of the time because well, I like to stun my enemies.

Oh, regarding the shield, all Zelda games before LA involved just using your movement to guard rather than a guard button. The shield was always still VERY useful, just not as useful as it can get in LA. It blocks arrows and other projectiles (more as you get stronger shields) and that's all it was ever meant for, aside from Zelda 2 where it protected from just about every attack. I'll add that I usually had my shield and sword combo equipped at all times in LA. This is just like using the Master Sword in OOT, I just prefer having more protection to having more power (also, that's why I picked the blue tunic rather than the red one in the remake). I figure the best offense is a good defense, to reverse a phrase. It doesn't matter if you aren't doing as much damage if you can protect yourself while charging up a whirl attack. On that note, in Zelda 2 I always used the shield spell (essentially doubling your life) rather than using something like the fire spell (giving you a powerful fire blast attack from your sword even when not at full health). I don't ALWAYS use this strat mind you. If an attack is REALLY overpowering, I'll be able to defeat my enemy in just a couple moves so I'll just completely charge into them without any cares of defense in those cases. For example (though this is an extreme example using something that's ALMOST cheating), when I'm Oni Link going against Odalwa in Majora's Mask.

LttP is my favorite Zelda game, and I definitely like it more than LA. I love LA immensly, but it's definitely no LttP.

And I think you guys are reading into the story too much. I don't think Nintendo even cares. I doubt they were thinking "man, this doesn't really make sense if it takes place after OoT, does it?". They have showed very little interest in making the whole story fit together. Just look at NOA's terrible job of it. Maybe someone at Nintendo knows how all of the games fit together, but I doubt it.

I'm fairly certain Miyamoto cares about the story, since the game's story seems specially designed to enhance the gameplay. Without the story, it would be really hard to truly get into the whole experience, and I'm pretty sure Miyamoto knows it. Considering how well all the EAD-made games in the series fit together, almost perfectly in fact, I believe they do care enough about it to make it consistant. In fact, all together it makes for a really great compelling story. It's just that the Capcom games don't fit in at all, and I think perhaps it's best to just leave them out. Just ABF, it IS dodging the bullet, but since it doesn't fit at all, and Japan does this sort of thing ALL the time (look at the 3 billion gundam series that couldn't possibly be occuring in the same world), I think that's exactly what they intended to do, just create an unrelated side story for the plot they had in mind.

And now, showing off the amazing graphics engine of the next Zelda game, right here, I present you with this stunning, high resolution rendering of the inside of a treasure chest in the game!

Oh I know that they care about the story for each individual game, but I don't think there's some grand plan to fit all of the games into one whole plot, just a rough "I think it'll work" idea.. It just doesn't make much sense, and there is still no definitive, official explanation for the entire Zelda story. The story is there to enhance the gameplay, yes, but I don't think they care that they're basically reusing the same story with most of the games. I actually like LA's story the most since it's so dream-like and surreal and you're really not 100% sure what happened and where it all fits, which actually works for it. WW's was told the best of course, but I like LA's better. Until NCL releases a real, definitive explanation for Zelda or tries to fit everything together in a future game, I'm not going to believe that it's a major concern for them.


Okay, here's how it is with Gundam. It's complicated, but it all makes perfect sense. There's the original, main timeline called the UC timeline, which stands for "Universal Century". The original Mobile Suit Gundam takes place in UC 0079, which is where it all started. The only series that take place in the UC timeline are the original Gundam, Zeta Gundam (which takes place in 0087), ZZ Gundam (takes place right after Zeta), the three OVAs Gundam 0080, Gundam 0083, 08th MS Team (takes place during the same time as the original Gundam), the movie Char's Counterattack (UC 0093), the movie Gundam F91 (UC 0123), and finally the most recent UC series V Gundam, which takes place in UC 0153. Those are the only series that take place in the original timeline. Then there are "Alternate Universe" Gundam series which have nothing to do with the UC storyline. Those are G Gundam, Gundam Wing, Gundam X, Turn-A Gundam (the best AU Gundam by far); Gundam SEED, and the silly SD Gundam which doesn't really count. :D

Ah SD Gundam is cute :D.

You know, I also liked LA's story a lot. There was a lot of depth that was hinted at rather than explicitly stated. Also, that ending really left you wondering what happened to Link...

LA is the hardest fit, so I'm not really certain on that, but everything else fits perfectly only one way and not at all in any other way. They don't NEED to tell me that's correct, it's THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD that proves it. OOT is obviously the imprisoning war because that's just what it has to be, for example. OOT and MM are OBVIOUSLY linked together. It's obvious that OOT was specifically designed around the past that LTTP talked about, only heavily expanded. LTTP was announced from the start that it was going to reveal Ganon's origins and be in an era long before Zelda 1. Those two things are evidene enough to me that they cared about how the story linked up with each game.

Wind Waker is the only one to kinda muck that up. On the one hand, it DOES help explain story continuity (and in fact to some degree I'm fairly certain this was part of the aim in setting the story in that time), but on the OTHER hand, what's the deal with Ganon having escaped here? THAT says that while they care about continuity, they ALSO care about giving us what we want, which apparently is Ganon and the Triforce, even if they can't come up with an explanation for HOW he escaped. I mean, originally it was thought that Ganon couldn't break the seal at all from his side and had to create an alter-ego body to escape and find a way to open it up. Perhaps the seal wasn't so perfect after all, and it was only by using the actual power of the triforce itself that the seal was made nearly impossible to break through...

You know, it's just that a lot of what they do with the stories makes it clear they DO care about making it all fit together, but that one Wind Waker thing says they aren't above confusing us when they really want to do something with the game.

Eh, with enough imagination you can pretty much put together the timeline any way you want to, with some exceptions (obviously MM takes place right after OoT and obviously WW takes place after OoT). It's not like other games where the developers have a grand plan and reveal the pieces one by one and know exactly where each piece goes, it's more like they intentionally keep the stories vague in order to leave lots of room for different ideas or alterations in the future. It does seem that the current Zelda developers do care about the story and are beginning to turn it into one whole, cohesive myth, but even then there are some missteps, like the whole Ganon thing you mentioned.

Um, but that wouldn't obey occam's razor would it?

Simplest explanation is the correct one!

LTTP was ANNOUNCED to be before Zelda 1, a history of a previous unrelated Link. That's why it's called Link to the PAST you see. OOT is obviously the imprisoning war. No other explanation works, but that one fits perfectly, almost like it was planned that way, which it was (there's a reason the translation for LTTP for GBA finally used sages rather than wise men). Zelda 2's storyline uses Zelda 1's Link, and it's stated many times in the storyline and is a very important plot point. Aside from LA, everything fits perfectly ONLY in one way. Ya gotta admit that.

Zelda 1, 2, LA, and the oracles games don't really have an absolutely definite place in the timeline. It's all guesswork. And then there are some plotholes with WW.

First. I was looking some more at the manual to Oracle of Seasons... there might be an out to our biggest problem with this.

A New Chapter
One day in Hyrule, a strange force drew Link deep within Hyrule castle, where he found the Triforce resting, glittering brillinatly as it awaited him.
"Link... Link... Accept the quest of the Triforce!"
Suddenly Link was enveloped in a shaft of light, and the next moment, he vanished. ...

He found the Triforce awaiting him there. Now that doesn't mean that the Triforce is in this period KEPT in the castle, just that it was there to summon him to stop the plot to bring back Ganon... but the OoT-Link still has the issue of the Triforce being sealed away. Well if the Sacred Realm was so secure then how does Ganon keep getitng out... :) And if Ganon can why not the Triforce to stop him? I mean the Triforce is certainly stronger than Ganon... okay this may not work but it should be thought about. I don't like escaping with 'it's a alternate universe' which right now is our best option.

Or it could just be some other Link we hadn't seen before, who the Triforce is summoning... but how about one other thing -- how about Twinrova? I mean you killed Koume and Kotake, I thought, so how are they still around... but given that they are dead we can't say that 'they are there so it has to be OoT-era unless they live a really long time' because ... well they died... :D

This goes into the WW continuity thing of course (Ganon in WW, Triforce in Oracles...). You're right they have problems. At least Oracles explained how Ganon was to escape! In WW he just ... does ... and the Triforce is also in Hyrule despite how if you believe OoT it probably also should be stuck in the Sacred Realm... obviously they got out somehow but how that happened without the Dark World stuff invading (like in LttP) and all... it just makes no sense... but it happens before this game starts. Maybe we could have a prequel? :)

Of course saying 'Oracles is right after OoT/MM but they made a continuity error' is stupid. If you want to believe it's after OoT (I think it makes more sense than putting it anywhere else) then ... um we'd better think of how the Triforce can get out of the Sacred Realm so that it could warn Link and send him on a quest to stop Ganon from coming back! Er... maybe the attempt to free Ganon weakened it or something and the Triforce got out but Ganon couldn't? ... okay that's a bit implausible but it's all I can think of...

I was AGREEING with you about the age! I was saying "I certainly don't believe that" as in I don't believe the theory that it occured after LTTP/LA. I myself do place LA after LTTP.

Yeesh, pay attention to context.

Yeah I don't believe my theory that LA was standalone and Oracles comes before it either, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense... :)

Zelda 1, 2, LA, and the oracles games don't really have an absolutely definite place in the timeline. It's all guesswork. And then there are some plotholes with WW.

1 and 2 happen after LttP! And didn't the LttP manual say how far before the original two it was? But then we get into what the original Japanese versions say... you mentioned that here but I don't know how to factor it in. I don't know what those versions say so all I have to go on is our manuals...

And LA isn't CERTAIN but as DJ says there are just so many hooks to LttP that it's easily the most sensible place for the game to fit. Oh people wanting to put it elsewhere can I guess but after LttP is just the one that m[QUOTE]akes sense far more than anywhere else, in many ways.

[QUOTE]It's there. As DJ said, you don't see it until you beat the game.

Ah... didn't know that. Nice.

LTTP is tougher than OOT and Wind Waker, for sure, but it's not nearly as hard as the first two Zelda games are. Though, honestly, if you're having problems like that this early in the game, you're in some trouble, because the difficulty ramps up considerably after you get the Master Sword.

The enemies just seem to move really quickly, faster than LA (I played it right after to be sure and yup the baddies and their projectiles just seem faster in LttP) for sure. I wonder why... it makes the game pretty hard. Well that and how when you get hit you usually lose a full heart...

And what do you call 'having problems'? I'm currently in the first dungeon in the Dark World. I did beat the third Pendant dungeon (in mountains) without dying. I did use two faries in my bottles, true, and it did help that the boss just knocks you down and doesn't kill you like other bosses... but I didn't die... in the first part of the game I died more because I had to get used to how fast the enemies are. I think I am now.

Yes, if you want to waste a space using it. I never did.

Waste a space? Huh? As DJ says the shield in LA has a lot of uses! Okay in many situations I would like to have something like the Roc's Feather, or Pegasus Boots, or Hookshot or Bow or something to have two weapons (though usually I'd have one weapon and one something else, not always), but in LA the shield has many uses.

(same subject)
Oh, regarding the shield, all Zelda games before LA involved just using your movement to guard rather than a guard button. The shield was always still VERY useful, just not as useful as it can get in LA. It blocks arrows and other projectiles (more as you get stronger shields) and that's all it was ever meant for, aside from Zelda 2 where it protected from just about every attack. I'll add that I usually had my shield and sword combo equipped at all times in LA. This is just like using the Master Sword in OOT, I just prefer having more protection to having more power (also, that's why I picked the blue tunic rather than the red one in the remake). I figure the best offense is a good defense, to reverse a phrase. It doesn't matter if you aren't doing as much damage if you can protect yourself while charging up a whirl attack. On that note, in Zelda 2 I always used the shield spell (essentially doubling your life) rather than using something like the fire spell (giving you a powerful fire blast attack from your sword even when not at full health). I don't ALWAYS use this strat mind you. If an attack is REALLY overpowering, I'll be able to defeat my enemy in just a couple moves so I'll just completely charge into them without any cares of defense in those cases. For example (though this is an extreme example using something that's ALMOST cheating), when I'm Oni Link going against Odalwa in Majora's Mask.

In LA most of the time I'd have the sword and an item... shield sometimes but more often one of the others. The feather is one of my favorites... I like to be able to jump. :) But I do equip the shield a fair amount because it's so useful, between how it not just blocks attacks but can push enemies, etc... but you clearly use the shield a lot more than I do.

I really, really like LA's item switch system. I know they let you switch everything because there are just two buttons so you can't do something like OoT, but it works so well... okay it means you have to switch items more often than in the other games but that's a price I don't mind paying. :)

... on that subject ...

Why would you want to select empty spaces?
(same)
Weltall brings up a good point. When you can only use one item at a time anyway, LTTP's selection system is BETTER than LA's. You just point to it and unpause. Sure when you are used to pressing a button to assing an item to it, it can be tough, and in the Zelda games that worked like that, it's better. However, the Zelda 1 & LTTP method is plenty fine. Also, why would you want to point to empty spaces? As he said, they're empty. What, you would like to be able to completely unequip the Y button? You'd loose that ability once you got all the items anyway. I myself kept the boomerang item in there most of the time because well, I like to stun my enemies.

Why would I rather select empty spaces? Because I still have trouble navigating the item menu in LA... the items are scattered around this box and pressing a direction doesn't always get you where you want to go in the box. I guess with time you get used to it but it'd be so much simpler if you could just select each of the boxes so you'd just have to move over to that box... as I said like LA where you can select all the boxes and not like LttP where it skips to the next occupied spot. And it especially matters with the larger LttP inventory... I've played this game for hours and the stupid menu still is a pain to get around. I get used to it but making people get used to something annoying isn't really the best way to solve a problem in a game. :)

Oh, and unequipping is just a nice bonus you get from a easier to navigate items menu.

DJ, I wasn't even thinking of how you end the menu. That I guess doesn't matter much... LA does have the two buttons to put it on that button but just hitting A or something in LttP isn't much of a difference.


Eh... if you say so. I felt LA had some good points but in the end was not as good as LTTP. LA, for one, was too easy. LTTP still gets me when I let my guard down (as opposed to OOT, which, while I've played it less than LTTP, does not challenge me anymore.)

Oh I admit a big part of it's probably nostalgia, but hey... I can't deny that that colors how I like games, just like everyone...

And LA was really hard! It's easy now that I've beaten it five times or so, but the first time... really hard game... and it's still easy to die a fair amount in the game. I do have a no-deaths game but that took a lot of trying to get through...

The oracle games don't fit at all yes. For that matter, Soul Calibur 2 also doesn't fit anywhere (that's now part of the Zelda multiverse too ya know). LA it's guesswork. 1 and 2 however have been stated, officially, as being AFTER LTTP. Yes, I know NOA is very ridiculous with the time lines, especially with the one where they tried making it all work with ONE Link, but there was a time when they just translated stuff from Japan to report their information, and that's how it's confirmed that LTTP is supposed to be before 1 and 2. It fits that way, because they had to occur while Hyrule kingdom was in possession of the Triforce, and the only OTHER time something close to that was the case is OOT, where they had the key to the REALM where the triforce lies, though not the actual triforce itself. That is confirmed to be the first appearence of Ganondorf, so 1 and 2 couldn't be before that. Between OOT and LTTP (including wind waker) the triforce is locked away, only occasionally showing up for a major plot point only to immediatly return to the dark world. So, it had to be AFTER LTTP. For that matter, it had to be a long time after, so the people would forget of the events in LTTP. In fact, that's part of LTTP, saying the old legends of what Ganon did long ago (what became OOT) had been forgotten (I think they had that part purposefully to explain why no one in Zelda 1 had any idea of LTTP).

In any case, a lot of the story is perfectly placed in the time line. OOT, MM, WW, (Zelda GCN 2, yes WW2 is a rather odd way to put it, considering the OTHER thing it stands for), LTTP, Hyrule Fantasy, and Adventure of Link all are very certainly fitting. LA is the one EAD-made game who's fit could be anywhere, and the ONLY one of them.

With enough imagination sure you could switch them around, but you are missing the point of occam's razor. Occam's razor is a principle that states, essentially, that the explanation with the least number of entities required for perfectly accurate description of some phenomenon is the one that should be deemed correct. The instance the explanation doesn't perfectly describe it, THEN you add on extra entities. However, the point is that one should never needlessly add on extra facets to an explanation if there is a simpler one that perfectly describes the situation. That way lies madness. One could easily (well, not easily) make a VERY complicated yet perfectly accurate model of the laws of physics, even unto sounding ridiculous. However, since it's much more complicated and using far more entities than is needed while a simpler explanation perfectly explains the same thing, that one must be deemed incorrect. Now, LA fits in a lot of places with an equal amount of simplicity. It can even fit in after Wind Waker. Everything else however can only be made to fit with a more complicated explanation, thus they are wrong. Show that this more complicated explanation is the only one that accuratly describes it and the simpler explanation doesn't and then you have my attention.

Now, as for the 3rd party made storylines, the Oracles, Four Swords, and Soul Calibur 2, the simplest explanation is to consider them unrelated side stories. Making it actually fit INTO the story is more complicated and requires ignoring a lot of plot holes that would be created in the process.

Don't get me wrong, there IS a place for needlessly complicated stuff like that. For example, anyone writing some fan fiction might WANT to put the games in a different order and come up with a nice explanation for how that would work. No problem with that in that case. It's when you are trying to nail down the originally intended storyline by itself where adding on more than the minimum needed to explain it is a bad thing.

Regarding your Oracles explanation, there's a flaw there. The Triforce in the EAD games is specifically stated to be completely unable to tell the difference between good and evil. In fact, it's "essance" explains the whole concept to you at the end of LTTP. That's why it granted all of Ganon's wishes. For that reason alone the Triforce of the MAIN series couldn't have gone to Link for help. In fact, that whole bit of the story was the main thing convincing me it had to be some alternate storyline. The Triforce just acted so different in those worlds, being a lot more involved and actually seeking out Link as opposed to being indifferent and detached. Also, since Ganon has the entire Triforce, the seal was made to actually guard against the triforce's power by redirecting it right back into the Dark World. That's why Ganon had to create an alter ego that was devoid of the Triforce's power to get through. There's just no easy way to get those games to fit I'm afraid. Yes I too would love to find a way to get it all in one continuity. I myself am also not really a fan. However, I really think that Miyamoto may have actually told Capcom that their games wouldn't be part of the main storyline so they could do whatever they wanted to without worrying about continuity.

DJ, Nintendo changes the details of the storyline so often that I wouldn't take some ancient explanation to still be valid today. The way NOA treated the story just further proves my point that there is no definitive answer out there. If there is then why keep it a secret? Maybe Zelda 1 and 2 will be remade one day like Metroid was, and they will make things more clear.

BTW I'm well aware of what Occam's razor is. :p

Well the thing is that's NOA. They just don't even care about stuff outside of releasing the games and occasionally making some commercials.

However, what I was talking about is not just what NOA said, but a translated quote of Miyamoto in an old issue of Nintendo Power.

Well, good that you know what the razor is. You just weren't acting like you knew.

Well that was way back when, I don't know if he'd say the same thing. That's my point, we don't know for certain. We can only make educated guesses.

NOA made that horrible timeline because... well yes because they don't care, but also because there's no official EAD timeline.

Not really guesses, educated determining. Enough facts are here that we can BE certain about it. That's the thing. We don't have to actually have it told to have all the evidence we need. When it comes down to it, you can't proove anything with 100% certainty. In fact that's physically impossible :D. Thus, once it's within REASONABLE certainty, it's considered proven by scientific standards.

I do see your point though. It'd be nice for EAD to release some sort of timeline and TRANSLATE it for us. I'm fairly certain there are a few in Japanese from them :D. Meanwhile, I'll go with what's been said before regarding LTTP and OOT from them, even if it was some time ago EAD never once took it back.

Regarding your Oracles explanation, there's a flaw there. The Triforce in the EAD games is specifically stated to be completely unable to tell the difference between good and evil. In fact, it's "essance" explains the whole concept to you at the end of LTTP. That's why it granted all of Ganon's wishes. For that reason alone the Triforce of the MAIN series couldn't have gone to Link for help. In fact, that whole bit of the story was the main thing convincing me it had to be some alternate storyline. The Triforce just acted so different in those worlds, being a lot more involved and actually seeking out Link as opposed to being indifferent and detached. Also, since Ganon has the entire Triforce, the seal was made to actually guard against the triforce's power by redirecting it right back into the Dark World. That's why Ganon had to create an alter ego that was devoid of the Triforce's power to get through. There's just no easy way to get those games to fit I'm afraid. Yes I too would love to find a way to get it all in one continuity. I myself am also not really a fan. However, I really think that Miyamoto may have actually told Capcom that their games wouldn't be part of the main storyline so they could do whatever they wanted to without worrying about continuity.

Then why did the Triforce send Link to those worlds? Explain it if it wasn't to stop Ganon... :)

And then we return to Ganon in WW... how do you explain THAT one away?

Read the whole thing. My point was that the trifoce is that it's a completely different universe with a totally different triforce, meaning it wouldn't fit. I don't need to explain THAT triforce's motivation because my point was just that the triforce of the MAIN series wouldn't do that. The one in the oracle side story series DOES seem to have a sense of good and evil though. Also, considering that Zelda easily just walked to those lands herself, as well as Impa, I think we can safely say those two lands are just other countries beyond Hyrule, not other worlds. The triforce just had to send him there quickly.

And yes, Wind Waker is tough, but it's absolutely confirmed by Miyamoto and most other elements in the plot that it IS within the timeline. So, as for that, the simplest explanation I can come up with is one of these two. The first is that the "ganon" you face in Wind Waker is actually just a shadow created by Ganon (just like Agahnim), which makes sense since when you "kill" him he turns to stone. He's perhaps much more directly controlled, and Ganon realized his flaw in making him so recognizable, so his next incarnation was created to be much more subtle and unassuming, one who could do what it needed to do without raising suspicion, and hence another hero to stop him. That's actually my fave. The other one that's equally simple, but not quite as interesting, and rather insulting to one's intelligence, is that the first seal wasn't perfect and so Ganon was able to escape whole. The Hero of Winds however strengthened the seal when he defeated Ganon at the end, turning the form in the light world to stone as he was forced into the dark world. Both are the simplest ones (more complicated ones are things like "well when the planets align, or on the second day of the second year of the second random event") I could come up with to explain it. I like the first one the most, as it explains the end rather well with the whole turning to stone thing, and also why he never really transforms into the full on horror we all know and love (the closest is that demon puppet, but that's not really him).

Oh yes, not to forget that in fact according to WW, that wasn't the first escape either, as Ganon actually broke free AGAIN shortly after OOT, but the Hero of Time apparently was nowhere to be found (for whatever reason, possibly because he was off in another land searching for navi, or maybe because he fell into darkness far away, in the land where the next Zelda will take place and the Hero of Winds must redeem the Hero of Time... wow that would be so cool...), so the Trinity flooded the lands. I suppose that either he was merely subdued and wasn't actually sent back to the golden, OR, that form he used to break out that first time was yet another shadow incarnation of himself, that one much more violent so the second time, the one you fight in WW, was just his mortal form as he figured the Trinity wouldn't bother if he wasn't going about an all out slaughter. (That is the sort of mindset he has about the 3 Goddesses, that they don't really care about the minority.)

One other thing, at first for the longest time there was only the 3 Goddesses of one mind. Then, in Wind Waker many other gods showed up. I think those are lesser gods, considering they are of things like wind that were actually CREATED by the Trinity. I believe they aren't really gods as such, but rather greater beings created by the Trinity to sort of help guide the world they created, sorta like the Valla in JRR Tolkein's work.

Read the whole thing. My point was that the trifoce is that it's a completely different universe with a totally different triforce, meaning it wouldn't fit. I don't need to explain THAT triforce's motivation because my point was just that the triforce of the MAIN series wouldn't do that. The one in the oracle side story series DOES seem to have a sense of good and evil though. Also, considering that Zelda easily just walked to those lands herself, as well as Impa, I think we can safely say those two lands are just other countries beyond Hyrule, not other worlds. The triforce just had to send him there quickly.

I don't want to have to go that far outside of the story to explain the game... it'd be unfortunate... :(

One other thing, at first for the longest time there was only the 3 Goddesses of one mind. Then, in Wind Waker many other gods showed up. I think those are lesser gods, considering they are of things like wind that were actually CREATED by the Trinity. I believe they aren't really gods as such, but rather greater beings created by the Trinity to sort of help guide the world they created, sorta like the Valla in JRR Tolkein's work.

Demigods, like Greek mythology, I think...


As for Wind Waker, yeah, they really need to have explained that better. It's a HUGE continuity flaw! HUGE! I don't understand how they just made the game without dealing at all with the major problems brought on by Ganon being here, not to mention the Triforce as well (you didn't address that part in your post... at least not your last post...)!

By not wanting to go that far outside the storyline do you mean you don't want to have to change the existing story in small ways to allow for the Oracle games (which I wouldn't want to, I found it a very important story point that the triforce had no genuine sentience to it. Or, do you mean you don't want to have to remove the gmaes from the storyline completely? Yeah, I don't want that either. However, the facts kinda need to be faced. There's really no way to reconsile those games with the established plot. While I would like to, it would seem that not only can it not be reconsiled, but regarding the Capcom games, there was never an attempt made to reconsile it. It's similar to the Megaman EXE games not being able to fit in with the Megaman/Megaman X storyline, and not even being made with that in mind.

Now as far as the triforce being in Wind Waker, that's actually explained by the game itself. Before, there was no way to know how Ganon got ahold of the pieces of Wisdom and Courage between OOT and LTTP (he only had power when he was sealed in there). It seems they broke him out JUST so they could give him the other two pieces. A large part of the game circles around Ganon finally obtaining the other two pieces. At the end of the game, one is left to assume the completed triforce was sent back to the dark world WITH Ganon.

Now, this does leave one last thing. In my explanation of how Ganon was there, the one I like anyway, I say Ganon actually just created a shadow of himself. I didn't think of the triforce of power though. How did the piece of power get sent back? Thinking about it, I believe Ganon simply sent it with his own shadow. Perhaps the triforce could pass but Ganon himself could not. He sent it with his shadow so that when the other two pieces were obtained, he could make his wish via his alternate body right away without having to bring them all back. In LTTP, he already HAD the entire triforce, so sending any piece with the new alterego would have been a foolish strategy.

Yes, I do believe that works out for explaining Ganon AND allowing for the triforce of power. As I said, the other two pieces fit in perfectly because Ganon only had the piece of power when banished, and the original Zelda and Link kept the pieces of wisdom and courage until they figured out a plan to hide it (which of course didn't work).

Demigods is a nice term. In JRR Tolkein's main works, they are actually the Heavenly Host of sorts of Illuvatar. Essentially, they are very powerful angels given control over the elements. The elves recognize this, but to the humans they are called gods. Fine term for the humans, but the elves consider it inaccurate, much like how the humans call the arts of elves and wizards magic though the elves find that incorrect, and how the humans refer to the planet itself by a name other than Eu.

By not wanting to go that far outside the storyline do you mean you don't want to have to change the existing story in small ways to allow for the Oracle games (which I wouldn't want to, I found it a very important story point that the triforce had no genuine sentience to it. Or, do you mean you don't want to have to remove the gmaes from the storyline completely? Yeah, I don't want that either. However, the facts kinda need to be faced. There's really no way to reconsile those games with the established plot. While I would like to, it would seem that not only can it not be reconsiled, but regarding the Capcom games, there was never an attempt made to reconsile it. It's similar to the Megaman EXE games not being able to fit in with the Megaman/Megaman X storyline, and not even being made with that in mind.

As in not only an alternate universe but a different Triforce that has morals or something... I want to fit it in the story somewhere... :)

Mega Man... well X is a followup to the classic ones, but EXE is a whole different universe and so is Legends...


Demigods is a nice term. In JRR Tolkein's main works, they are actually the Heavenly Host of sorts of Illuvatar. Essentially, they are very powerful angels given control over the elements. The elves recognize this, but to the humans they are called gods. Fine term for the humans, but the elves consider it inaccurate, much like how the humans call the arts of elves and wizards magic though the elves find that incorrect, and how the humans refer to the planet itself by a name other than Eu.

... you've never heard 'demigod'? Erm...


As for WW, uh, if you're letting the Triforce out of the Sacred Realm here why not for Oracles too? Oh wait you said that the biggest problem there is the impartiality issue... that is one I can't think of a good answer to...

Um, the triforce isn't being "let out". I already said it's a FACT that two of the parts have BEEN out. That's the whole story in fact, or a large part at least. Power however is still stuck there until Wind Waker. More than that, those parts are hidden and split apart across the land into many pieces that can't come together on their own. Sorry, won't work. Then after Wind Waker, the 3 parts are ALL in the sacred realm.

And look, I don't look into greek mythology that much okay? I've heard the term demihuman before, many times. Why should I have heard that though?

Not really guesses, educated determining. Enough facts are here that we can BE certain about it. That's the thing. We don't have to actually have it told to have all the evidence we need. When it comes down to it, you can't proove anything with 100% certainty. In fact that's physically impossible . Thus, once it's within REASONABLE certainty, it's considered proven by scientific standards.

I do see your point though. It'd be nice for EAD to release some sort of timeline and TRANSLATE it for us. I'm fairly certain there are a few in Japanese from them . Meanwhile, I'll go with what's been said before regarding LTTP and OOT from them, even if it was some time ago EAD never once took it back.


The fact that there are so many theories and not one single definitive timeline proves my point. That's all I'm saying.

And look, I don't look into greek mythology that much okay? I've heard the term demihuman before, many times. Why should I have heard that though?

Any polytheistic mythology, really, has demigods...

Um, the triforce isn't being "let out". I already said it's a FACT that two of the parts have BEEN out. That's the whole story in fact, or a large part at least. Power however is still stuck there until Wind Waker. More than that, those parts are hidden and split apart across the land into many pieces that can't come together on their own. Sorry, won't work. Then after Wind Waker, the 3 parts are ALL in the sacred realm.

It could work if they wanted to. As WW proves, they do whatever they want and consider the continuity-error problems later...