View Thread : If peace broke out tomorrow...


Great Rumbler
Would you be happy?

Darunia
That's too vague---peace everywhere, as in no more war or even crime anywhere on Earth?

Great Rumbler
Sure, why not?

Ryan
I'd hit it.

Great Rumbler
:D

alien space marine
That leaves only one enemy left.

Those damned martians.

Great Rumbler
And the Jovians!!

A Black Falcon
Humans are violent. Peace is impossible, on that scale.

Ryan
All living things are competitive, and as violent as they have the capacity to be. It's not just humans.

Dark Jaguar
Yeah, ever watch two monkey packs fight it out? Ever seen a killer whale drag a seal off the beach and bounce it around like a beach ball in an OBVIOUS attempt JUST to have fun with another killer whale and they never even eat it, just kinda get bored and toss it away? Humans just are smarter about it. All other creatures with brains are cruel in their own rights.

Ryan
Even ones without brains. Like, a weed that chokes grass, or a bacterium that destroys whatever it touches.

alien space marine
But the thing is if it waisnt for the killer whales , Polar bears, Sharks the seals would continue to overpopulate and drain the fishing stocks and eventually they would eat themselves out of house and home , Finally the seals would starve too death.

Right now the seals are a scourge on new found land , The cod fish are endangerd and the rising seal population is eating them all.New found landers would love too go and start hunting those critters again, But they cant thanks too tree huging hippies who think the seals are cute and have no understanding of natural balance.

A Black Falcon
Natural balance... yeah, that is important. That's why I'm not against hunting deer, for instance. I know that since we killed off the wolves we have to hunt deer or they will overpopulate and eat all the food and then starve... not good. Keeping them in balance is important and at this point only hunting can do that...

Humans, however. We are smarter than any other animals, so you'd like to think we could do more about this... and we could if we tried, but a lot of people don't try very hard.

Great Rumbler
Humans are violent. Peace is impossible, on that scale.

I never said it was a realistic goal.

alien space marine
They did a experiment in canada , PEI is a small province that is serperated by sea and isolated from the mainland in regards too animal migration.

They wanted too see how ,am not sure if it was deer or Moose or somthing like that would do if they were introduced into a enclosed section of PEI which had no predators or anything to reduce the population,around 8 females and 12 males were choosen to create a good gene pool and then they left them too live freely in the enclosed area of 16 acres.

If you have ever been too PEI it isnt a very rocky region, It is mostly all grassland and hills.

So the deer population went from 20 too 80 and then by three years there were hundreds of them . Eventually they picked all the grass and feilds clean and then large portions of the deer/moose, started too become under nurished since the land didnt create enough food to support the growing population and then hundreds died in the winter and the population shrank all the way back too 30-40 .

Ryan
Natural balance... yeah, that is important. That's why I'm not against hunting deer, for instance. I know that since we killed off the wolves we have to hunt deer or they will overpopulate and eat all the food and then starve... not good. Keeping them in balance is important and at this point only hunting can do that...

Humans, however. We are smarter than any other animals, so you'd like to think we could do more about this... and we could if we tried, but a lot of people don't try very hard.
We're smarter than any animal, by far, but we're still far from perfect.

The only way world peace could even hope to exist is if everyone were a mindless, conformed zombie. Who would want to live like that?

Sure, world peace SOUNDS good, but it would make existence extraordinarily boring.

Dark Jaguar
Not by too far mind you. On a pure technical standpoint, the difference between a dog's brain and a computer is so much greater than the difference between a dog's brain and a human's brain. It's still a big jump mind you, but it's more in the sense of design than power.

I think this was supposed to be universal peace, so the martians would be in on it too, but I still wouldn't trust them... Being all "I don't actually exist" and such...
Jerks...

Weltall, I was actually saying that humans aren't the only ones capable of cruel malicious behavior, not just that we aren't the only ones capable of violence.

Ya know Weltall, if that's the case then when do we humans ever find a time of utter peace? In heaven for sure, but would we all have to become mindless zombies for peace to work in heaven? Can it be possible that anyone could fall even while up there, and what happens to them? I'd hate to think like some Christians I know in that they think some will still sin in Heaven and when they do they are instantly sent to hell. An eternity later, no one's left up there. What would the point of salvation be if total peace wasn't possible?

For that matter, are you sure total peace is as boring as you assume? Personally I've never been a fan of conflict, nor am I bored when none is around. I strive to improve myself but aren't out to beat anyone. Is your idea of complete peace a world where no one is playing competitive games? Well, I can still imagine a way to be happy without having to compete with anyone, and still have some events and such (picnics are fun, as is flying kites and such, there's lots to do without competition), but I don't consider competing on friendly terms to be anti-peace at all. When it gets too far and people start actually getting mad at the other person, or like people who actually HATE the other team BECAUSE they are competting (you know, utterly forgetting the point and should be shot?), then it's like that, but not all competition is like that.

A Black Falcon
We're smarter than the rest of the animals sure but as everyone knows are far from perfect and animal instincts still have a lot of importance...

Dark Jaguar
Which is exactly why I plan on replacing my body with a big tub of nanobots.

alien space marine
The bible says a large crowd will stay on earth and live as healthy imortal human beings, I think that is a better existence then some fairy with a harp.

Dark Jaguar
What on Earth are you talking about? The Bible says nothing about people becoming angels. They are a seperate race. For that matter, peace will be on Earth as well as Heaven. Also, where in the Bible is a harp ever once mentioned?

Nanotech, that's the life for me.

A Black Falcon
The smartest animals are some of the great apes. They can be as smart as a young (what was it, 3 or 4 years old?) human child...

Dark Jaguar
No, WE are the smartest, then dolphins, then apes. Poachers need to be hunting them instead of stupider animals like the elephant. I wouldn't put any of those animals as being as smart as a 3 or 4 year old kid though. They can play video games at that age and talk, and CREATE.

A Black Falcon
According to some TV shows I've seen anyway some apes (Chimps maybe? But some others too... remember Koko the gorilla...) are as smart as young children. Remember they can learn several hundred words (I think) in sign language... but at some point, they can't learn any more. Like us but at a far lower level... that's all any animal is...

As for dolphins, they are obviously also smart but I think exactly how smart is contraversial... of course the fact that they are in the oceans sure doesn't help that much.

Dark Jaguar
They can learn individual words, so can some birds (and not just mimicry, but meaning), but grammar completely elludes them. Grammar is like super important for our success. The only concept more important to that is elcutletack, which is a concept that humans could never understand. Um, I think I've said too much...

alien space marine
I think they successfuly taught over a 100 sign language gestures to gorrilias.

A Black Falcon
Yeah. As for birds... I don't know. I have yet to be convinced that they can do anything more than just mimick the sounds with no understanding (of what they are saying certainly)...

But some great apes are as smart as a young child. That's not too smart on human terms but compared to anything else out there...

Darunia
I think they successfuly taught over a 100 sign language gestures to gorrilias.


Wow--that's amazing. It's almost like they're our distant relatives or something. In fact, if the Good Book didn't say otherwise, I'd almost think that humans were the evolutionary advancement of apes. Oh well.

Ryan
I think they successfuly taught over a 100 sign language gestures to gorrilias.


Wow--that's amazing. It's almost like they're our distant relatives or something. In fact, if the Good Book didn't say otherwise, I'd almost think that humans were the evolutionary advancement of apes. Oh well.
Eh... we're not the evolutionary advancement of apes, regardless. The common belief among evolutionaries is that apes and humans are spinoffs of a common ancestor.

Darunia
Regardless. My sarcastic lampoon is still effective.

Ryan
Not really, as you're assuming that every Christian interprets the Bible verbatim. Many do not. I am one of them.

alien space marine
Parrots can say 50-100 phrases and even hole songs, Does that mean were all fucking tweety bird decendants!All it is imitation and repetition.
Ive even heard of dogs who can moan words in english.

Here is a Qoute from the New scientist magazine which is from the UK.

A recent analysis of the DNA of chimpanzees and orangutans, As well as certain monkeys and macaques,Has revealed that their genetic makeup is not as similar to man's as once thought. "Large differences in DNA, Not small ones seperate apes and monkeys from both humans and each other". There are large deletions and insertions sprinkled throughout the chromosome", Explains Kelly Frazer of perlegen sciences, The california,U.S.A.,Company that did the analysis. New Scientist characterized the differences as a "yawning gap [that] divides monkeys and us"

http://www.newscientist.com/

Darunia
What the hell is with you people---you scoff and call it rediculous to believe that humans evolve from apes, but it's completely acceptably believable to believe that all-powerful deities spawn from nothing, only to disappear?

Something good happens = Thanks, God! He's always there for us!

Something bad happens = We must've made God mad--this is our fault.
(or) ...That's Satan for you!

Dark Jaguar
Darunia, what the hell are you talking about? Where do you get these ideas? Christians don't believe God spawned from nothing and then suddenly vanished. Maybe you assume we'd HAVE to believe that, but whatever...

Your other statements are just blind assumptions and generalizations. Yeesh, when we get into a Christian discussion, just stay out if you can't be nice. Go on, get out of here. That's right, it's a horrible conspiracy, whatever, just go.

ASM, I was not once saying anything about us COMING from birds. I'm saying they DO have that ability and it's proven. It's a very tough thing for them to do, and they can't comprehend more than an individual word's meaning (so they can't comprehend grammar, and thus won't ever be able to understand the full meaning of phrases as we do, such as "man bites dog", where it might know what a man is, a dog is, and what the action of biting is, but it couldn't know the relationship is between those words.

alien space marine
but it's completely acceptably believable to believe that all-powerful deities spawn from nothing, only to disappear?



How did reality suddenly appear ? If you believe in evolution then you most also believe that things spawned out of nothing,The earth just out of pure luck of trillions odds didnt turn into a acid furnace like venus, The earth could hold life and some how little tiny complexe microbes appeared and then life spread from there.

When it comes too the very start of life down to little tiny parasites , Scientist have failed too give a solid explination as too how even this low form of life started, They have tested in labs trying too reproduce basic evolution using protein and ameno acids they have all failed and havent even given just a slight infinitesimal sign of change.

Is the idea that it was crafted and engineered by a highly inteligent powerful entity any less possible.Many even think aliens created humans but who am I to say their crazy

Dark Jaguar has said everything that needs too be said.I salute him for being balanced and non judgemental.

Darunia
Where do you get these ideas? Christians don't believe God spawned from nothing and then suddenly vanished.

Oh, that's right, he never appeared or was created---he's ALWAYS been. I forgot. That's far more credible.

Your other statements are just blind assumptions and generalizations.

YOU'RE calling what I believe 'assumptions'...?

Go on, get out of here. That's right, it's a horrible conspiracy, whatever, just go.

*Sulks and pouts*

How did reality suddenly appear ?

How did God appear--neither can be proven. I find it easier to believe that "reality" suddenly spawned than an omnipowerful, all-knowing, eternal being has ALWAYS existed.

When it comes too the very start of life down to little tiny parasites , Scientist have failed too give a solid explination as too how even this low form of life started, They have tested in labs trying too reproduce basic evolution using protein and ameno acids they have all failed and havent even given just a slight infinitesimal sign of change.

I see. So, a god must've created it. Am I talking to a mature adult in the 21st century, or a ignorant Sumerian priest. Millenia had passed and humanity still turns to the boogy man, demons and gods to explain the inexplicable.

Is the idea that it was crafted and engineered by a highly inteligent powerful entity any less possible.

Yes---highly so.

Many even think aliens created humans but who am I to say their crazy

You're not crazy, you're ignorant. They're ignorant and crazy. And I'm just crazy (but not ignorant.)

Dark Jaguar has said everything that needs too be said. I salute him for being balanced and non judgemental.

In order for someone to be unbiased and non judgemental, they'd have to be without any affiliation in the matter at question. Since he's a Christian, he is neitehr balanced nor judgemental.

Great Rumbler
I'd reply to that, but that's absolutely nothing to be gained from putting myself into the middle of this. And there's also the little fact that nothing good will EVER come out of discussions like these.

Dark Jaguar
Actually ASM, you're wrong. I was being VERY unbalanced and WAS judgemental there. My point, put a little too bluntly, was that that was more or less a conversation over the finer points of things among us Christians. We weren't exactly out to debate the actual notion of believing it in the first place. Darunia however was out for blood.

And Darunia, as for you, you assumed to know what we think, so yes I am claiming you have blind assumptions. This has nothing to do with how everything came to be. You assume too much, likely because you had to sit through speeches by fundamentalists or something. While I weep for that if that's the case, bear in mind you can't judge the majority of us by the actions of those who, as far as I can tell by their behavior, likely aren't Christians themselves.

Dark Jaguar
And to take GR's advice, I'll stay out of this no matter your response. Not like something that centers around blind faith such as religion can really be proven anyway, so why try?

Fittisize
Darunia = Attention Whore

Just ignore him. Eventually he'll tire himself out.

EdenMaster
What makes the idea of Gods existence so unacceptable to you? You have no evidence to the contrary and yet to throw the idea out the window without even listening. How can you call yourself fair and balanced without knowing the other side of the story? You know basic religious beliefs but don't know much. Nor do I, I'm not a steady church going person, but I hold my beliefs because I've found no reason not to. I've found no evidence at all which suggests my beliefs are wrong, so I have no reason to question them. I believe in God, I believe what happened in the Bible, and I believe that there is an omnipresent diety around us. Why not? I don't know what sits underneath a boulder but I feel safe in assuming that it's dirt. I don't know what ASM looks like but I assume he's human (that may be a bad assumption...). Why is this any different? I simply want to know why you scoff at these beliefs so.

alien space marine
We cannot change years of ignorance and intolerance that was spooned fed to are freindly Goron anymore then we can convince the Hutus and the Tutsies that its just old irelevant tribe blood feuds, Their both black and have the same feelings and desires.

Am I talking to a mature adult in the 21st century, or a ignorant Sumerian priest. Millenia had passed and humanity still turns to the boogy man, demons and gods to explain the inexplicable.


Why does the goverment fund the O.S.I.R.? Because strange things happen and that todays simple science cannot explain.Reality is stranger then fiction.
Regardless of how many centuries past mysticism and the unknown will always fascinate people,Its part of our very phyche,You cant arogantly dismiss it but you cannot stop it.

That being said what does it matter too you what I and DJ ,Edenmaster think.
Case Closed !
Fin ~

Ryan
I've never understood what makes him so virulently anti-Christian. It's not just religion in general, he seems to have a nasty hatred for those who believe in Christ. Hell, even ABF is a Godless heathen and he doesn't hate Christians any more than he hates Jews and Muslims. Darunia just has it in for us and I don't know why.

I mean, he cannot explain anything, but he seems determined that the correct answer is the polar opposite of what we believe, no matter what. My way of thinking is that nothing in human history has endured the way that faith in the true God has, and God's three religions still dominate the world. Even in a time where mankind is more arrogant and self-absorbed than ever before, faith in God persists. There has to be a reason that is, when empires rise and fall, and other beliefs decline and die out, that God lives and is strong.

It's okay, Darunia. Jesus loves us all and He can forgive even you.

:D

Darunia
I applause DJ's movements towards peace. He's opened my eyes to the fact that I was indeed being hostile in an unprovoke (albeit ignorant) Christian gathering, and such being the case, I shall abdicate from this thread.

Best wishes,

~~Emperor Darunius VII of the Goron Peoples

A Black Falcon
Religion doesn't make logical sense in the modern world. Science does not have all the answers but it has many and we know that given enough time science will explain much more. Saying 'we do not know so God did it' is utter idiocy, like the Big Bang.

So why belief? Tradition and human psyche, probably... over thousands of years it got burned in and while it's not quite like our base instincts (not just sex but basic social things like 'killing people in your group is wrong'...), it's clearly got a lot of momentum and that has a power all its own... belief leads to belief and people believe. Retreating in scope (God didn't create the world in 7 days or put the Earth in the center of the universe), but believed in in some amount anyway... at this point I don't think there is much of any true logical backing for God (unlike primitive man saying 'i do not have any way of understanding how this all came to be'), but we have believed in deities forever and it's far too late to turn back now.

Just like this...

A) You're on a trolley, at the controls at a split in the tracks. If it goes straight it'll hit and kill 5 people. If you hit the switch and turn it'll hit and kill one person. What do you do?

B) You're on a bridge over a straight track. A trolley is approaching. It will hit and kill 5 people. There is a fat man in front of you. If you sneak up behind him and push him off it'll be enough to slow down the train so the 5 will live. What do you do?

Our basic instincts say scenario B is wrong because it is murder but not so for A because there is a machine in between, something primitive man did not conceive... that one you can think of much more rationally.

Religion is a bit different but I can see some similarities between these...

Oh, and it's not ALL bad. Religion helps calm people from anxiety, make people happy or give them will to fight disease (and belief you will get better in many cases helps for some reason), and other things...

Darunia
I feel for you, brother, but don't bother. Vous avez beau. They won't listen.

Ryan
We don't need a missionary to tell us we're believing the 'wrong' thing. It reinforces my opinion that atheism is a religion all to itself.

Though, the difference between you and ABF is that ABF states why he doesn't believe, but you seem to hold a nasty grudge against anyone who does.

Dark Jaguar
ABF, that's certainly not the way I view that situation. Why would it matter if there is a machine involved? The body isn't actually a part of one's soul, but a tool, albeit a squishy one. I certainly would view using a gun to kill someone with the same evil as using one's own fists to do the job.

In your examples, they appear exactly the same and produce a different conflict, the one you should have went with. The "lesser of two evils" paradox. Now then, I don't believe such a situation will ever occur. No one who is so evil as to engineer such a conundrum will ever be capable of actually putting it all together and doing it. Your examples are also solvable without killing anyone. First off, a fat man wouldn't be enough to slow down that trolley. Assuming it would, why do that? There's always another way. I have taken a very Vash attitude towards things like that. There's always a way to save everybody if you just think hard enough. For example, why not YELL at the 5 people to MOVE THEIR ARSES. Easy solution there.

In the first example, throw the switch midway but not all the way. This will jam the tracks and cause the trolley to derail, but everyone will survive.

Darunia
Humanity is far from a perfect evolution. We are just a continuation of the primate family, and the most developed life form yet known. We are the masters of the planet by our own assertion. Having said that, and as far advanced and developed as our minds are, humanity as a whole is still naďve and ignorant. As a whole, humanity is still imprisoned in the mental confines of religion. The extent to which humanity can evolve is still shackled; still held down. Until we can let go of our tiresome beliefs in eternal salvation and omnipotent deities, we will forever be less than what we could be.
The main arguments for and against religion are, ironically the same; neither side can be proven. For millennia, religious people have prayed to their God(s), and the atheists of the world have yearned for reason. This continues today.
Thousands of years have passed of human history, and countless forgotten religions and beliefs have come and gone; risen and faded, and been worshipped by millions with as much candor as today’s religions. Today, we discredit all of these ancient religions; yet somehow, humanity is arrogant and ignorant enough to believe that our contemporary religions are somehow different from those of the past. Somehow, contemporary theologians can say that the theologians of yesterday were all wrong and didn’t know any better, yet they themselves are in the same position. How can anyone be so ignorant? How are Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and all the rest any different from the religions of the Greek gods, or the Egyptians? Well, what are the similarities between them…today, as back on those days, people blindly devoted their lives to religion. Half the fun and mystery was that it was a blind faith; a good person would blindly follow their faith, without ever questioning it. This must require a certain amount of, blatantly put, stupidity. Does no one think for them selves anymore? We simply believe that which we are told growing up, and our logic never evolves any further? A Christian knows that his religion is true; let so does a Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Buddhist, a Zoroastrian or any other theologian. These religions agree on some things to an extent, but on the whole, are different. They’re similar in as much as that they all demand blind loyalty, and only taking the word of previous generations that it’s true. Without ever seeing their deities, or anything particularly supernatural, people live all of their lives—give everything they have—to worshipping figments of their imaginations.
Religious people scoff at agnostics, free-thinkers and atheists as being afraid of believing, or afraid to open their eyes and make a leap of blind faith. The same can be turned around, though—why do they not think straight and ponder with reason instead of desire whether or not god exists. Whence there is next to no tangible evidence that he has ever existed, (no, the fact that the Earth exists doesn’t count), one would think it wouldn’t even be much of a debate.
Napoleon Bonaparte put it succinctly with “religion is very good stuff for keeping the masses happy.” Religion is, as I put it, a sedative for the curious mind. Governor Jesse Ventura called it a crutch for the weak-minded. It and keeps us content in our otherwise unbearably pointless and brief lives. It also helps explain…well, everything. Any mystery in nature? God did it. Why is the sky blue, why do we feel pain? God did it. Doesn’t it strike anyone else as a little suspicious that a being whom none of us have ever see or heard (in fact, we’ve only read about it in a 2,000 year old tome,) is somehow all around us, and controls our destinies, yet never reveals itself? He loves us all, and created us in his image (yet who created his image,) and wants us to believe in him, yet will furnish no evidence to the skeptical. Does he want us to be intelligent and evolve; naturally, the superior mind questions everything around it. Unless we’re but sheep to be herded, Isn’t it natural that people question religion? That being so, why doesn’t God reveal himself to the masses, or in some other way prove his existence? Why does he play these games of blind faith versus eternal hellfire? Wouldn’t it just be the slightest bother to perhaps appear in the sky and reveal himself to the masses, and forever prove himself and save all of humanity from disbelief? Would that be too easy? Otherwise, why would the Christian god create a race of flawed beings, and then blame them for the way they are? No one chooses to be atheist; no one chooses to be raised as a Christian. We have no power over who our parents are, and we cannot choose to believe anything, anymore than we can choose who we love. Belief, like love, is spontaneous; we can only go along for the ride. One doesn’t choose to believe anything—belief and faith are, like all emotions, based upon our minds. So, since we cannot ever CHOOSE to believe in something we don’t already believe in, thusly, it is definitely beyond our power to save ourselves (assuming that it is by blind belief in God that we are saved.)
I understand that there are many cliques of Christianity, and no two believe in the exact same thing. Some don’t believe in hell, some don’t respect the organized religion of the Vatican, some believe different theories about the Holy Trinity, etc. Doesn’t this also discredit them---that there are so many different takes on Christianity, they can’t all be right. Using common sense, if there are so many varying degrees and classes of Christianity, only one can be truly right, or none can be right at all. Or perhaps God is a laid-back individual, who doesn’t really care what you believe in, as long as he gets his prayers—in which case, our only purpose is to worship him. Doesn’t this make him vain—creating all of existence simply to worship him—and since vanity is a sin, isn’t God also a hypocrite?



Some of the stronger anti-religion statements are as follows:

1.) If God is real, and wants all of us to believe in him and thusly earn passage to Heaven, why doesn’t he reveal himself to the masses, and thusly prove beyond any doubt to all humanity that he does exist, and thusly save us all forever?
2.) Why does he allow so much suffering, doubt and ignorance to exist in the world he created?
3.) The Bible decidedly ignores the existence of the other solar planets, and the very existence of space. We now know that there are very many numerous other planets in the infinite universe. What purpose do they serve? They play no role in the Bible at all.
4.) The human body is definitely flawed; and yet if Man is created in God’s image, does this not also mean that the perfect God is also flawed?
5.) God condemned snakes to slither on the ground in return for having tempted Eve (Genesis.) If such a means of living is so terrible and degrading, what did worms do?
6.) Talking snakes roamed the Earth 5,000 years ago? Really…
7.) The Bible tells in detail how God created the Earth and man, and how the world is only approximately 6,006 years old (as told in my 1870 King James’ Bible). Science has time and time again disavowed and proven this timeline false.
8.) The Bible tells how all animals were made to serve and be subordinate to man (Genesis 1:26) If this is true, why do animals even today continue to injure and kill humans…? Shouldn’t they all be docile in best serving God?
9.) A prominent, recurring theme of Christianity is forgiveness. If that is true, why does God not forgive Adam and Eve for Eve’s having eaten the forbidden fruit of the Garden of Eden? Furthermore, why does he make all of humanity suffer eternally for it…? Furthermore still, if the fruit was forbidden and never to be touched, what purpose did it serve, and why did he put it there, within reach and sight of the humans who, imperfect as we are could be easily tempted? Wasn’t this a trap waiting to happen?
10.) In Genesis, God created man first, and later woman. Whereas Man was created instantaneously by God, Woman had to be taken from one of Adam’s ribs…this is simply ridiculous; wouldn’t it have been easier to have just spontaneously created a Woman too? Furthermore, why a rib?
11.) God made man in all his form. Surely, this including reproductive genitalia. Then, as an afterthought, God later created woman from one of Adam’s ribs…why didn’t he create man and woman together? If not to reproduce with a woman, what were the penis and testicles for originally…? Using logic, if not to reproduce with, they could only realistically be used for masturbating to obtain self-sexual gratification. Does this then not mean that masturbation is acceptable, despite the Catholic Church being against it?
12.) If God made man in his image, and Eve could not resist temptation, doesn’t this also mean that God himself is susceptible to similar things?
13.) Why did God create humanity with only a minority believing in him from the start? If we believe the Bible, at the time of Jesus, Christians were only deciphals of Jesus, and other non-Christian believers comprised the other 99.99% of humanity. Why did he leave it up to those few who believed in him to go out and convert “all other heathen?” Why didn’t he just snap his fingers and have all of humanity believe in him? Furthermore, since the world was evenly populated, why did Jesus only appear in the Middle East—isn’t it unfair to the other people all around the world? Did they all go to hell for lack of Jesus ever getting to them?
14.) Since it is a sin to have any other god(s) before “the one, true god”, does that mean that 5 out of ever 6 people alive today await eternal damnation?
15.) If God can indeed do anything, can he make a rock so large than even he can’t move it? (A childish riddle, but very true. The logic is impeccable.)
16.) God is eternal; he has always been, and always will be. Yet, if God created the world and all life at a set point in time, what did he do in the perpetual void that existed before he did this?
17.) Satan, allegedly, was a corrupt angel, outcast from Heaven. He betrayed God. But if God is omnipotent, couldn’t he have foreseen the deceit beforehand…?
18.) Angels are helpers of God. If God is all-powerful and indeed everywhere at all times, why does he need any help at all?
19.) Returning to the man-in-God’s image theme, if we are indeed replicas of God, why do we need to eat/sleep? If God as well requires these, he is not self-sufficient. If he does not require these, then we’re not in his complete image. Either way discredits the Creationist theory of Christianity.
20.) Throughout history, there have been countless hundreds of religions. Each one for a time was believed by a number of people no less devout than Christians today. If Christians easily disavow the beliefs of other religions, why should others not disavow Christianity? In other words, isn’t it incredibly naďf and narrow-minded of them to believe in a religion and not at least doubt it?
21.) If God exists, why does he allow his Church to be so corrupt, knowing that in so doing, it is hurting belief in him and his teachings?
22.) If Christianity is the one, true, absolute religion, why do only one in every six people believe in it? In China alone there are more Daoists than there are Christians throughout all the world. Approximately 810 million Indians profess Hindu.
23.) God sent a flood to kill all but one pair of each of every species, Noah and his immediate family. Since God is all-knowing, this means that God willingly and premeditatedly meant to kill nearly all humanity from the very beginning. Isn’t killing all by 10 people out of humanity genocide, and far worse than on the scale of Stalin or Hitler? Murder is a sin; thus God sins, thus God is a hypocrite.
24.) In the Old Testament, God kept in touch with humanity for some time; to guide and council us. This is chronicled in the first few books of the Bible. There could be no doubt he existed when he blatantly showed himself and indeed walked alongside us. Why did this God-Man contact stop eventually?
25.) Genesis 2:2 claims that God created the world in seven days, and that on the seventh day, God, exhausted, had to rest…thus we have Sunday; the Lord’s day of rest. If God is all-powerful, why would he need to rest at all, ever…?
26.) Atheists say “Where did God come from?” Christians will counter with “He’s always been and always will be.” That logic being valid, cannot one just as easily claim that matter (and the universe) always have been and always will be…? Isn’t it easier to believe that atoms have always existed, than an all-powerful yet conveniently reclusive deity?
27.) Christian try to prove heaven exists that heaven exist because “when you die, where else does your soul go?” To counter this, it goes exactly back from whence it came. What is death, they ask? I can easily answer this. Do you remember what was happening five thousands years before your were born? Obviously not…because you were not yet born. You did not exist. The very exact same state of non-existence awaits us all, just as much as we have all come from it. Our mind disintegrates, as it is inextricably incorporated with the flesh.
28.) The Bible was written by prophets of Jesus and God. Why wouldn’t he just write it himself, knowing that men are easily confused and distorted, and thusly that what they say could easily be mistranslated and laughed at?
29.) If God created man, then he surely also intended for us to act and behave as we do… he knows our minds, after all. That being said, did he not intend for us to be skeptical of him, granted our gifted ability to advance and learn over time? Moreover, if he didn’t intend for man to act violent and kill his fellow man, why did he form our minds with such flawed instincts and violent intentions? We are as he created us—filled with emotion, hate, fear and the inevitable fate of eternal oblivion that awaits us in death.


The discrepancies in the Bible alone are countless. To name them all would be a monumental task; but suffice to say that not much of it is credible. The Bible talks of talking animals, and great disasters…a vengeful god who loves us all yet murders whole cities who do not believe in him. Seems more petty and jealous than loving. Furthermore, if such a deity did exist, why doesn’t he do any of this anymore; why would he reign destruction of the disobedient peoples of the past, but not today? Why didn’t God stop Hitler, or Stalin? Why do people suffer? The countless questions against God may forever go unanswered. Christians and theologians scramble to make up excuses on behalf of their absent role model, yet they are at best imaginative solutions. More often than not, theologians can sum up the absence and discrepancies of their god by simply saying: “He works in mysterious ways. We are too simple and insignificant to understand him.”


---Darunia

A Black Falcon
We don't need a missionary to tell us we're believing the 'wrong' thing. It reinforces my opinion that atheism is a religion all to itself.

Though, the difference between you and ABF is that ABF states why he doesn't believe, but you seem to hold a nasty grudge against anyone who does.


That was actually the third time I wrote that post... it got deleted twice and the result was much shorter than I had planned, obviously. :)

And I also don't hate you for believing, as I said. You can't really help it, and I outlined why I think that is (psychologically)... not believing is a more daring step, one most people wouldn't and don't want to take. Losing that comfort blanket can be rough... that's not the whole of it of course, but it's certainly a big part.

ABF, that's certainly not the way I view that situation. Why would it matter if there is a machine involved? The body isn't actually a part of one's soul, but a tool, albeit a squishy one. I certainly would view using a gun to kill someone with the same evil as using one's own fists to do the job.

In your examples, they appear exactly the same and produce a different conflict, the one you should have went with. The "lesser of two evils" paradox. Now then, I don't believe such a situation will ever occur. No one who is so evil as to engineer such a conundrum will ever be capable of actually putting it all together and doing it. Your examples are also solvable without killing anyone. First off, a fat man wouldn't be enough to slow down that trolley. Assuming it would, why do that? There's always another way. I have taken a very Vash attitude towards things like that. There's always a way to save everybody if you just think hard enough. For example, why not YELL at the 5 people to MOVE THEIR ARSES. Easy solution there.

In the first example, throw the switch midway but not all the way. This will jam the tracks and cause the trolley to derail, but everyone will survive.


That was copied straight from an article I read in a magazine that day... it was a research test. The subjects were in a machine that scanned their brains while they asked them questions... the result (the article said) showed that with the 'push' one people didn't think as logically about it as the instinctual response came up but with the switch they were able to do that more so. I can understand that...

As for questioning the question, well, it's not designed that way. Just assume that that's the only way out. :D

Oh, here's something that got lost in the third rewrite... another thing.

The peer pressure one. This is a classic question outlining this.

A B C D
| | | |
| | |
| | |
| |
| |
| |

Okay, which two lines are the most similar?

So, there is a group of people and the question is asked to them one at a time. Each of the first five people says "C and D". You are last. What do you say?

A LOT of the time people say "C and D", despite their better judgement. It's been proven. They either think that the others know something they don't or that they should go along to not look different...

Now, religion isn't quite like this. It's hardly that obvious. And for primitive man it wasn't obvious at all. But now? We know better! We can see that those lines aren't quite the same and the old things (physical representations of the power of various deities) is wrong. Science has explained many "religious" things and continues to add more and will have more in the future. As I (think I) said, in the future we will answer more. It might take a long time but eventually we should answer most of the big questions, like ASM's "how did the universe form/how did the big bang work/since we didn't know didn't god do it"... and prove that third part wrong. But as I also said religion will take it hard and argue very hard against it but in the long run they'll have to admit the obvious. Over time belief builds up and after so long people don't want to believe that those lines aren't the way they thought they were... so as I said that won't destroy religion, it'll just retreat it to some nebulous position that God created the universe and guided it or something... something that science can't disprove because there would be no hard-science things left for "god" to have done. THAT aspect of God can't be proven nonexistent ever.

However, from my view it's not a sane position. It to me sounds exactly like this question you might have heard...

Okay, why wasn't the universe created one minuite ago? I KNOW it was! Faith says that it was created one minuite ago exactly as it is.

Now, that cannot be disproven, just like that final form of God can't be. But does that make it LOGICAL? No! But as I said I don't think God will go anywhere because somehow it's been burned into us, over the millenia, and it'd take something like killing anyone who's ever heard of God and completely starting over and only teaching people science to get people to stop such beliefs...


As for Darunia... you did mention a few good points. Previous religions. From my perspective, I see absolutely no reason that "God" is true and "Zeus" or "Odin" aren't... and objectively, I'd say, there is none... just blind religious faith. And blind faith is NOT a good thing. Ever. Your point about Christian sects (and other modern religions) is the same. How can two Christian sects which disagree both be right? It's all in the eye of the beholder. I see no logical reason why any one religion is more right than any other... well unless said religion involves human sacrifice, or something. :)

Though, Darunia, I wouldn't call that blind faith stupidity... it's might seem objectively stupid but to them it is not. So it might be stupid in a way but they don't know it, and will never accept it, which makes the point kind of moot... and anyway it's taught and learned from everyone around you and people are social creatures, as I showed above, so I can hardly blame people for believing what they are told. It's not stupid to do that. It's a survival trait actually... so no it isn't really stupid. It's just not really thinking it all the way through and refusing to let yourself do that.


10.) In Genesis, God created man first, and later woman. Whereas Man was created instantaneously by God, Woman had to be taken from one of Adam’s ribs…this is simply ridiculous; wouldn’t it have been easier to have just spontaneously created a Woman too? Furthermore, why a rib?
11.) God made man in all his form. Surely, this including reproductive genitalia. Then, as an afterthought, God later created woman from one of Adam’s ribs…why didn’t he create man and woman together? If not to reproduce with a woman, what were the penis and testicles for originally…? Using logic, if not to reproduce with, they could only realistically be used for masturbating to obtain self-sexual gratification. Does this then not mean that masturbation is acceptable, despite the Catholic Church being against it?
12.) If God made man in his image, and Eve could not resist temptation, doesn’t this

The second creation story in Genesis has man and woman created at the same time, you know, not Eve from Adam's rib... of course having two creation stories is one of those numerous problems with the Bible, but it's a point that should be said. :)

9.) A prominent, recurring theme of Christianity is forgiveness. If that is true, why does God not forgive Adam and Eve for Eve’s having eaten the forbidden fruit of the Garden of Eden? Furthermore, why does he make all of humanity suffer eternally for it…? Furthermore still, if the fruit was forbidden and never to be touched, what purpose did it serve, and why did he put it there, within reach and sight of the humans who, imperfect as we are could be easily tempted? Wasn’t this a trap waiting to happen?

The Old Testament god isn't especially forgiving... How about Sodom and Gomorrah? The Great Flood? Moses killing the idol-worshippers? Etc etc etc...

28.) The Bible was written by prophets of Jesus and God. Why wouldn’t he just write it himself, knowing that men are easily confused and distorted, and thusly that what they say could easily be mistranslated and laughed at?

God guided the prophets' hands and wrote it by proxy, many believe... that means that it's infallible of course and that isn't true because even within the bible there are contradictions and as you say we've proven parts wrong and our morals are quite different now, but they say it anyway.

21.) If God exists, why does he allow his Church to be so corrupt, knowing that in so doing, it is hurting belief in him and his teachings?

God is too busy to deal with the affairs of men... he did early in the Old Testament but I guess he got tired of us or something... :D

4.) The human body is definitely flawed; and yet if Man is created in God’s image, does this not also mean that the perfect God is also flawed?

'In his image' doesn't mean that we are in every way like God.

Ryan
And I also don't hate you for believing, as I said. You can't really help it, and I outlined why I think that is (psychologically)... not believing is a more daring step, one most people wouldn't and don't want to take. Losing that comfort blanket can be rough... that's not the whole of it of course, but it's certainly a big part.
But that's not necessarily true, about not being able to help it. I'm sure I've said on several occasions that I was very much an athiest, or at the very least agnostic for most of my life. Really, all of it except the last three years or so. It was then that I went through what was probably the roughest period of my life, and it was then that I realized that atheism did nothing for me. I believe that God got me through that period of rotten times and my life's been pretty damned good ever since. Did God, the great invisible deity, really have anything to do with little old me? I believe so, because when I denied God, my life was at best, without meaning. I won't say God is the only reason I live, but I think He has helped me find my meaning in life and to improve myself. I am a much better human being than I was three years ago. You will disagree, you might even say it was my own determination to improve myself that is responsible. I don't think I could have done it alone, because I never was able to. :)

Anyway, that's why I respect your non-belief, because you're like me: I don't care if everyone else believes (or doesn't). Believers who act like Darunia, on the other hand, were the missionaries, crusaders and inquisitors. And with the exception of the passive missionaries, no one has much good to say about those kinds of people.

I say, let me believe what I want and I'll extend you the same courtesy. When you write long posts about why my belief is bullshit, you're not convincing me at all, you are simply trying to affirm your own disbelief, and you can do that in private. :)

A Black Falcon
I never denied that there is some power in belief. Like as I said, disease... oh often it doesn't help but it can make a difference. Now that isn't necessarially religious belief, but it most often is... or (as your example shows) it helps with guidance... now I'd argue that often that isn't good guidance, but much of that is opinion (however much I disagree with said opinions). I'm no psychologist or anything but you say that you came back to god or something and your life improved... i don't know, mental state? Certainly sounds reasonable to me based on that...

Anyway, that's why I respect your non-belief, because you're like me: I don't care if everyone else believes (or doesn't). Believers who act like Darunia, on the other hand, were the missionaries, crusaders and inquisitors. And with the exception of the passive missionaries, no one has much good to say about those kinds of people.

I say, let me believe what I want and I'll extend you the same courtesy. When you write long posts about why my belief is bullshit, you're not convincing me at all, you are simply trying to affirm your own disbelief, and you can do that in private.

I'm not trying to convert you, because I know you'd never listen... just trying to say what I see as why belief in deities is a major factor in human existance... and that is obviously a major historical and psychological question that I'd say is interesting, which is why I wrote some long posts on it. It wasn't just for you or anything. :)

Oh, and I don't like it when people try to push their religion onto others, as I have said before. Feel free to believe what you want but I don't want it pushed on to me... but we've been over that one several times before. What is funny is how when I say it about Bush talking about God you act offended but when you say it about me talking about how to explain away religion, you take it as sensible... :)

Darunia
First off, I also believe in freedom of speech and religion----and in as much, I'll respect Weltall for not reading after this paragraph and letting this conversation die as is. I won't think anything of it.

On another note, I believe that atheism should be pressed onto people because it's like seeing a child trying to do a math problem. He has the wrong answer. Do you correct it for him, or just walk by, and let him get it wrong? Furthermore, I believe that if all of humanity got rid of wasteful spending and time on religious pursuits, humanity could evolve at a lightning pace--and that perhaps in just a few generations, with all of humanity and our resources properly utilized, we could be journeying to the stars, or living to be 200, and seeing out gr-gr-gr-gr-great grandchilden before our own life spans end. To me---who has no hope of life beyond death or salvation, prolonging life is the ultimate goal of humanity.

It was then that I went through what was probably the roughest period of my life, and it was then that I realized that atheism did nothing for me. I believe that God got me through that period of rotten times and my life's been pretty damned good ever since.

Seems like the boogey man under the bed or in the closet---he's only there for you if you believe in him.

[/b]Did God, the great invisible deity, really have anything to do with little old me? I believe so, because when I denied God, my life was at best, without meaning.[/b]

To the extent of my beliefs, life IF without meaning---we're only here to reproduce and die. Just really advance microbes. We have no divine mission or anything of that sort. It's really depressing and sad--which is why atheism isn't so popular. People believe what they want to believe.

Great Rumbler
On another note, I believe that atheism should be pressed onto people because it's like seeing a child trying to do a math problem. He has the wrong answer. Do you correct it for him, or just walk by, and let him get it wrong? Furthermore, I believe that if all of humanity got rid of wasteful spending and time on religious pursuits, humanity could evolve at a lightning pace--and that perhaps in just a few generations, with all of humanity and our resources properly utilized, we could be journeying to the stars, or living to be 200, and seeing out gr-gr-gr-gr-great grandchilden before our own life spans end. To me---who has no hope of life beyond death or salvation, prolonging life is the ultimate goal of humanity.

You certaintly aren't asking for very much.

Ryan
On another note, I believe that atheism should be pressed onto people because it's like seeing a child trying to do a math problem. He has the wrong answer. Do you correct it for him, or just walk by, and let him get it wrong? Furthermore, I believe that if all of humanity got rid of wasteful spending and time on religious pursuits, humanity could evolve at a lightning pace--and that perhaps in just a few generations, with all of humanity and our resources properly utilized, we could be journeying to the stars, or living to be 200, and seeing out gr-gr-gr-gr-great grandchilden before our own life spans end. To me---who has no hope of life beyond death or salvation, prolonging life is the ultimate goal of humanity.

Wow.

Well, for one thing, you're not 'correcting someone who is wrong'. You're forcing your opinion on people who don't share it. You are forcing your belief on people who believe otherwise. That isn't correcting anything, when, to me, you're as wrong as you claim me to be.

Furthermore, humanity HAS evolved at a lightning pace over the last hundred years. Religion has had very little to do with it, bad or good. Technology has reached the point where such rapid advancement is possible.

Darunia
This is what I mean by that, Weltall & GR:

http://www.aleph.se/Trans/

Great Rumbler
Upon reading that website I'm suddenly reminded of episode #23 of Cowboy Bebop.

Ryan
The one with Brain Scratch? Didn't work out too well, if I remember. And it was controlled by a comatose teenager. :D

Anyway, I think a lot of what I read about the Transhumanists seem like they want to live in a Star Trek novel. They are way too idealist. They believe, to some form, that they can branch out entirely seperate and become a race of supermen, essentially. One referred to them becoming as "the Greek Gods".

It all sounds very lovely, but I think it's going to stay on the pages of sci-fi novels. I believe their goals of bettering people through technology is wonderful, however, that is inevitable. One needs only to compare us in 2004 to people of 1904. Lifespans have nearly doubled. We've been to the moon and touched the stars. We can do things that people a hundred years ago could never begin to imagine. And yet, we did it all without a profound cultural change. The real future will likely differ a bit from their vision of a utopia, but at least from the technological side of things, we're on our way there. It may not happen as fast as they'd like, but it's inevitable that we will get there, and it probably won't take very long.

Darunia
Yes, some of that stuff is pretty whack---but I myself am all for the branches off extending longevity, and reaching for the stars. I wouldn't be opposed to many things in there, actually.

Lifespans have nearly doubled.

I know that's popular legend, but from the best of my knowledge, that's greatly exaggerated. I've compiled a magnificent genealogical database, and at least MY ancestors' lifespans weren't half what they are today. I see my gr-gr-gr-great grandparents, excluding mishaps, living to seventies, eighties and nineties on average. While we do live longer today, I'd attribute that average to more about a decade or two better than 1904. Most of the lower life expectancies back then were owing to accidents, just like the rampid AIDs in Ethiopia brings their life expectancy down to, what, 38 is it now?

Ryan
http://www.efmoody.com/images/12lifeexpectancy.gifhttp://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html (http://www.efmoody.com/estate/lifeexpectancy.html)

An increase from under 50 to almost 80. Not quite a real doubler, but still, it's incredibly dramatic given the time frame.

Great Rumbler
The one with Brain Scratch?

That's the one.

A Black Falcon
Weltall, when you consider life expectancy there is one key thing: infant mortality rate. Now, it is absolutely true that more people live longer than ever before now. But the numbers are skewed even higher because most infants live. In the past life expectancy was cut a lot by how so many infants died young...

Still, you're right that we've advanced a lot in the last century. And that Darunia's idea there is idealistic and not especially realistic... I don't see how getting rid of religion would cause some great improvement in human thought and condition. Maybe it's because I'm cynical but I don't have much respect for the greatness of human nature... people are stupid and will do dumb things. They'd just replace it with something else stupid. :)

Darunia
If people stopped living in fantasy worlds wherein they didn't fear death as well they should, they'd probably world more fervently towards prolonging their lives, and improving our temporary existence. I fervently believe that...many people don't feel the need (as in many religious people don't think we should go into space), because their religion and it's teachings conflict with it. Remove the religion, and your remove the conflict. This leaves only room to grow.

Obviously it's a generalization, and with most people it wouldn't make a difference, but I believe that in many cases, technology would advance faster if people were more motivated.

Ryan
Religion is hardly restricting human development. It has sparked some of humanity's greatest achievements. One needs only to remember how much of the art of the Renaissance was influenced by religion, or to view the beautiful cathedrals, mosques, and some of the giant Buddha statues to know.

Religion is like almost everything else man practices: It has good and bad traits. It has been used for great evil and for great good. It can just as easily inspire creativity, reason, and morality in a person as it can hatred and intolerance. Just because it doesn't go right every time is no reason to get rid of it.

Darunia
Religion is hardly restricting human development. It has sparked some of humanity's greatest achievements. One needs only to remember how much of the art of the Renaissance was influenced by religion, or to view the beautiful cathedrals, mosques, and some of the giant Buddha statues to know.

Art, not technology. The Renaissance wasn't the direct result of religious influences. Statues and paintings aren't going to get us to the moon. How can you say that religion doesn't restrict progress! What about Evolution; half the country even today doesn't want Evolution being taught in schools! Wasn't it just sixty years ago that ignorant Creationists OUTLAWED evolution in Tennessee?

Religion is like almost everything else man practices: It has good and bad traits. It has been used for great evil and for great good. It can just as easily inspire creativity, reason, and morality in a person as it can hatred and intolerance. Just because it doesn't go right every time is no reason to get rid of it.

I believe that it was useful once, but no longer. The bad that it has made continues to do outweigh the trivial soundeness of mind it brings. Millions have died for religion. What has been gained...?

---Millions died in forced conversions, crusades, witch hunts, inquistions
---Millions were tortured; i.e. when Columbus cut off the hands of Indians who would not convert in the Caribbean.
---It is a corrupt institution... (at least the Catholic part is.)
---It promotes ignorance.
---Religion promotes hatred: Catholics, many hardliner Christians don't like gays because its against their religion to be with the same sex. This even effects our closet-Christian government!
--Without religion, the Jews wouldn't have suffered because of their beliefs in the Holocaust.
---Today, religion drives the only serious threats to world peace: The Jews vs. the Arabs, and the Muslims vs. the Democracies, which are predominantly all Christian. If religion weren't so broad, there certainly wouldn't be anywhere near as much death and hatred in the world today. 9/11 almost certainly never would've happened.

on the other hand,

---Religion provides some morale standing.
---It makes people happy and comforts them.

Great Rumbler
One of the reasons that so many people came to colonize what would become the U.S. was because they wanted religious freedom.

--Without religion, the Jews wouldn't have suffered because of their beliefs in the Holocaust.

Oh please. Like Hitler wouldn't have found other groups to torture...oh wait! He did! Remeber the gays, gypsies, slavs, Russians, ect?

If religion weren't so broad, there certainly wouldn't be anywhere near as much death and hatred in the world today. 9/11 almost certainly never would've happened.


I doubt that as well. The terrorists simply use religion to try and justify their attacks. They want to kill us because we believe in freedom for everyone and they don't like that. There's other reasons too and religion is probably one of them though I doubt it's the main reason and it certaintly isn't the only.

Dark Jaguar
Darunia, a number of the so called flaws in the Bible are from your misunderstanding of it. First off, your main argument, why doesn't God simply proove himself once and for all? Honestly, if a giant being boomed from the heavens that He is the One, would you suddenly believe? Be honest. Would you believe, or would you rather assume that it was a hologram made by a cult. If you heard it in your mind, or were suddenly transported to Heaven to talk to God then sent back, would you believe? Maybe you would, but if you were intent on doubting, I have a feeling you would simply assume you were hallucinating or dreaming. Science itself states nothing can be proven 100%. In fact, the laws of physics prevent that. Things can be prooven 99%, which is what I think you want. However, the entire point of Chrstianity is that you are willing to have FAITH in God. Time and time again I've tried drumming this into your head. It's not faith if you know it already is proven.

Now then, your other points I must elaborate on. Concerning the imperfections of the human form, animals, and the universe itself, you need only remember "the curse". We WERE perfect life forms beforehand. Adam and Eve had bodies that were perfect, likely producing no waste. The very laws of the universe of course had to be different. A STATED example is that whereas before they had eternal life, after the first sin, they had mortal lifespans. Rather than our food all growing naturally with ease exactly when we needed it and never cluttering up things or rotting, we have to toil to get it to grow. Technology is basically an attempt to regain bit by bit everything God originally gave us, using what God let us keep.

You may wonder why God had to create Eve from a rib, or for example why it took an ENTIRE 6 days to make all that is. Well, He didn't HAVE to. He didn't HAVE to breathe life into man, as just before he merely created all the animals and such. He purposefully did things in a longer more complicated way for a reason. Likewise, God wasn't ACTUALLY exausted. The Bibles I've read merely say He rested, not that He needed to. This isn't some Greek god here. I rest a lot of the time even though I'm still pumped full of energy. Why? Relaxing JUST for the sake of relaxing is an enjoyable activity, and it would seem God is in favor of people having such a luxery as just being able to sit back. It's likely that human fatigue is merely His way of sorta putting a physical reminder to just sit back now and again.

Regarding how evil can possibly exist if God created all and God isn't evil, keep this in mind. Evil, defined by Christianity, only means "against God". Essentially, any choice that is against God's will is evil, and anything that is WITH God's will is good. If God's will was that someone destroy Mercury, and that person didn't do that, it would be evil. The only reason it's wrong to hurt people is because it's against God's will. It's against God's will because He, and only He, knows the way people should be. Now, here's an important thing. You may still be wondering "okay, but why do people choose to go against God?". There's the heart of the matter. God gave us free will. He gave us the ability to choose how we can live. If were were merely dolls, we wouldn't BE. There would be no point at all to our existing. God wants us to follow His will of our OWN choice, not because he turned us into robots. There is no point in us choosing to follow Him unless it is OUR choice to do so. That's exactly why things like the crusades were so evil. Again, it went against God's will both in the sense that, guess what, murder is WRONG, and it went against God's desire for us to follow Him of our own choice. It's what we THINK, not so much what we DO (what we do is merely the evidence that we truly think something).

Now then, you asked the childish riddle "If God can do anything, can He make a rock so big He can't lift it?". You say it's logically sound, but it's not. It's logically flawed and you know why. Grammer allows us to MAKE sentences like that, but that doesn't mean they make any sense at all. If God can do anything, no He CAN'T make a rock so large He can't lift it. You may say "then He can't do EVERYTHING can He?" but that's not an actual ability. It's a nonsense statement.

Here's another nonsense question. Is this statement true or false? "This statement is false." It's the same sort of logically flawed thing. That statement is null. It can't be considered either true OR false. If you tried programming it into a computer, for example, "if variable equals false, then variable equals true, if variable equals true, then variable equals false" it would result in an infinite loop, crashing the program (unless there's an error trap, but that's still an error). This is the same thing. Using administrator privilages, it would be like saying "admin always has priviliages to do EVERYTHING" followed by the admin disablling it's own privaliges to do... something, like I dunno access a printer. The program, if it made sure that admin ALWAYS has all privilages no matter what, would let the admin do that, but it wouldnt' have an affect, as it would immediatly be undone before the admin could even try to fail at accessing the printer. It's a fallacy in logic if it can't be programmed into a machine, even a theoretical machine from the future. I'm ignoring quantum mechanics here. However, assuming a quantum machine COULD allow such a ridiculous illogical thing to work, then I suppose God COULD do that couldn't He, via the very Quantum physics He created.

Other things are misunderstandings as well. Angels aren't needed at all really, but He created them anyway. Why? The Bible never really talks about it. I dunno... I'll find out one day I suppose. God not only COULD see Satan's betrayal, He DID. He did nothing to stop him because of the value God seems to have on free will. Again, I really don't know why God values our choice so much, but being created in His image, spiritually, we all likely have a good idea. It's no good if He just FORCED Satan to stop. God wanted, and likely still wants, to have Satan WILLINGLY change his mind. According to the Bible, God knows he never will, but God is still giving him the chance. After all, quantem physics DEMAND that free will is possible.

You state that humans don't have free will as well, or as much as that anyway. You say we are all predestined to think what we think, and thus salvation is out of our reach because we can't choose anything. If that's so, no one can be considered responsible for anything. However, it's not true. Quantum physics proove absolutely that our universe is unpredictable, and that it's impossible to know what will happen in the next moment EXACTLY, because there is a random element. At the simplest level, the universe is throwing dice to determine things. This isn't just something along the lines of how the beating of a butterfly's wings can have huge reprecussions centuries later. It's that if you REWOUND time back to that moment again, didn't change a SINGLE thing, and then ran it forward, things would progress DIFFERENTLY. That's right, if you rewound time, and played it agian, it would NOT happen the same way. The universe is not like a video tape. It's like a video game. Taken in a religious context, we ARE able to choose the life we want to live. We can't choose the DNA we get, and a lot of our environment is beyond our control, but we CAN choose an infinite number of things within these boundries. You may say that if there are boundries, it can't be infinite, but the fact is the universe itself has two boundries, the infinite density infinite heat state, and the 0 density 0 heat state, yet there are inifinite possilibities therein, and any percentage defined by more variables is a "lesser infinity", though infinite is infinite no matter how you cut it. You can take infinite away from infinite and there's still infinite left. Makes for a very long game of bottles on the wall countin'....

One other thing, you make a point about the perpetual void before creation. Here's the thing, the universe's starting point, the Big Bang, and God, work the same way in this sense. Scientists, physicists, have asked for some time, because they ARE scientists, why did the universe start at THAT moment and not any point infinitly before that? Simple, time doesn't exist until something CHANGES. The first change is the first instance of time. Steven Hawking put it in the sense that time is more of a sphere, with an imaginary time direction perpendicular to the normal time direction. Essentially, the Big Bang, or God, isn't the start of time, it's a pole, like the north pole or south pole. They are boundries outside which there is nothing. There was no time before God started creating. So, there was no before. Big Bang, God, same thing in THIS sense. The difference is in the feasibility. God requires the leap of faith in something with no evidence, none that can't be attributed to something else anyway, whereas the Big Bang is proven every time we hit a static station on the dial.

Here's another thing I've decided for myself lately. I believe that evolution CAN occur at this point, not really that it's how we got HERE, but that after we got here it can happen. For that matter, the universe could easily have been created long before God actually got around to making us during the 6 day period. It may seem I'm being backed into a corner by science and am being forced to give up things, but honeslty I haven't given up a single thing yet. For that matter, science and religion are NOT mutually exclusive. Many well renowned physicists are Christians themselves.

Anyway, a good number of things are from one other lack of understanding. You see, pre-Christ and post-Christ are two very different periods both in how humans were expected to behave and how God dealt with them. Confusing yes? Seems the eternally always right God is fickle suddenly doesn't it? Well, a little analyzing and you see God's point. You see, pre-Christ, human kind sinned. They were all eternally doomed. God was making a point before bringing in Christ that nothing mankind can do can save it. We do not have the ability to save ourselves. No good can wipe away the taint of evil. The good is still good on it's own merits, but it doesn't suddenly justify the evil that was done. For example, no matter how many lives a person may have saved, if they killed one person, they are still just as guilty as before. They can never gain back that life that was taken. It can never be undone. It can't be justified just because the same person is truly repentant and has done so much good since. All that can be done is this. Forgiveness. This is where Christ comes in. Before, God had a very complicated list of tasks to do. They didn't save the person, Christ did later, but God was trying to make a point. The slaying of animals with their blood was a representation of things, not the true salvation that was to come soon enough. It was a covenant with the people, evidence of their faith in the future salvation. Christ eventually came along and did His amazing thing, being both God and human at the same time, not a half breed, but a fusion. He died for all of us, so we no longer needed to use this "proof" of our faith, but rather just HAVE the faith because the deed is done. Really, the only reason all that pre-Christ salvation stuff was even done was because God really wanted to make a point, not because it was really needed, Christ the future salvation was the only part that was needed. So, God IS very forgiving, but pre-Christ He wanted to make a huge point of how guilty we truly are without forgiveness, yet with it we are truly saved. However, we must ACCEPT forgiveness. It's like a gift. We are given a final choice in the end. We can accept this gift, or, we are allowed to deny the gift. God COULD force us to accept the gift, to believe, but God values our free will, our willing choice.

And now, a final thought. You make it clear that you understand your own mortality, and you have accepted something that's logical considering the lack of proof otherwise, that you will simply cease to exist when you die. Your main objective then is to lengthen your life. Trust me, that desire is something we ALL want. Every single life form that has ever been succesful desires to life forever. Mating is merely a last ditch effort to make sure some bit survives, but all creatures want they themselves to live forever. This is deeply entrenched, the deep desires to eat and mate are merely representative of this deepest need way beyond these. You may well lengthen your life. However, realizing that won't be enough, you will want more. The thought that you will cease to exist, no one can simply settle for that. No one can sit by and accept it. You will want to lengthen and lengthen. You may even remove the aging process altogether. So long as you keep getting an outside energy source, it's perfectly physically possible to have eternal life. You will realize though that the Earth is doomed, that's why humans, deep down, want to leave. We know the sun won't last forever. Even those fine with things as they are will readily admit they want future generations to leave rather than all die in a horrible hell fire. However, that's not enough. Eventually we will need to leave our Milky Way galaxy (which will eventually be the Milky Andromeda galaxy, or maybe Andromeda Way sounds better...), as everything will be sucked into the depths of the super massive black hole at the center, which will only grow when Andromeda's black hole merges with it. Travelling in the vast void between galaxies, you'll know (and maybe me too, there's a lot I'd like to do in this physical reality before I go), that we can't have perfect efficiency, and some energy will inevitable seep out. We may find ways to get energy, likely loosing so little that the distant light of far off galaxies we will be drifting to will be enough to keep our super colony going. Maybe gravity waves will power incredibly efficient motors to give us back the energy we loose, maybe all of the above. At any rate, eventually we will notice something. That black hole that ate the fused galaxy seems to have exploded. Somehow, it gave off particles one at a time, via the strange quantum ability of the universe to randomly create particles from nothingness while at the same time subtracting an equal amount from some other area, and these appear in pairs, so that rather than the virtual particles that may appear just outside that black hole colliding like usual, the gravity of the hole will grab one particle and suck it beyond the reach of the other, thus half the mass that just got subtracted manages to STAY sent outside the black hole, and with the black hole surrounded by nothing new to absorb, over a google years, it will eventually evaporate away until it doesn't have the mass to hold itself together, and BOOM. This thing will be happening all over the universe. You will also notice stars all over slowly blipping out of sight. They aren't suddenly being sucked up, no, they are being shot so far away by the expansion that we will never see them again. For you see, the universe is not just expanding, it's ACCELERATING. One might expect gravity to slowly, VERY slowly, slow the universe down, or at least it would be so imperceptible that it would appear to be the same speed, but no, it's speeding up. The vaccuum has an energy of sorts that pushes out, shoving things out of itself. The more vaccuum you have, the more push you have. This "dark energy" will only push harder with more empty space between everything, and the gravity will weaken. You shall see this keep up all over the universe, with no way to stop it. Your own colony, maintained well enough by the little energy it can get from distant light and gravity waves, will soon run out. Both of us, standing there, looking into nothing, shall see that everything has been pushed so far from everything else, thinned out so much by dark energy, that in effect there is nothing. The void has won. Soon, the ship too will fall into disrepair, we eternal life forms will die due to the inability to have perfectly efficient machines (a physical impossibility). This desperate moment is the utter end of all things. The ship too shall suffer the same fate, as bit by bit, the energy is all send wayward, and the ship breaks apart, and soon all is seperated. This is how the universe ends. We are standing there, looking into this fate. We both by now have realized there is NO possible way to lengthen our lives any further, and no point. Nothing but nothing is ahead of us. I have the afterlife to look forward to. You however, I am afraid, are left with nothing at all. I don't mean to frighten you or anything. However, a life lived only to lengthen itself only has THIS bleak future. The universe has been doomed from the start. It will never collapse in on itself as some used to think, the Big Bang is doomed to end in the Silent Wimper.

alien space marine
I believe that it was useful once, but no longer. The bad that it has made continues to do outweigh the trivial soundeness of mind it brings. Millions have died for religion. What has been gained...?

---Millions died in forced conversions, crusades, witch hunts, inquistions

Shame on the catholic apostates .


---Millions were tortured; i.e. when Columbus cut off the hands of Indians who would not convert in the Caribbean.

I never heard of this before, But its really columbus who is at fault, That kind of savagery is condemned in the good book

---It is a corrupt institution... (at least the Catholic part is.)
Thats just one shitty religion

---It promotes ignorance.
Your pretty ignorant generalizing everyone who has a religion


---Religion promotes hatred: Catholics, many hardliner Christians don't like gays because its against their religion to be with the same sex. This even effects our closet-Christian government!

Its shame on the catholics babby! but there not telling people to go out and kill homosexuals.

--Without religion, the Jews wouldn't have suffered because of their beliefs in the Holocaust.

This part blows my mind , Hitler hated the jews the same way the whites hated the blacks , Jews are not just a religion their a ethnic group,He didnt hate them for their religion otherwise he would have persecuted the christians and all the other groups.

---Today, religion drives the only serious threats to world peace: The Jews vs. the Arabs, and the Muslims vs. the Democracies, which are predominantly all Christian. If religion weren't so broad, there certainly wouldn't be anywhere near as much death and hatred in the world today. 9/11 almost certainly never would've happened.

What about Stalin and Hitler both atheists , Who comited the most horrible crimes in history. Not all Muslims hate the U.S just a small extremist group who view the western culture has a evil.The Jews and palestinians isnt over religion its over land and terroritory, The didnt hate the jews before the creation of isreal,Isreal came in and stole a chunk of their country, Infact the Koran says for muslims too respect the jews and christians since they both follow in gods teachings


on the other hand,

---Religion provides some morale standing.
---It makes people happy and comforts them.

Great Rumbler
DJ, that was quite possibly the largest post I have ever seen!

Dark Jaguar
No it's not! I've posted posts about A JILLION times the size!

BLADES OF GRASS!

alien space marine
too big too read.

Great Rumbler
I read most of it.

A Black Falcon
I had written a long post but lost it. So just a few points.

Darunia: Again, you overestimate humanity... getting rid of humanity would not open it to some higher purpose... yes reducing its influence would do good things, but it wouldn't lead to fundamental change.

Weltall: Religion has done great, great evil. What I'd call its greatest one isn't atrocities, though... it's its hatred of new ideas and change. Religion is against progress. Progress is, on the whole, a good thing. That doesn't make religion evil but it makes it a huge force against understanding and knowledge... those are not by any stretch of the imaginiation good things. The Renaissance? Sure arts flowered but religion was still strict... greatly limiting artistic expression, and cutting growing science as much as possible...


DJ, you seem to be trying to cling to a direct interpretation of the Bible -- its word is the word of God and is all true. Your insistence in not ruling out the 'the world was literally created in 6 days' thing (something I'd call idiocy, believing something that obviously false) proves that. So, how do you explain the contradictions in the Bible? They are EVERYWHERE, starting from around page two or three! I mean, there are two creation stories... :)

It cannot all be right. Like how we've since decided that slavery is wrong, but it's all over the Bible and not just as an evil.

Or how about God himself? You talk about repentance, but the Old Testament God seems to have very little interest in that! And that's when he was manifest... the New Testiment is just through Jesus. In the Old Testament where he speaks (and acts) he does a lot of punishment and precious little forgiveness... Oh, and this goes against your statement that he loves free will too... unless somehow the nature of God changed when Jesus came into existence? But if he's all powerful then he should have known the best course from the beginning you know... :)

Just showing how this can go around in circles. I find so much of it so arbitrary but it's that very fact that it does set down these absolutes (something the things we know as facts cannot do) is what makes it so attractive...

Oh yeah on a similar theme, belief is all well and fine but belief agaisnt proof is obstinate and only brings about bad things. Like not admitting that the Big Bang definitely happened and the clear trail of events we are tracking is what occurred and that evolution is how our species evolved. And you call yourself a liker of science! Sure scientists are often religious but your ideas here are just absurd for one who claims to like this stuff...

I mean, if you don't believe that the record we see is what happened what's stopping me from saying "the world was created exactly as it is (to the atom, which would set your thoughts in your brain as they are) one second ago" and having you unable to argue against it because you think God could have created the world from wholecloth 6000 years ago or something and us from mud? Of course no one could prove that statement wrong, but neither can anyone disprove the idea that God created us from nothing with the entire earth as it is (remember, the dinosaur bones are a temptation from God trying to pull us off the path that says that the world was created ~6000 years ago!)...

Oh yeah, and Marx was wrong about a whole lot of stuff, but he is absolutely right that religion is an opiate for the masses. It's hardly the only one, but it's a big one and has been for just about forever. I mean, it's a key part of keeping the population down in any society with unfairness! When the peasants are told by their priest -- the local voice of God -- that they were born in the station they deserve to be in and the only way to go to Heaven is to work hard and follow orders and do as your lords command, well, they listen and stay oppressed despite hardships because they want to go to Heaven... Nationalism works too (see Nazi Germany or Militarist Japan up to the end of WWII), but Religion is one of the best tried and true methods for getting people to do what you want.

How does that connect to what you said? As you might guess, religion keeps people doing things that can quite quickly reduce their lifespan (Banzai charges, the Crusades...)... as those examples show, religion when mixed with some kind of group identity -- nationalism, defending the Western world, and some 'other'... the Enemy. Utter evil, generally -- introduce any humanity in your enemy and you have more trouble killing them. But he CERTAIN that they are heathens doomed to die and burn in the fires forever, and tortures and massacre comes easy!

alien space marine
I had written a long post but lost it. So just a few points.

Darunia: Again, you overestimate humanity... getting rid of humanity would not open it to some higher purpose... yes reducing its influence would do good things, but it wouldn't lead to fundamental change.

Weltall: Religion has done great, great evil. What I'd call its greatest one isn't atrocities, though... it's its hatred of new ideas and change. Religion is against progress. Progress is, on the whole, a good thing. That doesn't make religion evil but it makes it a huge force against understanding and knowledge... those are not by any stretch of the imaginiation good things. The Renaissance? Sure arts flowered but religion was still strict... greatly limiting artistic expression, and cutting growing science as much as possible...


The renaissance was a different time period were people didnt have the rights or freedoms we have today, The lands were not under democracies but harsh feudal kings.How did it limit artisitic expression? They had fiascos with naked bodies which are still controversial today.The great artist and scientist like Leonardo divinchi were all highly religous men and the churches hired them too do fiascos on the chapel ceilings.Religion had a major impact the growth of the art world in the renaisance.

The catholic church is a corrupt entity and its evil does not represent the hole christianity, The repression of scientist like Galileo were not bible based, They had come up with their own stupid doctrines that had nothing too do with the bible.

DJ, you seem to be trying to cling to a direct interpretation of the Bible -- its word is the word of God and is all true. Your insistence in not ruling out the 'the world was literally created in 6 days' thing (something I'd call idiocy, believing something that obviously false) proves that. So, how do you explain the contradictions in the Bible? They are EVERYWHERE, starting from around page two or three! I mean, there are two creation stories... :)

It cannot all be right. Like how we've since decided that slavery is wrong, but it's all over the Bible and not just as an evil.
1. Its not a contradiction ABF it is your lack of knowledge of the bible itself ,
The bible was original written in hebrew and its definition of the word "day" is much different then english, The hebrew definition of day is a passage of time not literal 24 hours.So those days could mean thousands or billions of years seperated in 6 passages of time.There is no contradictions only poor knowledge and understanding of the book itself.

WTF are talking about slavery?Another thing the word Slave or servant
in hewbrew means "worker".



Or how about God himself? You talk about repentance, but the Old Testament God seems to have very little interest in that! And that's when he was manifest... the New Testiment is just through Jesus. In the Old Testament where he speaks (and acts) he does a lot of punishment and precious little forgiveness... Oh, and this goes against your statement that he loves free will too... unless somehow the nature of God changed when Jesus came into existence? But if he's all powerful then he should have known the best course from the beginning you know... :)

He had brought out the law for the isrealites, Just like the U.S has laws today were can get executed for breaking certain ones.
The only time anyone was killed is because they desserved it for comiting a Horrible crime like Murder.If you think free will gives you the right to kill or do whatever you feel like your sadly mistaken .

In the old testament God didnt destroy Sodom and Gomorah untill he knew that every rightous honnest person was out of harms way. The story of Jonah he was going to do the same thing too Ninevah but he spared the city and forgave the people because they repented.God only kills the wicked.


Just showing how this can go around in circles. I find so much of it so arbitrary but it's that very fact that it does set down these absolutes (something the things we know as facts cannot do) is what makes it so attractive...

Oh yeah on a similar theme, belief is all well and fine but belief agaisnt proof is obstinate and only brings about bad things. Like not admitting that the Big Bang definitely happened and the clear trail of events we are tracking is what occurred and that evolution is how our species evolved. And you call yourself a liker of science! Sure scientists are often religious but your ideas here are just absurd for one who claims to like this stuff...
Just because you dont believe in Evolution doesnt mean you hate science , Evolution is a theory not a fact.




I mean, if you don't believe that the record we see is what happened what's stopping me from saying "the world was created exactly as it is (to the atom, which would set your thoughts in your brain as they are) one second ago" and having you unable to argue against it because you think God could have created the world from wholecloth 6000 years ago or something and us from mud? Of course no one could prove that statement wrong, but neither can anyone disprove the idea that God created us from nothing with the entire earth as it is (remember, the dinosaur bones are a temptation from God trying to pull us off the path that says that the world was created ~6000 years ago!)...
See above about what the Hebrew word "day "means



Oh yeah, and Marx was wrong about a whole lot of stuff, but he is absolutely right that religion is an opiate for the masses. It's hardly the only one, but it's a big one and has been for just about forever. I mean, it's a key part of keeping the population down in any society with unfairness! When the peasants are told by their priest -- the local voice of God -- that they were born in the station they deserve to be in and the only way to go to Heaven is to work hard and follow orders and do as your lords command, well, they listen and stay oppressed despite hardships because they want to go to Heaven... Nationalism works too (see Nazi Germany or Militarist Japan up to the end of WWII), but Religion is one of the best tried and true methods for getting people to do what you want.

How does that connect to what you said? As you might guess, religion keeps people doing things that can quite quickly reduce their lifespan (Banzai charges, the Crusades...)... as those examples show, religion when mixed with some kind of group identity -- nationalism, defending the Western world, and some 'other'... the Enemy. Utter evil, generally -- introduce any humanity in your enemy and you have more trouble killing them. But he CERTAIN that they are heathens doomed to die and burn in the fires forever, and tortures and massacre comes easy!

Marx was a idiot ignorant moronic athiest who thought he knew everything, Clearly his creation has done more damage too the world then religion. His view on religion was biggoted and generalize just like yours.Sure religion has been twisted by Terrorist and likes too do what they want just like nationalism or communism.

Darunia
Marx was a idiot ignorant moronic athiest who thought he knew everything, Clearly his creation has done more damage too the world then religion. His view on religion was biggoted and generalize just like yours.Sure religion has been twisted by Terrorist and likes too do what they want just like nationalism or communism.

Yes, because all atheists are idiots. You say it as though being a Freethinker is bad. Think outside of the box, if your Lord will let you. Which he won't. His creation is flawed; but it was a beautiful idea--everyone's equal, no more rich asshole capitalists owning 90% of their country. I'm unaware of his views on religion; but since you abhor them, they must be correct ones. Religion IS THE cause of the Middle Eastern violence! All the bloodshed caused by communism is far, FAR less than that of religion...and communism is on the way out; so doesn't that mean religion is too? Let's hope that 5,000 years of it haven't made it inextricable intwined with humanity. :shake:

Ryan
Actually, I'm very willing to bet that the last 100 years of communism killed more human beings than every religious war combined. According to "The Little Black Book of Communism", (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0674076087/inktomi-bkasin-20/ref%3Dnosim/002-5908799-8172814) there are about 100 million deaths attributed to Communist nations... in less than 100 years.
That's just in a hundred years. That's more people dead than lived on earth for probably half of civilization. The worst toll from religious warfare is generally attributed to the Crusades, of which there were several and spanned centuries. The toll? An estimated 2 million. In what, 400 years? It would take, at a conservative estimate, twnety-thousand years of constant warfare at the level of the Crusades to be able to match a hundred years of Communist savagery.

After all, is it worse to kill someone over religious differences, or to simply kill everyone indiscriminately? Let's also keep in mind that not only did two nations kill probably several times as many people in less than a hundred years than every religious war in human history, but that those two nations were officially atheist.

So much for free-thinking.

Darunia
Actually, I'm very willing to bet that the last 100 years of communism killed more human beings than every religious war combined.

I really doubt it. And if it were true, it'd only be owing to the increase in population---three centuries ago, 5,000 men was a big army, and when 35,000 were killed, it was a considerable loss. 5 million today wouldn't even slow down our population growth rate--but regardless, I don't believe it anyway.

According to "The Little Black Book of Communism", there are about 100 million deaths attributed to Communist nations... in less than 100 years.

Curiously well-rounded number.

After all, is it worse to kill someone over religious differences, or to simply kill everyone indiscriminately?

Over religions differences---at least that way, as long as you kill off a religious person, you're skimming the gene pool. :nodding:

Let's also keep in mind that not only did two nations kill probably several times as many people in less than a hundred years than every religious war in human history, but that those two nations were officially atheist.

And they were?

So much for free-thinking.

A bunch of questionable "facts", and ended it off with a cute little cliché. That's right; if communists were largely atheist, all atheist are genocidal madmen. I'd fix the real number of communist-related death at---well, I have no idea, but it's not 100 million. That's Weltaux logic for you.

alien space marine
Go worship Darwin Darunia and dont forget to hit yourself on the door on the way out.

:goron:

Great Rumbler
That's right; if communists were largely atheist, all atheist are genocidal madmen.

Yeah, you tell him, Darunia! Don't let him get away with GROSS EXAGGERATIONS AND GENERALIZATIONS like that! :rolleyes:

A Black Falcon
No nation has ever been Communist. They're all just disguised dictatorships. I don't know if any nation could... Marx is just too idealistic for his system to work in the real world. So saying Communism killed that many people is only true by the letter, in fact it was dictators that did it...

Oh, and the Bible. Look, it was written a LONG time ago... obviously some of its morality is not the same as ours. This is a fact; you can't deny it. We don't think exactly the same way now that we did then about these things. They prohibited plenty of things we allow and had much harsher punishments as well, as was normal in the ancient world... I'm not saying it's all bad or anything (obviously some things in it are good), just that you can't take it all as true or not (I'm sure that many of the legends in it are based on some fact, like legends often are... like the Flood and that fairly convincing theory that it (since so many cultures in the area have one its existance is thought to have happened in some form) was the flooding of the Black Sea when the Meditteranean broke through the Bosphorus...). The contradictions, like that second creation story in Genesis, support that as well.

alien space marine
Whats this second creation story your talking about? Maybe I could clear it up.

Great Rumbler
Yeah, what are you talking about, ABF?

A Black Falcon
Hmm... I don't have a bible right here... umm, I'll find it... ah here's one online.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen001.html

The first page has God creating the world in 6 days and resting on day 7...

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Gen/Gen002.html

The 'second creation' starts in Gen 2:4. Note that this time Woman is created from Man, while in the first it essentially just says 'man and woman were created'. Also, the (other) animals are created AFTER the people -- in the first one, it's animals first, then people.

Hmm? :)

What, in chuch they never mentioned the contradictions in the Bible? :)

Ryan
That's not a 'second creation', Genesis 2:4 begins the story, everything before it is like a synopsis of the Creation. 2:4 is where the details begin, and it restates some of what was in book 1. It's not the sort of writing structure anyone would use in contemporary literature, but it's not a second creation story, and honestly I've never even heard the idea put forth before.

I dunno how you got a 'second creation' out of that. Plus, it says Woman and Man are created much in the same way that one would say 'the twins were born', when it would be obviously inferred that one twin came first. You've read enough books to know better. You're just looking for the tiniest details, as if it discredits the very foundation of belief or something.

A Black Falcon
Not a different creation story though in one the humans are made before the rest of the animals and in the other they're after? :)

And yes obviously in the first one one has to come first, but it doesn't imply that one was created FROM the other. Important difference.

Ryan
Is that a totally different story, or a single discrepancy in the same story?

The Bible, after all, was written by humans. And translated into five zillion different languages. And taken into five zillion and four different contexts. That is why I interpret the bible very liberally. Knowing that some very corrupt people controlled access to the Bible for thousands of years, and that there are several versions of it now, make me unable to accept it as being true verbatim.

Again, I wonder if this is supposed to be some good reason not to have faith? I'm not convinced it is.

alien space marine
Not a different creation story though in one the humans are made before the rest of the animals and in the other they're after?


What your talking about is a synopses to the later chapter, God had created types of animals after Adam was made to help him.
2:18 God created domestic animals to help Adam after he was created.

A Black Falcon
No, it's not, just saying that you can't interpret the bible literally as some people seem to want to... it's hard to reconcile the 'written by people directly controlled by God' thing with the fact that it's not a perfect document...

Darunia
If God wanted to be taken seriously, why'd he have fallible humans interpret his word. Wouldn't it have been better to just wiggle his nose like Bewitched and produce a finished edition of his word. Why's he always taking the long way---like an all-powerful diety can do anything instantaneously, yet it took his seven days to create the world.

alien space marine
If God wanted to be taken seriously, why'd he have fallible humans interpret his word. Wouldn't it have been better to just wiggle his nose like Bewitched and produce a finished edition of his word. Why's he always taking the long way---like an all-powerful diety can do anything instantaneously, yet it took his seven days to create the world.

1.Because things needed to be calculated and refined and he probaily wanted to enjoy himself doing it,But if you concider the fact Jesus turned water into a sweet wine by just saying a pray I think he can do things instantaneously.

2.Would it make sense to drop books from the sky on people and then say read it?Some of the Bible books is personal journals and experiences from his Prophets.

Secondly the bible has been translated from language to language ,It goes from hebrew to Aramiac then greek and latin and finally to english I think any errors are the result of the translators, There are Bible versions that translated directly from the original hebrew and greek scriptures instead of being translated from other translations.

Finally quit bashing our beliefs, Were sopposed to live in a tolerant soceity not communist china.

Darunia
2.Would it make sense to drop books from the sky on people and then say read it?

God delivered the 10 Commandments instantaneously--why couldn't he have Moses or some other character discover the finished edition of the Bible on Mount Sinai?

Finally quit bashing our beliefs, Were sopposed to live in a tolerant soceity not communist china.

Quit referring me to a Nazi in your signature, you retarded, illiterate Canadian. And "fieur" is spelled Fuhrer. Espece de cul.

alien space marine
God delivered the 10 Commandments instantaneously--why couldn't he have Moses or some other character discover the finished edition of the Bible on Mount Sinai?
Thats alot of rocks moses would have had to carry , The bible waisnt written all at once . The new testament was sopposed to be written when Jesus arrived a thousand years later.Much of the bible is recorded journals of people who served god and wanted to share their history and hardships while serving god,the things god wanted written down he would send Angels and visions to the prophets and he knew people would learn better by following human examples who sufferd they same things they did then him doing it all himself.
The Ten commandments was so important God burned it down on rock slabs himself and had Moses then write it down on papper.

I am sorry but I couldnt find "Fuhrer" in the dictionary. stop calling my religion bull shit , Maybe I will stop calling you a nazi.