View Thread : News From the Goron Front


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Darunia
GORON CITY, HYRULE--In recent news from the Goron war front, the mighty Goron war machine has been almost entirely handicapped in its grand, glorious campaigns due to a crippling war against a computer virus. The Goron Imperial Army has been rendered virtually immobile for several weeks now, the Goron ambassador to Tendo City reports. "His Imperial Majesty, Emperor Darunia S. Goron XIV, wishes his loyal comrades at Tendo City to know that the war carries on, albeit not well," the ambassador told this correspondent at an interview in his Tendo City embassy. Putting down a warm plate of molten rocks, he continued, "but his majesty is growing concerned. The virus assumes the identity of a "kernel32.dll" file, and even now it grows in power. The Goron Army is hapless against a foe which will not fight in a conventional manner. This virus," the ambassador said even as he began to choke on tears, "it does not fight conventionally---it cannot be reasoned with. First, it just prevented us from using the Start Up menu in Windows... then it gave us all these bogus error messages. Then, the internet---we can get online, but neither AIM nor Internet Explorer function. Some programs, like Winamp, work normally; others, like Paint and JPeg-viewing programs freeze when used. It...it's just not human." The ambassador broke down at this point and the interview was terminated. On the war front, the Goron casualties continued to mount on Tuesday; numbering well into the tens of thousands. The Goron II Imperial Army was swiftly defeated by the Virus forces yesterday, and the war effort grows dim. If things continue as such, the hard drive will either need to be formatted, or worse, a new computer will need to be purchased. His Imperial Majesty sends his heavy-hearted greetings to the Tendo City establishment, and wishes them all well.
-------BARRY

OB1
... :muddled:

alien space marine
Thats his way of saying that he got a computer virus and thats why he haisnt been around the last few weeks.

To bad he missed my Goron hate propagonda.

Great Rumbler
I hate computer viruses.

Geno
Yes, Darunia likes to make announcements in the form of news reports. That way, he can boost his ego in the third person.

Dark Jaguar
So ASM, you are saying you are against hating gorons?

Isn't that cute? Widdle Dawunia's pooter caught a cold :D.

Great Rumbler
I can kind of sympathize with Darunia on this, my computer got a virus and I went through AT LEAST 11 kinds of hell getting it fixed.

UltraMarioMan
Excelent time to send in my Atomic Chimp armys.. *Guy comes out and whispers something to UMM* What do you mean its Chimp mating season and they're all doing it??!!

alien space marine
Darunia gave his computer a STD

Great Rumbler
Hahahaha...hahaha...haha...ha...seriously?!

lazyfatbum
"He can boost his ego in the third person."

hahahaha, like a 'Family newsletter' :D

Dark Jaguar
A family newsletter? What kind of arse would come up with something like that?

Geno
My computer might have a virus, it's been acting screwy lately. I haven't had to reformat it in over a year, but it may have to be reformatted again soon.

alien space marine
You need norton anti virus.

I had a trojan horse once , It kept deleting my D: drive and I had to keep reinstalling it so I could install norton anti virus.

Darunia
*Shakes head unapprovingly*

I try to let you folk know what I'm going through in a cute, creative manner---and I'm an egotistical idiot, to be mocked for my troubles. I'd expected best wishes and sympathy, and I get STD jokes and the likes. None of you know that beneath the Goron TC-façade I wear here, I have the lowest fucking self esteem of anyone I know. Far be it from me to enjoy a funny mock identity at a small-time videogames forum. In some aspects, perhaps having gotten this virus was for the better---it's given me a vacation from you. You people really do suck sometimes.

Darunia
Really disappointing.

Great Rumbler
Darunia, people aren't laughing AT you, they're laughing WITH you! Yeah...that's it.

Ryan
It's the mock identity everyone's making fun of. Nobody knows who the hell you really are.

lazyfatbum
(small-framed boy living with parents who plays Stratego in his underwear by himself)

UltraMarioMan
Weltall...your sig scares me...

geoboy
I should get one of those. But then people would be able to see all the gay music I listen to.

At least Darunia's self-esteem isn't so low that he resorts to ripping on himself like I do. :D

alien space marine
Darunia we were only joking, Look white fleck got teased on his birthday so your not alone.

My teasing has more to do with the fact you offended my most basic spiritual beliefs.

Undertow
It's the mock identity everyone's making fun of. Nobody knows who the hell you really are.

I'm the only one on the forums that knows his true identity.

Darunia gave his computer a STD

:clap:

Laser Link
ASM, how do think continually abusing someone because they disagree with you will ever win them over to your point of view? It's not a good strategy for any kind of disagreement, let alone something like God. Why would somebody want to be like you when you act like that? Joking is fine, just don't turn it into a personal vendetta.

EdenMaster
Shiggy caught a virus too. It's called DANCE FEVER!

:shiggy2:

*ahem*

My condolences for your computer woes. I myself had some trouble a while ago, the power supply literally fried itself...quite noisily I might add. I know the plight of viruses, the fear of not knowing if your hard drive contents will be there the next time you sit down at it. Good luck.

As for the mockery you recieve here, I don't think any of us wish you any ill will. We're simply having some fun with you, and as Weltall pointed out, we know nothing about you. You've told us for years that you are Darunia, King of Gorons, and that is the only way we know you. I don't think you can really get on us for messing with you when we're really just joking with your internet persona.

Darunia
*Caresses chin, interestingly*

I...swear that....I closed this thread...

EdenMaster
:dunno:

lazyfatbum
horse shit

alien space marine
ASM, how do think continually abusing someone because they disagree with you will ever win them over to your point of view? It's not a good strategy for any kind of disagreement, let alone something like God. Why would somebody want to be like you when you act like that? Joking is fine, just don't turn it into a personal vendetta.

Darunia has a vendetta agiast all of us who are not athiest.
I was joking mostly about everything in my sig.

Laser Link
Darunia has a vendetta agiast all of us who are not athiest.
And Islam teaches that by killing a non-believer you will be assured a place in heaven. Does that mean that Christians should start bombing every mosque we see? I remember reading that Jesus said something like "Love those who hate you", and I don't thinK Darunia really hates Christians. He's got his opinion and he is sick of people who disagree trying to shove their beliefs on him and attacking him the whole time. It seems to be the most common (and most wrong) technique people use, and I have no idea where this started. It's completely against what Christ did, but it's what Christians are known for.

I'm not trying to beat you down over this, because we all mess up and do stupid, mean things. But I am trying to encourage you to think about what you are doing and how you are living and see if it agrees with what you say you believe. Your goal should be to strive to know God more and to live a life that pleases him. Christianity is not about fire insurance for after we die. It's about living life to the fullest NOW. Take time to read the Bible and ask God for help- he will. We can't be perfect, but that doesn't mean we have an excuse for not trying. Think about it, kay?

lazyfatbum
Christians force beliefs just like anyone else who forces any other opinion. When you have an opinion on something that you want people to agree with you on, you get really ambitious about it and you start to preach it like it's more than opinion. The result is basically someone forcing their ideas on someone else in order to feel justified for having the opinion in the first place.

A true believer and someone who is confident in their faith (in religion or otherwise) will not force their ideas on someone else. In contrast, it's actually difficult to convert to Judaism since most temples will try to persuade people not to convert. This is done soley for the reason of making sure that the people who come to temple have faith in their beliefs, not searching for faith, as is the case for most christian-base religions.

All people should follow the example of Jesus, not for his faith but his teachings, but that is a harsh reality not many can surrender to. Love my enemy more than my friend? Shit. I cant imagine living like that. Neither can the rest of the world.

alien space marine
I can understand that some people have given Darunia bad experiences and thats why he hates christians, I wish he would see not all of us are like that.
Your right it is human nature to push your opinions on other people thats why people fight over Democrat and republican or Hockey vs Football.

The reason I had taken it out at Darunia is because pushed his opinions on me in the debate forum.

But maybe I will stop making fun of him.

lazyfatbum
*angel gets wings*

OB1
And Islam teaches that by killing a non-believer you will be assured a place in heaven. Does that mean that Christians should start bombing every mosque we see? I remember reading that Jesus said something like "Love those who hate you", and I don't thinK Darunia really hates Christians. He's got his opinion and he is sick of people who disagree trying to shove their beliefs on him and attacking him the whole time. It seems to be the most common (and most wrong) technique people use, and I have no idea where this started. It's completely against what Christ did, but it's what Christians are known for.

I'm not trying to beat you down over this, because we all mess up and do stupid, mean things. But I am trying to encourage you to think about what you are doing and how you are living and see if it agrees with what you say you believe. Your goal should be to strive to know God more and to live a life that pleases him. Christianity is not about fire insurance for after we die. It's about living life to the fullest NOW. Take time to read the Bible and ask God for help- he will. We can't be perfect, but that doesn't mean we have an excuse for not trying. Think about it, kay?

There is nothing in the Quran which states that killing a non-believer will get you a place in heaven. That is what Islamic extremists believe in, and they twist the writings around to suit their twisted cause. Much like the Christians during the Crusade, I might add.

A Black Falcon
True, but it is true that the main Muslim prophet is Mohammad -- a violent, warmongering imperialist. Quite different from Jesus. Of course when you think how Christians have ACTED they're about the same, though...

OB1
Muhammad did kill men, but it was always in self defence. During his thirteen years in Mecca, he and his followers edured incredibly violent persecutions, and many of his followers were killed. Muhammad fled from place to place, and his persecuters always followed him. The people who persecuted him were incredible savage. They would go from village to village, slaughtering people and taking their women and children captive. It was only after thirteen years of persectution, from fleeing from these people that Muhammad took up arms and defended himself and his people. The people who were after him would kill all of the men and take the women and children as slaves, and it wouldn't have ended.

lazyfatbum
I also read something that Islam countries teach that by killing someone who is against Muhammad, you get in to heaven. The people they kill are called 'Infidels'.

But man, having the 70 virgins and all the steaks I can eat... after I die, sounded really awesome.

Laser Link
OB1, I think you may be wrong about this. I have heard all the PC people saying that Islam is just a wonderful thing and the suicide bombers are just radicals who twisted things to their own ways. And all of that has come after 9-11, when people were so afraid of backlash against Arabs and Muslims here. However, I have heard from other people who have lived in Muslim countries or have Muslim friends who have said the opposite. I did a quick search on google and found site of both opinions, both claiming the other guys took everything out of context, and I could see the point both were making. One quote that jumped out at me that I never saw refuted was this:

"The believers who stay at home??apart from those that suffer a grave impediment??are not the equals of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home ..."

That says to me that you are encourage to kill nonbelievers if you want better rewards after you die. Now maybe it too is taken out of context and it is in truth analogous to draft dodging, I don't know.

You say that he only killed out of self defense, but I haven't read anything like that. What I've read, and never found refuted, is that he tortured people who wouldn't convert to Islam.

"A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, ?O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk.? Allah's Apostle said, ?I recommend that you should join the herd of camels.? So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died." (Hadith, Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 261: Narrated by Anas bin Malik.)

The oldest still-available biography of Muhammad is called the "Sirat Rasul Allah" ("Life of the Prophet of Allah"). This book was written by Ibn Ishaq a century before any of the major works of the Hadith. "Sirat Rasulallah" is considered the most authentic biography of Muhammad. On page 515, we read of an event that took place about three years before Muhammad's death. This specific narrative tells of Muhammad?s conquest of Khaibar, a large Jewish settlement with some of the best date palms in the region. The Jews of Khaibar were prosperous merchants, craftsmen, and farmers. Kinana al-Rabi, who was said to have had the custody of a certain hidden treasure, was brought to Muhammad who asked him about it. Kinana denied that he knew where it was. A Jew came to the apostle and said that he had seen Kinana going round a certain ruin every morning early. When the apostle said to Kinana, "Do you know that if we find you have it I shall kill you?" he said "Yes." Muhammad gave orders that the ruin be excavated and some of the treasure was found. When he asked Kinana about the rest of the treasure he refused to produce it, so the apostle gave orders to al-Zubayr Al-Awwam, "Torture him until you extract what he has." So he kindled a fire with flint and steel on his chest until he was nearly dead. Then Muhammad delivered him to Muhammad b. Maslama and he struck off his head. Were Muhammad?s actions in keeping with a religion that is for peace? And this is only one such example among many. <a href="http://www.answering-islam.org/TWOR/peacepromoting.html">link</a>
And yes, I know of the examples of the Crusaders and the Conquistadors, and all the other people who have done the same. My point is that this is Muhammad. the prophet. Not the people who claimed to be followers who just twisted the truth to their own desires. It is completely contrary to Jesus' examples, even when faced with torture and death. When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, Peter attacked them. But Jesus told him to stop, and then healed the man who had come to arrest him. (Mathew 26:50-54)

And to top it off, those who really did follow him lived the same. Later when the Jews were hunting and killing the first of what we now call Christians, they didn't fight back. Stephen was stoned, and he prayed for the people who killed him (Acts 7). THere are countless examples int eh New Testament of people who believed in Jesus being tortured and killed for this belief, and not once did they retaliate. History is full of similar examples, like the Roman emporors who would capture every Christian they could find, and not just kill them, but throw them into collisiums to be destroyed by lions, or burned at the stake, or whatever else they could discover. That is true history, and whether you want to believe the Bible or not, you have to admit that is the truth.

And if you still don't believe me, what about the places today like China, Tibet, Nepal, or ANY Muslim country where it is illegal to be a Christian? If you are found you are thrown in jail or killed. Read <a href="http://www.persecution.org/">this</a> or <a href="http://www.persecutedchurch.org/index.cfm">this</a> for more. Tell me again that Islam promotes peace and goodwill to all. That seems a little different from the US, which was based on Christian beliefs and the desire for everyone to have freedom of religion. Muslims are not hunted and killed here. Budhists are not. Followers of the Baha'i Faith are not. Atheists are not. You can believe what you want, and are free to disagree and have talks likes this. In many parts of the world, I would be killed for saying what I am now. Possesion of a Bible means prison. But do you ever hear about Christians who rebel and kill police or soldiers because they were being persecuted. If Muhammad really believed what he claimed, that Martyrs for Allah will receive paradise, then why did he fight. The sites that do say Islam promotes peace are quick to point out that they believe that matyrs will be greatly rewarded- but you can't be a martyr if you attack others. But here Muhammad is fighting back to defend himself. To me that doesn't add up.

On the other hand, I know people who live in China and Nepal, in Muslim countries, who are trying to tell these people about Jesus. Not because they feel have to for salvation. Not because they want to conquer or control these people. But it's because they love them. They are willing to give up EVERYTHING - computers, video games, tv, movies, the entire American lifestyle and all the great things we enjoy - to tell these people the good news that they can be free. And even though it is illegal and the price they pay if caught is high, Christianity is growing exponentially in these places. Christianity is not a Western idea. The largest church for many years was in South Korea at around 70,000, but now Christian churches in Africa (Etheopia, I think, but I can't remember of the top of my head) are hundreds of thousands of people in size. They have services all day every day. And despite the best efforts of leaders all around the world, Christianity is growing and growing. Why? These people were not rasied with these beliefs. It is not part of their culture. So why suddenly turn away from how you were raised and all that you ever believed, risking death in the process?

I've said this many times, but it is so often misunderstood that I need to say it again. Christianity is not about going to heaven instead of hell. That's a fantastic thing, but that puts the whole emphasis on dying. In truth Jesus says "I have come so that you may have life, and have it to the full." It's about living life now. It's about a reason to get up in the morning, it's about something that will FINALLY satisfy the deepest hole in your life that you've tried to fill with everything else but you still feel empty. I didn't understand this until a few years ago, and my life has changed completely. Call me insane or delusional or whatever else. I know that I used to be miserable even though I've been a Christian all my life. I know that I hated life, I felt worthless and stupid, and I felt there was no hope for anything better. I did all the good things that religion is all about - like not swearing or lying or getting into trouble. Basically being a boring loser with no life and no fun. But it didn't do anything for me and I was still miserable. And then I finally gave in to God and let him be the friend and savior I needed, not the Big, Angry Diety in the Sky I thought he was. And everything changed. For me it wasn't an overnight thing, but consistently everyday I grow closer to God. I love talking to God because it's not a duty anymore. I love reading the Bible because it encourages me to strive to better myself to honor God and serve others. No, I'm not perfect yet, but the great thing about God is that there is always grace. Grace to forgive and grace to change.

Anyway, I was never intending to go here when I said that. It was an example off the top of my head. I was only trying to say that revenge is not the answer. "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Maybe you've seen that on a bumper sticker- I know I have many times. And judging by the other stickers that tend to accompany that one, it's someone who thinks they are making a point to Christians, not even realizing that it is the core of what Jesus was about. I was only trying to encourage ASM to think about it for a second, because it is so easy to react out of anger.

It is human nature to react and get offended when others hurt or insult you. That is why you always hear about Christians protesting something or whining about something. But the thing is, Jesus has the power to set you free from human nature. Paul talks about it a lot in Romans 8. "Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires." and a few verses later: "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you." Basically, it's saying that everyone lives by human nature, which wants to please itself. Me first, looking out for number one, I do whatever seems right to me... Maybe you will disagree, but I think that is the basis of everything that is wrong with the world. Why does somebody steal? Because they care more about themselves than the one who they are robbing. Why do people murder? Because they want to satisfy their own desires regardless of the consequences it has to anyone else. It's even evidenced in little things like not wanting to do your chores.

Maybe you don't even think it's a big deal cause you haven't done anything too bad. But haven't you ever gotten so angry about something that youlost control? Maybe for a second, or a minute, or maybe you were angry with the world for a week. And every time you seem to get more angry or you get frustrated about things that never bothered you before. You guys know it's true! That's because you don't really have complete control over your actions and thoughts. I hated being a slave to human nature, and now that God controls my life, I don't have to be. Now sometimes I mess up and turn away from God, but then I realize what a mess I've made and he's always there to forgive, even though I don't deserve it.

OB1, from what I have read Baha'i teaches Jesus is one of many messengers from God and that the meaning of life is to know God. "The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence." That is awesome! So few people understand that, even people who believe in God. The thing is, Jesus said that he is the only way to God and himself God, not just a prophet. That is not the kind of statement you hear people make every day, and it doesn't fit with the idea that he is one of many prophets. I think you have to make a decision, that either everything he said is true or everything he said is bogus. Because either he was God or he was insane. Have you read the Gospel? I only ask because most Christians don't even read the Bible, and think quotes like "God helps those who help themselves" are scripture. Maybe you have thought about this and spent time studying, but if not I encourage you to do so. Read what Jesus said and look at how he lived and decide for yourself. At least then you will know you have all the facts before deciding. Just think about it, kay?

You guys know I don't bring this up often. I wasn't even trying to talk about it when this all started. I just wanted to give ASM something to think about, because I used to attack everyone who didn't believe the same as me and now I feel very bad about itm because I was a bad example of what Jesus is all about. So that's the only reason I said anything. And I'm only writing this huge core dump because I couldn't stop once I started. :) I'm not going to force this on anybody else. It's just that there are so many misconceptions about Christianity (created mostly by people who claimed to follow Jesus, but only as a little God-in-a-box to justify their own sin and grant their wishes) and I don't want my friends to never learn the truth- so they can make their own educated decisions for their own life.

It's like the Matrix, guys. I've been unplugged, and I want you to be too. Nobody in the Matrix thinks there is anything wrong- they don't know any better. I can't prove it to you. You have to take the red pill and find out for yourself. I don't claim an easy life or that everything will be perfect from now on. In fact, it's actually the opposite, because now you are a threat. But now you will have the power to overcome, and it's so worth it.

alien space marine
Laser link I am impressed by your knowledge.

lazyfatbum
Dude, that was awesome. Thank you.

One thing though, Jews didn't kill Christians on some massive scale or anything. Rome did though. Many many years after Jesus a reform happened among Jews and they separated in to two sects one of which evolved in to Christianity. Jews were afraid of this of course, just as any religion would be afraid of having itself branched off in to another direction and there were many debates and fights but never an attempt at genocide. Some Christians even believe that Christianity is the true Judaism, that we follow the King of the Jews.

Above all things presented in the bible, it teaches us to hate Rome. All white people have blood ties to Rome and for 15 thousand years it was the Anglo Saxon Mecca of the world and was very powerful and corrupt, more powerful than any country that has ever existed since. The people who tried to separate themselves from this entity of what they considered to be evil were the Jews.

They were Romans who left Rome in the hope of creating a society with more freedom and good will, that society was created out in the deserts away from Rome's eyes. (Keep in mind that the Jews wrote both the old and new testament); When they saw people following a living man (Jesus), who promised that he was the son of God, many of the officials were frightened and were reminded of their Roman roots, a place where people would follow a living man, a self-proclaimed God and much of that idea led to Rome's corruption. But many Jews wrote that Jesus was a savior, saving the Jews from their own corruption because they had turned the temples in to banks and no longer loved God.

Many many many many many years later we would re-tell that story in the re-written New Testament. That Jesus is our savior and that he will bring us closer to God with tons of embellishments and what not but that doesn't matter, the embellishments are only there to help people realize what an important figure he is to everyone's life since if he would not of existed, everything as we know it would be very different. The high priests would have collapsed Judaism under a veil of seemingly innocent corruption, Rome would have become even stronger as the white Mecca and would probably be a super power today that wouldn't have let any other countries form without its approval (and ownership) and we would all be speaking a form of Latin... well, we already do that, but you get my point.

OB1
LL, I respect your opinions and don't wish to force my own beliefs on yours, but I encourage you to do more independant research on your own regarding these topics.

If a person wants to find something bad about something that he or she does not agree with, then they will find it. You will find books of every kinds from over the centuries speaking ill of Muhhamad, Jesus, Moses, you name it. I'm sure you've encountered a few people who've used the passages in the Old Testament (where directions are given of how to sell your daughter to slavery, etc.) against you.

Also, again, what you've heard of only Christians being persecuted in many Muslim countries isn't true. It is illegal in China to teach just about any religion, and you cannot have religioug gatherings of more than a handful of people. I have a lot of Baha'i friends living in China so I'm well aware of this face. In Iran, Baha'is have been persecuted since the beginning of the Faith, and they still are today.

I also want to set something straight. Bahai's do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, although the interpretations of what that means exactly differ. I have studied the Bible, and am confident in my own beliefs. I'm very happy that you too, are confident in your own beliefs and wish to spread that message to those in need. I respect your beliefs and your opinions, and the only thing I ask is that you do the same. :) If you'd like to continue this discussion, a more intimate manner might be better. You can reach me at [email protected]

alien space marine
where directions are given of how to sell your daughter to slavery

I never heard of this , I knew that Abraham had slaves , But back then you couldnt just hire employees to work your farm so they had no choice but to buy slaves to help out in the feilds.But the scriptures say that he had taken care of them compassionately and conciderd them part of his family.Abraham was peaceful man who helped anyone in need.

OB1
If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. (Exodus 21:1)

If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. (Exodus 21:7)


And before you go "GASP!", back then these were actually pretty radical laws and they did make the situation of slavery better. A demand for the complete eradication of slavery would have been seen as pure insanity and nothing would have come from it.

Darunia
I didn't know that God condoned slavery.

ASM---can't you even spell in French? What's a Nepolian?

Undertow
ASM---can't you even spell in French?

He should learn to spell in English first.

Laser Link
Obi, I did not mean to say that only Christians are persecuted, but in truth I had not heard of others who have been either. It certainly makes sense that anyone with spiritual beliefs would be in China, but I had not heard about that before now.

I know that you can always find something to back up what you what to believe, and that is why I tried to make it clear that I don't know all the facts, and have found people and websites debating back and forth and each saying the other is wrong. But I have heard from people who know a lot more than I and who I trust to give me the truth. I am going to Morocoo this summer and we've had some discussions about this, but I will keep searching on my own and looking for the truth about this. Do you have any suggestions on where to start?

Lazy, I didn't mean to say that Jews hunted Christians on a large scale. They were the ones who persecuted anyone who followed Jesus in the first century, because they believed that the Messiah was supposed to set them free from being subject to Rome and that he would lead them to victory over the entire world. They didn't understand that Jesus did come to set them free, but not from a political rule. Instead he set them free from sin so they could have a life worth living. They also considered him a threat since he rebuked the religious leaders for being hypocrites, but by 70 AD Roman soldiers had conquered and destroyed Jerusalem completely, essentially ending the Jewish nation until this century.

Also, it is not true that the Bible teaches to hate Rome. After Jesus was killed, many of the Jews who believed in him thought that only Jews could come to God, and they refused to talk to the Gentiles, which is a fancy way of saying anyone who isn't a Jew. But through a series of events God showed them that his message was for everyone. And many of these early apostles spent their entire lives reaching the Greeks and the Romans and everyone they could possibly get to. The most well known of these was Paul, and he travled all over the Mediteranean all the way to Spain. The book of Romans is one of the most fundamental and important books in the Bible in that it goes through the entire process of why humanity needed Jesus, how we can be saved, and how to live after we decide to give our lives to God. And this letter was written by Paul to early Christians in Rome, so he certainly wasn't hating them. The Jews as a whole, on the other hand, never did accept Jesus as who he said he was. He was not a Savior to them, but a blasphemer and liar. And to this day Jews are waiting for the promised Savior to come.

I'm confused that say Rome was in power for 15 thousand years. Did you mean 15 hundred years? The historical records are archeological evidence say that Rome was founded around 750 BC and collapsed around 476 AD, which is a little more than 1200 years.

I also disagree with you when you say that the New Testament was re-written to change the story. I know you have mentioned this before, and I have also heard other people suggest this same idea. As you probably know, I believe that the Bible is the word of God and is completely true and unchanged, so that's why I am quick to jump at this one and disagree. :)

However, it is not just on faith that I accept the Bible to be completely true. There have been times where I have wondered how to know if it is really true. It has been 2-6 thousand years since these were written, depending on what part of the Bible you talk about, and it could have been changed. So much of what I believe, well all of it in fact, is based on what the Bible says. So why do I believe it is true aside from just faith?

Well first of, it does depend on what you consider change. Obviously the language has been changed, because I can't read Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic. And it is reasonable to assume that as someone was copying the Bible by hand, there could have been mistakes, or a misunderstanding of the actual translation, or maybe they just had bad handwriting. Over time these mistakes would compound and the original message could be changed.

However, as the Bible is the most popular book ever, there has been a lot of research to find if it is true. We have many copies of the original text, and they match up extremely well. There are some discrepancies, but very minor, as in a word changed slightly to a different meaning. Also, the Jews had a practice of burning or burying a manuscript that had become very old, so there were only a few surviving manuscripts by the 10th century.

Then just over 50 years ago they discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls, an ancient manuscript that contained sections of every book of the Old Testament except Esther. Scientists believe the Dead Sea Scrools are the oldest remaing copies of the scriptures, as much as 1000 years older than the previous oldest existing copies. The amazing thing is that it was word for word perfect in over 95%, and the differences that did exist were minor changes and mistakes that did not change the meaning of the text.

As for the New Testament, there are over 5000 copies of it dated from within the first and second century AD, and many of them have been found in other languages and other places aside from Greek and Aramaic. They all agree almost exactly, with some small differences in certain, minor things.

For example, that Greek has several different words for "love" that all mean slightly different things.
Eros: A physical love, like between husband and wife.
Stergo: A love between famimly members, like between parents and children.
Philo: Love between friends, not in a sexual way.
Agape: Unconditional love, this is always how the love of God for us is written

Now when translating this to English, we only have one word for love. So they write love, and in a foot note will mention what kind of love this refers to. You could argue that the English translation is now not 100% accurate, but it is to the best of their ability and the meaning has really not changed. Some people believe that the King James Version is the only true translation, but I can guarantee you that Jesus never said "Thou". It was just the language of the time. We now have many different translations in English. There is New American Standard, New Living Translation, New International Version, and on and on. They all have some differences. Like the NAS is a little older and sounds a little more stiff than modern English. The NIV is very close to what we use today, and a version called The Message is very conversational and uses a lot of slang. But they are all translated by many, many scholars who study all of the oldest available manuscripts and provide the most accurate translation possible. I have good friend of my parents who knows Greek, and has studied the New Testament in it's original language. It's not uncommon for a pastor to know some Greek, becuase it is a common subject in bible schools.

There is no evidence to suggest that the Bible has been changed over time. There is more collaborating evidence for the Bible than any other book or manuscript. Don't you think that if there really was evidence that the Bible was changed it would be very well known? Scientists and scholars are always trying to destroy the Bible, but they have not found anything to back their beliefs. In fact, some of the people who first intended to disprove the Bible have instead found the evidence to be so overwhelmingly in favor of the Bible that they have become Christians.

One last thing about this: One thing I was often taught in college math classes was to perform a sanity check on your answer. Basically, it just means to see if the answer makes sense at all. So I propose this: If the Bible was change, why would the hero die? Why would he reject all the things we enjoy in life. If someone was trying to corrupt it, why would they instead make something that is completely against all human reasoning? How can one man dying save all of mankind? Why would they change it to say that you should love your enemy instead of getting the justice you deserve? Why would they tell you it was impossible to do it on your own, and doing good isn't enough? Is there any other religion that teaches that? Why would they say that Jesus is the only way instead of the idea that he is one of many prophets that many other religions say? Wouldn't they clean up the problems that the other famous Biblical leaders had? Like David's adultery? Like the continual rebellion and disobedience of the Jews away from God. If you are trying to make God look better, wouldn't you make his chosen people win all the battles in the end and live happily ever after? The truth the Bible teaches is completely opposite of human nature and goes against everything people want to believe, which is why it is so vehemently opposed.

This is just a small defense of the validity of the Bible. If you really want the truth, my arguments won't convince you. There are people who have devoted their entire lives to studying this, and there have been many books written about it. Read something like <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785243631/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/102-0695780-3900154?v=glance&s=books&vi=customer-reviews>this</a> or <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0310209307/102-0695780-3900154?v=glance">this</a>.

Lazy, I consider you my friend and I look up to you in so many ways. You are the funniest person I know, and I am amazed at your discipline to do such hard school work so quickly and so well. I know first hand how difficult school really is, and you are an inspiration to me to keep pushing on and to chase my dreams. You are also a very intelligent person. Many of my engineering friends foolishly think that you have to be a math expert or programmer or physicist to be intelligent, but I think that people can be smart and talented in many ways besides engineering. Please don't take any of this as a personal attack against you. I don't want to lose you as a friend.

I don't intend to push this on anybody. I do think a lot of what you said is not true, but there is a lot I once believed that I now know is also not true. I remember hearing a story of NASA scientists who were trying to calculate the age of the earth based on all sorts of stuff, and supposedly there was some discrepancy that messed their calcualtions up, like there was an extra half a day that they couldn't account for. One of the scientist pointed out the account in the Bible of God making the sun stand still during a battle to helpot the Israelites win, and when they put this information in everything worked perfectly. I had heard this story many times, but when I began to research it to find the specifics I found the entire thing is made up. Not only that, but it has existed in one form or another for hundreds of year, with the scientists using an abacus or who knows what to prove the Bible is real. This is just one example of the some of the lies I've come across where people have thought they needed to make something up to prove the Bible is true. But the truth always comes out, and these people make everyone who believes in God look a fool.

I know that we could all sit here and discuss evidence until we die of old age and nobody could change their mind about anything. That is why I hate debates, because usually we get too caught up in winning than searching. Pride is a powerful thing. If nothing else this talk has convinced me I need to do a lot more research in this, because I would like to give you concrete answers but I just don't have the specific numbers a lot fof the time,a nd that does little to convince you of anything. I've spent a lot of time here just trying to learn more about people who don't believe the same things I do. I thank you guys for being honest and hope we can always all be open minded about all this stuff. I'm not very good at communicating and making a clear concise point, which is why I tend to ramble on for pages and pages... But thanks for putting up with me anyway.

OB1
I didn't mean to make you sound ignorant, it's just that not everyone who you may come across will have all of the facts. :)

My family and I almost moved to China in 1994, actually, but we opted to move to Croatia where my mother is from. I have a lot of friends in China, and I'm well acquainted with what religious teachers can and cannot do there.

I don't know anyone who's been to Morocco, but if you know people who've been there I would talk in great depth about what you should be careful of on your visit. The first thing I'd suggest--and I suggest this if you're going to any country in that region--is to try to mask your American identity. You have to be very careful about this, as we are especially hated in that part of the world. If people ask, say that you're Canadian, no matter how embarrasing that may be ( :p ), and don't bring anything with you (other than the obvious things such as a passport) that will make you stand out as a U.S. citizen.

alien space marine
didn't know that God condoned slavery

He doesnt, Abraham was a sinful imperfect man like the rest of us, In Abrahams time people would be sold as slaves for comiting crimes and lose their freedom as a punnishment this was somthing the Egyptians and other ancient goverments had done.The romans did it too soldiers who disorted would be sold as slaves and possibly fight in a Gladiator arena.

the reason Abraham owned slaves was because he had not had any sons untill he was a old man, He needed someone to help care for his sheep and his farm, Seeing as how brutal people in the world treated slaves wiping and so fourth, I think he bought them to save them from that brutality. Mosiac law was not written at that time so Abraham had no guidance in what God thought was wrong so he had to go by what God told him and his own concious. When christianity came Jesus wanted all the slaves to be freed and taught the word of god.

UltraMarioMan
But man, having the 70 virgins and all the steaks I can eat... after I die, sounded really awesome.
Or 70 raisins depending on the translation!

lazyfatbum
Haha, yeah, I did mean 15 hundred. Officially though, they began in 1000 BC as a farm colony and didn't end until the 800's AD when the last of their empire was sacked.

LL, I really want to debate alot of the things you're bringing up with facts and real history. I want to talk to you about the 20 year gap in the life of Jesus and the entire Jewish history so you can get a real understanding of it and I want to show you that all religions, especially Christianity is based on fear and the power to control people in society. But I wont and the reason is that it doesn't matter what is fact, it doesn't matter what is truth, all that matters is what helps us in our lives and Christianity has obviously helped you, God bless you. I hope it proves to be even more successful for you in your life.

OB1/ Fuck Muslims. They are an inhuman race of idiot savages. Why dont you and all your little muslim buddies go pray to some bricks, douche bag. (What? I cant just leave the thread without starting a new argument now can I!?)

alien space marine
concidering the Koran gives someone the right to kill I have to agree with lazyfatbum.

Darunia
OB1/ Fuck Muslims. They are an inhuman race of idiot savages. Why dont you and all your little muslim buddies go pray to some bricks, douche bag.

Lol.

A Black Falcon
And yes, I know of the examples of the Crusaders and the Conquistadors, and all the other people who have done the same. My point is that this is Muhammad. the prophet. Not the people who claimed to be followers who just twisted the truth to their own desires. It is completely contrary to Jesus' examples, even when faced with torture and death. When the soldiers came to arrest Jesus, Peter attacked them. But Jesus told him to stop, and then healed the man who had come to arrest him. (Mathew 26:50-54)

I read a book about the Crusades last year... from a more Muslim point of view. I'd say that not only were the Christians bad, they were substantially worse than the Muslims. Saladin frequently was merciful and let people live while the Crusaders had a long bloody history of brutally slaughtering captives and wiping out cities...

Talk all you want about the few exceptions who did try to act like Jesus and turn the other cheek, but there are a thousand (or a million) Christians who did the opposite for every one of them. Oh sure they weren't acting by truly Christian principles, but did that matter to THEM? Massacring heathens is what God wants!

Above all things presented in the bible, it teaches us to hate Rome.

Ah, but Rome was converted in the end... there are good arguements that that conversion was one of the many factors that helped speed its decline, but still, it was
converted.


OB1, from what I have read Baha'i teaches Jesus is one of many messengers from God and that the meaning of life is to know God. "The purpose of God in creating man hath been, and will ever be, to enable him to know his Creator and to attain His Presence." That is awesome! So few people understand that, even people who believe in God. The thing is, Jesus said that he is the only way to God and himself God, not just a prophet. That is not the kind of statement you hear people make every day, and it doesn't fit with the idea that he is one of many prophets. I think you have to make a decision, that either everything he said is true or everything he said is bogus. Because either he was God or he was insane. Have you read the Gospel? I only ask because most Christians don't even read the Bible, and think quotes like "God helps those who help themselves" are scripture. Maybe you have thought about this and spent time studying, but if not I encourage you to do so. Read what Jesus said and look at how he lived and decide for yourself. At least then you will know you have all the facts before deciding. Just think about it, kay?


Sorry for it, but I have to say it... someone who acted like Jesus these days would go straight to an asylum... from my view he was a somewhat crazy man who had some views which are nearly impossible to follow but would be good if people did (love your enemy, turn the other cheek, etc...). And of course from the position of the authorities he was a dangerous rabble-rouser (which he certainly was) who threated the peace and so he had to be gotten rid of...

Oh yeah, and, um, isn't 'is Jesus the son of God, part of God, etc' a major arguement in Christianity which there is no common agreement on? :)

Lazy, I didn't mean to say that Jews hunted Christians on a large scale. They were the ones who persecuted anyone who followed Jesus in the first century, because they believed that the Messiah was supposed to set them free from being subject to Rome and that he would lead them to victory over the entire world. They didn't understand that Jesus did come to set them free, but not from a political rule. Instead he set them free from sin so they could have a life worth living. They also considered him a threat since he rebuked the religious leaders for being hypocrites, but by 70 AD Roman soldiers had conquered and destroyed Jerusalem completely, essentially ending the Jewish nation until this century.

Self-proclaimed prophets wandering among the common people saying things that could incite them to do things the leaders would not like... of course they'd try to supress it, especially under a foreign military dictatorship that at times got violent... oh sure Jesus's message wasn't about setting people free from political rule, but would that REALLY have mattered if he'd riled them up enough? Didn't think so. Sure their methods were brutal, but from the perspective of the people in charge he was most certainly dangerous, political asperations or no...

I'm confused that say Rome was in power for 15 thousand years. Did you mean 15 hundred years? The historical records are archeological evidence say that Rome was founded around 750 BC and collapsed around 476 AD, which is a little more than 1200 years.

But it only became a power of note in the 300s or so (200s?) BC, with the wars against Carthage... before that it was just a city-state, really.

Unless of course you add the Byzantine Empire, which lasted another thousand years... but in the East, not in Rome. :)

Also, again, what you've heard of only Christians being persecuted in many Muslim countries isn't true. It is illegal in China to teach just about any religion, and you cannot have religioug gatherings of more than a handful of people. I have a lot of Baha'i friends living in China so I'm well aware of this face. In Iran, Baha'is have been persecuted since the beginning of the Faith, and they still are today.

Yeah, I thought Baha'i was from Iran... and China of course persecutes everyone equally. :)

There is no evidence to suggest that the Bible has been changed over time. There is more collaborating evidence for the Bible than any other book or manuscript. Don't you think that if there really was evidence that the Bible was changed it would be very well known? Scientists and scholars are always trying to destroy the Bible, but they have not found anything to back their beliefs. In fact, some of the people who first intended to disprove the Bible have instead found the evidence to be so overwhelmingly in favor of the Bible that they have become Christians.


The Christian Bible has been pretty much set since that meeting sometime in the early years (200s?) when the Christian leadership decided which books to keep and which not to... except for things like translation errors of course, you're right that it's been pretty much the same since then. But you still have to wonder why they got rid of the books they did... to shape the book for the message they wanted to get out best, I imagine. But it was a decision by men for what exactly is in our Bible. They didn't just put in all of the Gospels (like the Gospel of Thomas, I think... wasn't that left out at that point?)!

One last thing about this: One thing I was often taught in college math classes was to perform a sanity check on your answer. Basically, it just means to see if the answer makes sense at all. So I propose this: If the Bible was change, why would the hero die? Why would he reject all the things we enjoy in life. If someone was trying to corrupt it, why would they instead make something that is completely against all human reasoning? How can one man dying save all of mankind? Why would they change it to say that you should love your enemy instead of getting the justice you deserve? Why would they tell you it was impossible to do it on your own, and doing good isn't enough? Is there any other religion that teaches that? Why would they say that Jesus is the only way instead of the idea that he is one of many prophets that many other religions say? Wouldn't they clean up the problems that the other famous Biblical leaders had? Like David's adultery? Like the continual rebellion and disobedience of the Jews away from God. If you are trying to make God look better, wouldn't you make his chosen people win all the battles in the end and live happily ever after? The truth the Bible teaches is completely opposite of human nature and goes against everything people want to believe, which is why it is so vehemently opposed.

Because without Jesus dying Christianity probably wouldn't exist. And if it did in nothing like its current form. They needed a martyr! Having it be the founder of the sect makes it even better... I'm sure that like all books that were written after events they are not exactly accurate (:D), but again like most books that talk of events that supposedly happened there's truth in them in almost all cases... and the closer to the event, usually the more truth is in the story.

Though choosing a torture implement/execution device as your main symbol does seem a bit morbid. :D

OB1
OB1/ Fuck Muslims. They are an inhuman race of idiot savages. Why dont you and all your little muslim buddies go pray to some bricks, douche bag. (What? I cant just leave the thread without starting a new argument now can I!?)

Wow, I hope you were just in your joke prejudice mode right there because right now you look worse than a hundred nickdaddyg's, ASMs, and Darunias combined.

And I'm not a Muslim.

A Black Falcon
And I'm not a Muslim.

Muslims, other non-Christians, same thing... :)

(wait, that includes me too... Unitarian Universalism doesn't consider itsself Protestant anymore...)

Ryan
lmao, OB1 overreacted.

OB1
Well what can I say, I'm never quite sure whenever lazy makes one of his bigoted comments if it's a joke or not. That didn't sound like a joke.

However, if it was a joke then please accept my apology lazy and ignore my post.

A Black Falcon
It sounded like a joke to me...

OB1
Well I hope you're right. :)

alien space marine
Sorry for it, but I have to say it... someone who acted like Jesus these days would go straight to an asylum... from my view he was a somewhat crazy man who had some views which are nearly impossible to follow but would be good if people did (love your enemy, turn the other cheek, etc...). And of course from the position of the authorities he was a dangerous rabble-rouser (which he certainly was) who threated the peace and so he had to be gotten rid of...

You sound like you would have been the first volunteer to execute Jesus, He was killed because he exposed the jewish leaders lies and hypocracies so they had their roman masters execute him to silence him before the people would see the truth.

His death was a ransom for mankind to free themselves from the devils control through sin. He died to prove a man could serve god without sining even under threat of being killed and prove Satan a liar.

All the books of the bible are valid , What is invalid are non biblical based beliefs that churches have kept for centuries, The Imortal soul and the trinity and so fourth are all Pagan things that have nothing to do with the bible

The few people who have truly followed jesus teachings have brought great things , Mahatma Ghandi studied all of his teaching and incorporated it into his pasifist nonviolent resistance doctrine which later would liberate india from british rule.

I think all men should ispire to follow Jesus and Ghandi.

I dont hate muslims , I just think Islam has some dark elements, Like killing unbelievers and crap.I wouldnt go out and attack muslims or anything their free to practice their beliefs.

The Cruisades was not the will of God, Jesus condemned violence and said we must hate violence. The Cruisades were imperialistic endeavers to conquere the middle east.

Saladin was a honorible man , I admired him since he was merciful and kind even to his enemies which is sort of what Jesus taught, Even though he did fight a war it was in self defense.Even though he was a muslim I think he was really more a true Christian like unlike the cruisaders.

A Black Falcon
You sound like you would have been the first volunteer to execute Jesus, He was killed because he exposed the jewish leaders lies and hypocracies so they had their roman masters execute him to silence him before the people would see the truth.

He was killed because he questioned the authority of the ruling elite. He and his followers obviously greatly disliked the ruling elite, and their actions did by effect do things to undermine their power... I didn't say that I would one side or the other, but that if the ruling groups (both Jewish and Roman) had done anything else they'd be condoning actions that would undermine their power... not smart for them. Of course they were also often brutal in their actions, especially the Romans, but that'd just be more reason for the Jewish leaders to do something... they wouldn't want the security situation to get to the point where the Romans could justify action!

Saladin was a honorible man , I admired him since he was merciful and kind even to his enemies which is sort of what Jesus taught, Even though he did fight a war it was in self defense.Even though he was a muslim I think he was really more a true Christian like unlike the cruisaders.

That well might be true...

Geno
I know the subject of this thread has long since changed, but...

I know the horror of viruses too. And hackers. Hackers suck ass. Though I seriously don't know why someone would want to hack my computer. Congratulations, you found pictures of my pets! Were you hoping for top secret government files? Well, you're out of luck. If you want something else on my computer, all you have to do is email me and I'll be more than happy to send it to you. Or do you just have no life and just live in your parents' basement at age 40 with nothing better to do than destroy other people's computers? In that case, try turning off the computer for once and getting a life.

Who am I talking to, you ask? No one in particular, I just needed to express my hatred of hackers, mail bombers, and virus makers. I've managed to save some of my most important files to disk, but I'll have to download Kazaa, RPG Maker 2000, Paint Shop Pro 7, and all my MP3s and movies all over again when I have my computer reformatted. Oh well, I didn't use most of them anyway. But as a matter of fact, my computer seems to be doing fine right now... maybe I won't have to reformat just yet.

Now, what's the current topic? The crucifiction of Jesus? Um... it was... bad... for him... but good for us. Yup.

That just about sums it up.

EdenMaster
I find it mildly hilarious that a thread started by Darunia, <i>an atheist</i>, about computer viruses has ended up a thread about religion.

Only at TendoCity :)

Geno
I think it started when ASM said something about Darunia offending him by insulting his spiritual beliefs. I'm not sure, I'd have to look back about a page.

Great Rumbler
Yeah, it was ASM that brought the topic of religion into this thread.

Laser Link
Sorry guys. I've been real busy all weekend and haven't been able to read or reply yet. I'll try to get back to you soon.

Darunia
On a serious note, why do people take it for fact that Jesus existed? Completely serioues here, and asking this without antagonism---why is it taken for fact, it seems that everyone believes in that.

Fittisize
That's already been discussed, in some other thread, I can't remember which.

Ryan
Because it's documented history. You can't be such an important historical figure and bring about the incredible change He did if He never existed. He is mentioned in history books, the same as Buddha and Mohammed.

Darunia
Because it's documented history.

The Bible isn't documented history. It's folklore and fables. On the other hand, Roman historical records which may coincide with the execution of Jesus...

alien space marine
Thats for a unbeliever , The oldest most provible person in the book of genesis is Joseph, The Egyptians kept records of everything except its embarasements,The kept records of a 7 years of prosperity and 7 year famine and they had storehouses for grain , The Hiroglyphs spoke of sorcessor who became Pharaohs head of agriculture who warned about the 7 year famine through a vision. Sounds alot like the Joseph story.

Geno
Even if Jesus wasn't the Son of God, He could have still been a normal human with a great amount of influence, much like Mohammed and Buddha as Weltall mentioned. I believe in Jesus for the same reason that I believe in Julius Caesar and other figures from before His time--because historic documents (and I don't just mean the Bible) claim that He existed, and I have no reason not to believe those documents anymore than I would disbelieve that Caesar existed.

A Black Falcon
On a serious note, why do people take it for fact that Jesus existed? Completely serioues here, and asking this without antagonism---why is it taken for fact, it seems that everyone believes in that.

Ahh... I've heard this one before. See, the issue comes up because pretty much all of our knowledge of Jesus comes from the writings of the New Testament and other related Gospels that were left out of that book... so it's POSSIBLE that Jesus didn't exist. I'd call it unlikely, though. When you get into disproving historical figures (and Jesus IS one -- the Bible may not be a straight history, but it has a lot of history in it!) you get into conspiracy theories and the like, and I don't usually like to go down that road... so I believe he existed. He was a visionary, a man with a dream about humanity that would be near-impossible to attain... yes, on the same level as Mohammed or the Buddha.



The Bible isn't documented history. It's folklore and fables. On the other hand, Roman historical records which may coincide with the execution of Jesus...

Folklore and fables? It's more than that. Oh, it's heavy on the religious teaching, but taking old stories to just be fables is dangerous and often wrong. Let us not forget that before the late 1800s most people thought Troy a legend and the Illiad a fable!

Now, they are usually not exact truth, and you must try to figure out what the truth was... but with enough investigation you often can come up with plausible theories for stories. While saying others were just made up, or something of the like.

Like the theory that explains the Great Flood... that's a great example...

alien space marine
King arthur is a fable that is common in europe especially england were it sopposedly originated. But some historians believe it may not be entirely false there may have been a Celtic warlord or King who ruled over the britains during the anglo saxion invasion as alot of the things in the story have celtic cultural trademarks especially the sword excalibre, They also believe that it could be a far older celtic King that served Rome and was made a govenor of Britainia. There is a place in britain called Camel and camel west which had remnants of a ancient fortress that sat on the hill top.

A Black Falcon
That's a good example. There is very little evidence that he definitely existed... it was written much later, only a few completely reliable references, etc... but still, I definitely think that there was an Arthur. He was a Celtic warlord or king, yes, fighting against the invading Saxons in the late 400s and 500s AD... he was successful for years, then there was a battle where he and his main opponent were killed (530s?). The legend went from there... and in future times he was somewhat transplanted -- see Mallory's Morte 'Artur (I've read it). That mythical King Arthur was Middle Ages, not Dark Ages...

The Great Flood gains legitimacy when you realize that it wasn't just the Hebrews that had a Great Flood. Many Near East peoples had one. That's why the theory that it was the Bosphorous breaking and the great expansion of the Black Sea that was the origin for that story... the whole world wasn't flooded, but to the people there it sure seemed like it! And they scattered bringing the story elsewhere...

Geno
I never thought about that, but that theory does have some merit... the idea that the Great Flood didn't cover the entire world as we know it, but the entire world as they knew it. The Bible was written by humans and is subject to contain errors of the sort, so it's possible that the Great Flood, if a true story, occured only in the known world.

Darunia
What I'm asking is: Are there physical, unbiased, non-religious accounts of Jesus in existence at all, anywhere?

Even if Jesus wasn't the Son of God, He could have still been a normal human with a great amount of influence

You people have to capitalize 'he' when you talk about Jesus too...?

lazyfatbum
Well, Darunia, you see; Some people do, while some people dont. The people who do, well, they do it as a sign of respect because they look up to God and Jesus.

And... Yes...

I am talking to you exactly as I would talk to a child........ Santa Clause isn't real!

And your mom likes black dick!

:weird:

OOOOOO SNAP!

Geno
No way... Santa isn't real?! *scratches Santa out from my list of things that exist, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Cupid, and Leprechauns listed right above him, also scribbled out*

alien space marine
Gnomes exists! look at Mini me.http://www.stagecentral.com/FamilyTradition/Gniville-the-gnome.jpg http://www.claireworld.com/Computer_Room/Austin_Mini_Me.jpg

Darunia
No way... Santa isn't real?! *scratches Santa out from my list of things that exist, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Cupid, and Leprechauns listed right above him, also scribbled out*

I could think to add a few more things to you list of non-existence.

A Black Falcon
I never thought about that, but that theory does have some merit... the idea that the Great Flood didn't cover the entire world as we know it, but the entire world as they knew it. The Bible was written by humans and is subject to contain errors of the sort, so it's possible that the Great Flood, if a true story, occured only in the known world.

I was surprised at first to hear that there might be truth behind the Great Flood, but then I heard that more than just the Hebrews had the story... for instance the Babylonians and other Sumerian cultures did. And then I heard the thing about the Black Sea. To expand: Once, the Bosphorus/Dardanelles were higher. Only some water got through and it went down a waterfall to land in the much lower Black Sea. But at some point, that block broke. The Meditteranean poured in and the land flooded... as you can imagine, quite the disaster to the people living there...

alien space marine
I heard that the meso american Mayan people had a flood legend as well , Whats interesting it spoke of evil giants that were sons of gods and violent humans that terrorized the world and the water and wind God Hurukan (were huricane name came from) flooded the hole world to punish mankind.Except his chosen ones.

Whats interesting is how did the same story with alot of identicle features end up across the world to the americas?

-iLluSiON-
It's called the Epic of Gilgamesh my friend. Read about it. The Hebrews adapted that as well as many other things during the Babylonian Exile.

It's all fables and stories passed down from generations and cultures.

close-minded religious people = :gay2:
close-minded athiest who mock religions = :gay2:

I think a lot of people have some growing up to do when it comes down to religion and the controversies related to it. :barf:
We should just accept it as part of our culture and human race... it is never going to change. The histories and cultures pertaining to a certain religion are what make it. It doesn't matter if one is 'right' or 'wrong'.

I'm starting a cult called Idontcareism. Any one want to join?

geoboy
Ooh! Ooooh! I'll join!

In all seriousness, my opinion of religion is very similar to illusion's. Some people take it WAY too seriously or treat its documents and teachings as undisputible fact. Religion isn't bad. It's a wonderful part of human history and culture, and if religion helps you find your path or meaning in life, then go for it! However, I'm not sure if it really is possible to believe in a religion and at the same time think its teachings are mere folklore. That's probably why I don't follow or believe in any religions...

alien space marine
Tell me how can you say you believe in somthing yet call it a fable?How can you be a christian if you think Jesus never existed?

As for the flood , You can say because the babylonians wrote it down and engraved the epic of gilgamesh and its the oldest written documents of the event, But you come to that conclusion by looking at this and that and say this happend this way and not that. But no one alive today was alive then,If you have faith in the bible you will believe that the flood happend and the event was passed down generation after generation from Noahs decendants who would later found civilizations like sumeria and babylon and of course overtime the story was changed as it passed from person to person oraly, it make sense since the first people to event writing were sumeria and Babylon they would be the first to write it down.But what is interesting is that the meso american Mayans and asians have the same stories on the other side of the world.I believe that god caused the event and the hebrew acount is the true one but thats a matter of faith, I cant physically prove it but thats why they call it faith.

Darunia
Faith or blind...well, in your personal case, ignorance? Here it is, 2004. We have people in space, plans to go to Mars, six billion people, the internet...science and technology advancing so fast, and people STILL praise invisible gods, fear invisible demons! If any of you Christians---ANY one of you, had been raised in a non-christian family, you'd be so different. How can you not see that it's all in how one is raised to determines one's religion. If you were born in Iraq, you'd be saying the same truths about Allah, and denouncing everyone else; if you were born in--well, the rest of it goes without saying. It's ridiculous, and I've had enough of it. It's time for action.

*Secedes from humanity*

*Forms new, better version: Perfectanity, version 1.0*

lazyfatbum
Ladies and Gentlemen, Darunia completely misses the point!

I love you, darunia. Dont ever change.

Dark Jaguar
Darunia, I was raised without religion and chose of my own free will to become a Christian. So did Weltall. Are you saying we are lying about our past? Do you SO believe that we just HAD to be brainwashed to believe what we believe that you would rather accuse us of lying than accept that maybe people can believe it due to their own free choice to look into it without a single other human being actually talking to them about it?

I will note that you listed a version number for your new group. Considering the name, is a version number needed? Perhaps you forgot what the word perfect means? :D

Now, I hope you don't take this as us forcing our beliefs down your throat. Currently, you are on the offensive and we are just defending. You are essentially showing a lot of ignorance of Christians and we are doing our best to tell you what we are ACTUALLY like.

lazyfatbum
Oh you are so definetly a woman.

Geno
Midgets and gnomes are two different things. But yes, I know that gnomes exist. They steal my underwear every morning around 3:30.

As for Darunia... yes, I realize that probably the main reason I'm a Christian is because I was raised that way and if I had been raised as an atheist I'd probably still be one. Could the same be said about you? If you had been raised in a Christian family (and for all I know, you could've been), don't you think you'd probably be a Christian too? I may've been born into a Christian family, but it was my own choice to stay a Christian this late in life, and I'd say I'm living a fairly good life because of it. I don't denounce anybody for having different religious views (including atheism) because everyone has their own reasons for the beliefs that they follow.

alien space marine
Faith or blind...well, in your personal case, ignorance? Here it is, 2004. We have people in space, plans to go to Mars, six billion people, the internet...science and technology advancing so fast, and people STILL praise invisible gods, fear invisible demons! If any of you Christians---ANY one of you, had been raised in a non-christian family, you'd be so different. How can you not see that it's all in how one is raised to determines one's religion. If you were born in Iraq, you'd be saying the same truths about Allah, and denouncing everyone else; if you were born in--well, the rest of it goes without saying. It's ridiculous, and I've had enough of it. It's time for action.

If you werent raised by intolerant parents you wouldnt be a devout ass hole.
It is you who is ignorant, There is people who are raised by achoholics and drug abusers uncaring parents like my Grandfather who beat his kids and beat my grand ma because he was always drunk if I had choice between that and parents who had moral standards as a christian I choose the christian.My father was raised by a athiest family but for some reason after his best freind died in a car accident he asked were do we go when we die, whats the point of life? So he studied bible since he was curious about it.My dad always said if I didnt believe in it I dont have to be part of the religion.So I am a christian out of choice.

Geno
Losing someone close to them is one of the main reasons some people convert. Who wants to accept that someone is gone forever, leaving nothing behind but a decaying corpse which will soon become one with the earth? Even if it is blind faith, at least it helps people cope and make it through the rest of their lives without having to sit around moping all day. Apparently, Darunia would have no problem accepting that a person ceases to exist when they die, but not a lot of people have that same strength.

Does this mean that I'm only a Christian because it makes me feel happier? No, I'm a Christian because I believe in several of its teachings. The Bible has its flaws, but it was written by men, and men are flawed creatures. I don't think God will persecute someone for choosing "the wrong religion" but will take in any who accept him. Again, I'm not denouncing anyone who chooses not to believe, this is just what I believe. From my experiences, I can't help but feel that there's a supernatural force working with me all the time. It's not just something that I say I believe because it was taught to me as a child; it's become a part of me. Even if I'm wrong, I feel that I have nothing to lose from this "blind" faith.

EdenMaster
It's ridiculous, and I've had enough of it. It's time for action.

*imagines Darunia standing outside of a church, kicking it repeatedly, shouting French insults*

:D

alien space marine
starts ringing a church bell to drown out Darunia's shouts.

Great Rumbler
What's so great about being an athiest anyway?

-iLluSiON-
I can say something about Darunia's ex girlfriend... but I'd rather not.

In fact, it would make this thread and his opinion irrelevant.

Great Rumbler
I can say something about Darunia's ex girlfriend... but I'd rather not.

In fact, it would make this thread and his opinion irrelevant.

:erm:

Fittisize
Say it.

EdenMaster
Darunia...you're far too concerned with what you see that you cannot allow yourself to accept something you can't see or prove. There are still many things science has yet to explain, yet are certainly real. For example, Spontaneous Human Combustion, it baffles scientists worldwide why it happens. They have theories of course, but no one can say for certain why it happens. But it happens.

I don't need an explanation to believe what I believe. The thought that when I die I simply cease to be is a very depressing prospect. Even if that might be the case when my time is up (which I don't believe it is), it's more comforting to think that there is eternal heaven waiting for me. Life would seem awfully futile and pointless if there is nothing to look forward to when it's over. People seek religion for comfort, for guidance, even for a reason to live. Whether or not we have physical proof is irrelevant, because we don't need it.

Long story short: I don't need a speck of evidence to believe what I believe, and all the arguments in the world won't change my mind. That may sound foolish to you, but hey, to each his own.

Ryan
Humans, pretentious little creatures we are, are often convinced we know it all. Yet, we know some about our world, little about what's outside of it, and next to nothing about the universe it's all in. There are things out there that we have never seen, and probably could never imagine possible. We'll keep learning new things, and each time we do, people shout "NOW we know everything!"

But we don't. We are so far away from proving and quantifying everything that it isn't worth thinking about. There are many things humanity will never solve or prove, things that we will never find tangible physical evidence of. That doesn't mean at all that these things do not exist.

You call us ignorant, Darunia, because some of us do not believe that mankind is the highest form of existence. Yet, you pigeonhole yourself by refusing to open your mind. I will not say evolution is a sham, and I will not say that the universe was created in seven calendar days six thousand years ago. But I still believe that there is too much order to things for it all to be born out of random chaos. I believe a higher being, at the very least, had a hand in it.

Now you believe the exact opposite. That's okay with me, if you want to do so. But you could try to be tolerant of other people's beliefs. I wouldn't stand here and damn you to hell for being a heathen, if God wants to do that, it's His decision, not mine. I believe that you are wrong, but I wouldn't begin to tell you that you're an idiot or what not because you disagree with me. I can accept you for your beliefs. I think you ought to show the same consideration to us, because you seem to go out of your way to insult Christians every chance you get, and it's incredibly annoying.

Laser Link
Sorry guys, it's been a crazy week.

Obi, I didn't take any offense to anything you said. Don't worry about it. About Morocco: It's really not a big deal to be American there. Especially in Agadir, where I will be going, which is a huge tourist spot and very modern. Morocco as a whole is one of the most Western of Muslim countries, and in fact the previous king became a Christian and for a time allowed the people to have Bibles. But there was such a backlash from the other leaders of Muslim countries that he unfortunately backed down, and it is once again illegal to posess a Bible. That is the case in every Muslim county I have heard of, which intrigues me, since a lot of the research I've done lately says that Muslims accept the Bible as a word from God. But anyway, we are not going in on our own just for kicks- this is a very well planned and organized thing. We'll be working with residents and doing a lot of practical work, like helping to teach English in Universities. It's not as extreme as Iraq or Thailand, where some other groups from my church are going this summer.

Lazy, someday it would be good to talk about that and find out more about what you are saying. I've honestly never heard about that from anyone, and I don't live in a little Christian bubble (anymore). :) History, science, heck, even English professors at my school like to go out of their way to teach us the "truth" about the Bible and Jesus, and I've heard some pretty crazy stories! They usually just end up contradicting themselves anyway, but I've never heard about what you mentioned. So I would like to find out more someday. But I think you don't want to hash that out right now, and I don't either. It would be a much better thing to have a personal conversation about, because if nothing else I want to learn about what you guys think and how you view the world. I have heard all sorts of stuff, but never from people who I know and consider friends. Most of the friends I've had are Christians who live a lot like I do, becaus that's who I spend the most time with. I have some friends from school, but most of the time we are all too busy to spend time together outside of class and group projects. Programmers and engineers in general are not the most outgoing people (myself included), so I don't know anybody well enough to really talk with them. But we've been talking for something like almost 5 years, and I feel like you guys are all pretty cool people who I would be good friends with if I ever had the chance. And I know you guys could be honest with me and I could be honest with you without anybody getting pissed off or offended or anything like that. :) So someday.

Laser Link
Ah Darunia. I just want to mention that while it is true that Christianity is sort of the default religion in the US and a lot of Western countries, we can all agree that it is not places like Africa or Asia, right? But that is in fact where Christianity is spreading like crazy. I mentioned this before, but the largest church in the world for many years was in South Korea. I wasn't sure on how large exactly, but I just read that Yoida Full Gospel Church in Seoul had 750,000 in 1994.Now the largest churches now are in Africa. I've heard as much as millions of people coming to meetings. It's hard to know the exact numbers because they don't exactly do things the same as here. I don't think anyone can (or possibly could) keep track of how many people come, but it is a heapload. God is doing amazing things in these places.

Since 2000, 2/3 of Christians live outside of North America and Western Europe. It is estimated that 200 million Christians are currently being persecuted for their faith, which is obviously not happening here in the US. I found the specific details of that <a href="http://www.cephasministry.com/world_church_how_god_saved.html">here</a>, but I have heard this many times over from so many people. I just didn't remember specific numbers. So I think that effectively disproves your stance that people only believe in Jesus because they were raised that way. You can believe what you want, but now you need to find something new to complain about. :)

Geno
Release Animaniacs on DVD or else!

Welcome to the campaign. :D

A Black Falcon
It's called the Epic of Gilgamesh my friend. Read about it. The Hebrews adapted that as well as many other things during the Babylonian Exile.

It's all fables and stories passed down from generations and cultures.

I've read it, actually... :) Well, part of it.


In all seriousness, my opinion of religion is very similar to illusion's. Some people take it WAY too seriously or treat its documents and teachings as undisputible fact. Religion isn't bad. It's a wonderful part of human history and culture, and if religion helps you find your path or meaning in life, then go for it! However, I'm not sure if it really is possible to believe in a religion and at the same time think its teachings are mere folklore. That's probably why I don't follow or believe in any religions...

Yeah, it could be a problem... I also can't see how one folklore is any more "right" than any others. Christianity is just dominant, not intrinsically more "right" than the previous polytheistic beliefs... same for their religious texts, I think. Mixtures of truth and fiction, as with all legends and stories meant to inflate the greatness of their subjects...

As for the flood , You can say because the babylonians wrote it down and engraved the epic of gilgamesh and its the oldest written documents of the event, But you come to that conclusion by looking at this and that and say this happend this way and not that. But no one alive today was alive then,If you have faith in the bible you will believe that the flood happend and the event was passed down generation after generation from Noahs decendants who would later found civilizations like sumeria and babylon and of course overtime the story was changed as it passed from person to person oraly, it make sense since the first people to event writing were sumeria and Babylon they would be the first to write it down.But what is interesting is that the meso american Mayans and asians have the same stories on the other side of the world.I believe that god caused the event and the hebrew acount is the true one but thats a matter of faith, I cant physically prove it but thats why they call it faith.

Look, I'll begin to listen to you when you show that nearly every culture has a flood myth. But the Biblical one, as they said, is the Babylonian one, really. That one just got spread all around that region. Two flood stories does not a truth make. :)

Mayan flood story? I don't know anything about it so I can't comment.

Faith or blind...well, in your personal case, ignorance? Here it is, 2004. We have people in space, plans to go to Mars, six billion people, the internet...science and technology advancing so fast, and people STILL praise invisible gods, fear invisible demons! If any of you Christians---ANY one of you, had been raised in a non-christian family, you'd be so different. How can you not see that it's all in how one is raised to determines one's religion. If you were born in Iraq, you'd be saying the same truths about Allah, and denouncing everyone else; if you were born in--well, the rest of it goes without saying. It's ridiculous, and I've had enough of it. It's time for action.

I've wondered about this before, and I've written some lengthy posts about the subject before... I don't want (or have the time) to do that again now, however.

But I think that for prehistoric man "gods" were easily their best explanation for the question "Why?". Somehow that got burned into our culture and we can't let it go...

Oh, and the Communists tried to destroy religion. It didn't work. The problem of course was that the people already believed so they would not be shaken... you'd have to have people grow up with no religion at all around, with no concept of "gods" except as quaint historical myths of previous cultures (if that), for it to have any chance at all of working.

'Action' won't go anywhere, in short.



As for Darunia... yes, I realize that probably the main reason I'm a Christian is because I was raised that way and if I had been raised as an atheist I'd probably still be one. Could the same be said about you? If you had been raised in a Christian family (and for all I know, you could've been), don't you think you'd probably be a Christian too? I may've been born into a Christian family, but it was my own choice to stay a Christian this late in life, and I'd say I'm living a fairly good life because of it. I don't denounce anybody for having different religious views (including atheism) because everyone has their own reasons for the beliefs that they follow.

My parents... hmm, I don't know, actually. They might believe that there's some kind of spiritual force or something, I don't know... and I did grow up going to church, but it was Unitarian Universalism, if anyone here knows what that means. Just about the most liberal serious religious denomination around...

Oh, but it's not quite "believe anything you want". The Principles and Purposes (which I don't know, to be honest... you don't have to memorize them...) provide limitations... not saying what you must believe, but things like how being bad isn't good...

Ah Darunia. I just want to mention that while it is true that Christianity is sort of the default religion in the US and a lot of Western countries, we can all agree that it is not places like Africa or Asia, right? But that is in fact where Christianity is spreading like crazy. I mentioned this before, but the largest church in the world for many years was in South Korea. I wasn't sure on how large exactly, but I just read that Yoida Full Gospel Church in Seoul had 750,000 in 1994.Now the largest churches now are in Africa. I've heard as much as millions of people coming to meetings. It's hard to know the exact numbers because they don't exactly do things the same as here. I don't think anyone can (or possibly could) keep track of how many people come, but it is a heapload. God is doing amazing things in these places.

Since 2000, 2/3 of Christians live outside of North America and Western Europe. It is estimated that 200 million Christians are currently being persecuted for their faith, which is obviously not happening here in the US. I found the specific details of that here, but I have heard this many times over from so many people. I just didn't remember specific numbers. So I think that effectively disproves your stance that people only believe in Jesus because they were raised that way. You can believe what you want, but now you need to find something new to complain about.

You're partially right (and others who said it wasn't just learned from parents). It's not just that, obviously. Who knows why, maybe because of how long we believed that it MUST BE (for lack of any alternative), or because we wish there WAS something greater than ourselves guiding the universe, religion does have a tendency to stick around and grow and make people believers...

Why do people change from one religion to another? Who knows. The faith of believers turns them? They like how it differs from their current one? Their new religion is more popular now (this is a MAJOR factor, especially in the past -- witness how many nations convert (to whatever religion is gaining) so quickly after their kings did...)

Obviously, in my eyes the whole idea of "converting the unbelievers" is incredibly stupid. Unless they're worshipping death gods or something evil like that... but no one does that anymore, so we're pretty safe. ... well not really, since as long as there are different religions there will surely be conflict between them, but safer than we used to be...

The problem, of course, is as you say (or imply): My Religion Is Better Than Yours. Oh, you come up with "reasons", but overall, most any major modern religion must have some benefits to have lasted in relevance in modern times! But don't bother to reply to that, I'm sure that people like you would never see my point. What, do you also believe that anyone who dies not a Christian will burn in hell forever? :rolleyes:

Darunia...you're far too concerned with what you see that you cannot allow yourself to accept something you can't see or prove. There are still many things science has yet to explain, yet are certainly real. For example, Spontaneous Human Combustion, it baffles scientists worldwide why it happens. They have theories of course, but no one can say for certain why it happens. But it happens.

I don't need an explanation to believe what I believe. The thought that when I die I simply cease to be is a very depressing prospect. Even if that might be the case when my time is up (which I don't believe it is), it's more comforting to think that there is eternal heaven waiting for me. Life would seem awfully futile and pointless if there is nothing to look forward to when it's over. People seek religion for comfort, for guidance, even for a reason to live. Whether or not we have physical proof is irrelevant, because we don't need it.

Long story short: I don't need a speck of evidence to believe what I believe, and all the arguments in the world won't change my mind. That may sound foolish to you, but hey, to each his own.

Ah, now we reach the heart of why people believe. The alternative is both scary and depressing. That, I think, is one of the main reasons... that and that impulse most people seem to have that says that they want there to me something greater than themselves out there, that they don't want to handle it all alone (oh sure it's often stated as 'it couldn't have happened this way all alone', but I'd say that that's what it really is...)... now, am I insulting people for following those lines of thought? Given how universal religion is in all human cultures, not really. By this point in history it's obviously normal, and as I've said in length before, very hard to do anything about despite the fact that so much has been debunked because of the fact that, at the center of most all religions, is the part that says 'you must take things on faith'...



Obi, I didn't take any offense to anything you said. Don't worry about it. About Morocco: It's really not a big deal to be American there. Especially in Agadir, where I will be going, which is a huge tourist spot and very modern. Morocco as a whole is one of the most Western of Muslim countries, and in fact the previous king became a Christian and for a time allowed the people to have Bibles. But there was such a backlash from the other leaders of Muslim countries that he unfortunately backed down, and it is once again illegal to posess a Bible. That is the case in every Muslim county I have heard of, which intrigues me, since a lot of the research I've done lately says that Muslims accept the Bible as a word from God. But anyway, we are not going in on our own just for kicks- this is a very well planned and organized thing. We'll be working with residents and doing a lot of practical work, like helping to teach English in Universities. It's not as extreme as Iraq or Thailand, where some other groups from my church are going this summer.

... So do the Gideons have to put Korans in the hotels?

Seriously, I can't remember if there were bibles in the hotels in Europe... last summer was too long ago to remember details like that... :D

But I don't think I've been in a hotel in the US without one. Wait, maybe once... but not much.

LL: How about my posts? That long one (with quotes) in particular...

Great Rumbler
Double-poster!!

A Black Falcon
Bwahaha! All evidence is gone!

Darunia
[asm]If you werent raised by intolerant parents you wouldnt be a devout ass hole.

Who are you to claim to know my parents!? My mother is the nicest, most understanding, soft-hearted woman in the world, you fucking cocksucker! You just can't stand to accept that an atheist was brought into this world without his parents being Nazis or Bolsheviks!

Note below how our dear friend ASM calls me ignorant, and yet makes 16 spelling/grammatical errors in this one paragraph.

It is you who is you who are ignorant,There is there arepeople who are raised by achoholics alcoholics and drug abusers missing comma or semi-colon uncaring parents like my Grandfather improper capitalization who beat his kids and beat my grand ma spelling error because he was always drunk punctuation here if I had choice between that and parents who had moral standards as a christian inconsistency with your subject; "parents" would be "a christian" I choose the christian. what he's claimig is that all non-Christians are drunkards who bear their families. My father was raised by a athiest "an atheist" family but for some reason after his best freind sp died in a car accident he asked were where do we go when we die, whats "what's" the point of life? So he studied bible missing definitive article since he was curious about it. My dad always said if I didnt apostrophe believe in it I dont missing apostrophe have to be part of the religion. So I am a christian capitalize proper religions and ethnicities out of choice.

I'm ignorant for calling you wrong; but you lampoon all non-Christians as wife-beatin' drunks! :shake:

[geno]Apparently, Darunia would have no problem accepting that a person ceases to exist when they die, but not a lot of people have that same strength.

Where does this come from? Atheists, who don't believe in afterlives but rather eternal oblivion, are, according to you, happy with dying? Whereas religious people, who believe in perpetual happiness after death, fear it? What's wrong with you! People who actually know and understand death fear it, not those who welcome it as the gateway to bliss! I fear death ten fold more than you, I promise you that!

[gr]What's so great about being an athiest anyway?

Nothing--nothing at all, it's stark, comparatively sad, and miserable. Thusly unpopular. But doing things because they're pleasant, if not true, is no reason to be done.

[em]The thought that when I die I simply cease to be is a very depressing prospect. Even if that might be the case when my time is up (which I don't believe it is), it's more comforting to think that there is eternal heaven waiting for me.

I quite agree; it's the worst possible fate that one can imagine; eternal oblivion, yet it awaits us all. I'd love to believe in eternal salvation. Unfortunately, one cannot just choose to believe in something.

Life would seem awfully futile and pointless if there is nothing to look forward to when it's over. People seek religion for comfort, for guidance, even for a reason to live. Whether or not we have physical proof is irrelevant, because we don't need it.

You're quite right again; life IS indeed pointless. Produce; spread your seed, and then die. Do you want to know why we have no point? Because we weren't designed; we evolved from the simplest organic compounds, without direction.

[weltall]You call us ignorant, Darunia, because some of us do not believe that mankind is the highest form of existence.

Putting words in my mouth, Weltall. As far as we know, we are the highest intelligence; but the universe is unexplored, there could be highly developed aliens out there.

Yet, you pigeonhole yourself by refusing to open your mind. I will not say evolution is a sham, and I will not say that the universe was created in seven calendar days six thousand years ago. But I still believe that there is too much order to things for it all to be born out of random chaos. I believe a higher being, at the very least, had a hand in it.

*Shrugs*

Undertow
This thread is http://www.sighost.us/members/jay803/lollerskates.gif

Long winded arguements about nothing. Rawk on!

Great Rumbler
Nothing--nothing at all, it's stark, comparatively sad, and miserable.

I think I'll stick to my belief that there's something better to look forward to.

alien space marine
I've wondered about this before, and I've written some lengthy posts about the subject before... I don't want (or have the time) to do that again now, however.

But I think that for prehistoric man "gods" were easily their best explanation for the question "Why?". Somehow that got burned into our culture and we can't let it go...

Oh, and the Communists tried to destroy religion. It didn't work. The problem of course was that the people already believed so they would not be shaken... you'd have to have people grow up with no religion at all around, with no concept of "gods" except as quaint historical myths of previous cultures (if that), for it to have any chance at all of working.

'Action' won't go anywhere, in short.


Soviet Russia quest to destroy religion was tyranical , They would grab hole families put them at gun point and say sign this papper stating that you dont believe in god and swear loyalty to the mother land, If they didnt want to give up their faith, They would take away their children and they would be orphaned and never see their parents again, The parents would be put away to siberia and they would be forced to work in a labour camp and have all their possesions ,families and freinds striped from them .Some would be even tortured to extract information. I studied all about this , Ive read and watched documentory films and books all about that. Some of the families never got to see each other untill 30 years after being seperated.

The Russian orthodox church was hard and trickier to break down, But those genius athiest had a wonderful idea , Lets replace christian orthodox traditions with communist party figures and engage in modern day Emperor worship, They had Lenin mummified and used him as the new Religion.So infact they tried to replace God with a Man.Russia became another example at how a dream of utopia can be twisted into horrible things.

The soviet union is history,Acording to bible chronology it was the king of the North after the Nazi reich as said in the book of Daneil (of course you have no idea what I am talking about :( )

Who are you to claim to know my parents!? My mother is the nicest, most understanding, soft-hearted woman in the world, you fucking cocksucker! You just can't stand to accept that an atheist was brought into this world without his parents being Nazis or Bolsheviks!

Note below how our dear friend ASM calls me ignorant, and yet makes 16 spelling/grammatical errors in this one paragraph.


I dont know your mother maybe she is a wonderful lady ,But why do you say my parents because they were religous brainwashed me from childhood into being a backward Superstitious dope?

I know that some people have put their opinions on you and maybe I have myself and for that I apologize. But you bash other peoples beliefs sadistically and treat us like were idiot Morons , You dont give a good impression of your upbringing, But I will assume its not your upbringing and its all yourself .

the Nazi and commie thing was a joke which started as a post april fools thing and I am sorry you were traumatized by it, so I got rid of it. :D

I'm ignorant for calling you wrong; but you lampoon all non-Christians as wife-beatin' drunks!
No I meant that my caring god fearing parents were better then what some people have.I never meant that anyone who waisnt was a wife beater.My grand father was a opinionated bitter old man who hurt the people around him and eventually paid in the last few years of his life spent in total loneliness counting his whealth,He always was defensive and eccentric fearing everyone wanted his money.If he had been a spiritual man I think he would have had a happier life.

Nothing--nothing at all, it's stark, comparatively sad, and miserable. Thusly unpopular. But doing things because they're pleasant, if not true, is no reason to be done.

Darunia I may not be the best person to say this , But you need to be more positive , If you think religion is non sense, Then why not study Confucism and other philosophies that dont have a god per say so you can get some guidance and purpose to your life.So you dont have to live in the cold dark closet and miss out.

Darunia
Darunia I may not be the best person to say this , But you need to be more positive , If you think religion is non sense, Then why not study Confucism and other philosophies that dont have a god per say so you can get some guidance and purpose to your life.So you dont have to live in the cold dark closet and miss out.

I have some purpose and guidance in my life. I seek to be rich and happy, and to have children so that a part of me will live, well, for at least as long as humanity does. I don't need religion to ease the misery of life, I take it as best I can.

and treat us like were idiot Morons ,.

Only an "idiot Moron" would say "idiot Moron."

Great Rumbler
Only an "idiot Moron" would say "idiot Moron."

Well, only an "idiot moron" would call someone an "idiot moron" for saying "idiot moron"!

Dark Jaguar
Just wanted to point out there is no REAL phenomenon of spontaneous combustion. The human body IS capable of burning to dust, including the bones, without charring much except maybe blackening a nearby TV screen. It's the wic effect. Take a large pig (which has a similar fat ratio to humans... take that as you will...) and set it ablaze. It'll take a while to get it started, but eventually it'll start a slow gradual burn. It won't be enough to catch most surrounding things on fire, but it'll torch the pig and even turn the bones to dust. All that will be left are the parts that are too low in fat to catch. In humans, those are the hands and feet, just like most cases tend to have left. Essentially, a few experiments like this one have shown a very easy explanation for it, except the time scale. It takes about 5 hours or so to complete. However, most cases really offer no proof of it being instant. No one's around during these things (because, after all, if someone catches fire like this, and someone else IS around, they will PUT THE PERSON OUT). How does the person not fight back if it takes a while? Generally, they aren't in a condition to do so. They have either seized up in cardiac arrest or something else has them medically unable to do anything. A stray cig or fallen candle is all that's needed after that. All these things make it a rare occurance, but not so rare as to make it completely improbable. These cases are rare anyway. Consider this, if it really was a concern, at least one of the time it happened someone would have seen it. The only other logical explanation is an evil wizard is teleporting around zapping people for fun.

A Black Falcon
Putting words in my mouth, Weltall. As far as we know, we are the highest intelligence; but the universe is unexplored, there could be highly developed aliens out there.


I would say it is likely, actually. Look at the animals on the Earth! Oh, sure, none of them come close to us in intelligence... but the most intelligent apes are as smart as very young children. That should say that we aren't necessarially the smartest possible creatures in the universe...

But God is a different issue. Weltall doesn't just want something smarter than us, he wants it to have influence on us as well... something smarter but far away and unconnected to us doesn't solve the "problem".

It doesn't answer that (self-centered, and, IMO, not too logical) point religious people seem to have about how how everything couldn't have gotten to how it is without aid... how the universe it ordered and created just right for us, or something like that. That, to me, sounds just like in the Middle Ages when they said how we were in the center of the universe! Clearly because we exist we are perfect, the epitome of development...

Seriously, how self-centered can you get? Okay, so the universe is governed by rules that allow life. Why? No one knows, I'll give you that much. But taking that farther, to saying that somehow some greater being not only created the universe but that we are so special that something HAS to have helped us along... sheer ego. Nothing more.

Nothing--nothing at all, it's stark, comparatively sad, and miserable. Thusly unpopular. But doing things because they're pleasant, if not true, is no reason to be done.

As I have said many times.

You're quite right again; life IS indeed pointless. Produce; spread your seed, and then die. Do you want to know why we have no point? Because we weren't designed; we evolved from the simplest organic compounds, without direction.


Most people just would not be able to cope if they believed that there is no greater purpose, I think... it is a depressing thought, for sure, but as you say... deluding yourself for the purpose of happiness... I don't know. I don't like it. Religious people do, obviously, but I'd rather stay in the real world.

Is it harmful (to believe)? If you keep it to yourself, no, not really. As I've said, there are definite benefits... the problem is that that's impossible, it seems. Belief breeds unthinking, and unthinking breeds hatred of other beliefs... a cycle that leads to endless religious conflict... and nice helpful people showing up on your doorstep every so often with the good news that you can be saved if you join now! :)

Soviet Russia quest to destroy religion was tyranical , They would grab hole families put them at gun point and say sign this papper stating that you dont believe in god and swear loyalty to the mother land, If they didnt want to give up their faith, They would take away their children and they would be orphaned and never see their parents again, The parents would be put away to siberia and they would be forced to work in a labour camp and have all their possesions ,families and freinds striped from them .Some would be even tortured to extract information. I studied all about this , Ive read and watched documentory films and books all about that. Some of the families never got to see each other untill 30 years after being seperated.

The Russian orthodox church was hard and trickier to break down, But those genius athiest had a wonderful idea , Lets replace christian orthodox traditions with communist party figures and engage in modern day Emperor worship, They had Lenin mummified and used him as the new Religion.So infact they tried to replace God with a Man.Russia became another example at how a dream of utopia can be twisted into horrible things.

The soviet union is history,Acording to bible chronology it was the king of the North after the Nazi reich as said in the book of Daneil (of course you have no idea what I am talking about )


The Soviet regime was tyrannical in every way. It was just a new dictatorship from a renamed Czar... same thing really, just new names. Oh, and even MORE killing their own people... the Soviets killed tens of millions of people inside its own borders! So it shouldn't exactly be surprising that they used force to try to stop religion... or that that approach didn't work.

The Nazis were probably more successful at subverting religion, I think. They didn't try to get rid of it but tried to change it for their own ends... and seemed to do pretty well at getting people to believe.

Darunia
Here, here.

-iLluSiON-
[asm]If you werent raised by intolerant parents you wouldnt be a devout ass hole.

Who are you to claim to know my parents!? My mother is the nicest, most understanding, soft-hearted woman in the world, you fucking cocksucker! You just can't stand to accept that an atheist was brought into this world without his parents being Nazis or Bolsheviks!


What?! Your mom claims that I'm a drugdealer because I wore a black shirt and have long hair! She made that assumption without even knowing me? What's that say, huh? HUH? HUH!?

lazyfatbum
HUH!?!

...yeah... :rofl:

Fittisize
Originally Posted by Darunia
[asm]If you werent raised by intolerant parents you wouldnt be a devout ass hole.

Who are you to claim to know my parents!? My mother is the nicest, most understanding, soft-hearted woman in the world, you fucking cocksucker! You just can't stand to accept that an atheist was brought into this world without his parents being Nazis or Bolsheviks!
I find it hard to accept that a Nazi was brought into this world without his parents being one.

Darunia
Fittsize; two points:

1.) To suggest that no nazi could be wrought unto this world without his parents being nazis is kindergarten-level stupidity. Hitler's parents weren't nazis. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

2.) You had better not be calling me or my parents nazis, Fittisize. I'm not fucking around with you. I hope I misinterpreted what you wrote.

A Black Falcon
1.) To suggest that no nazi could be wrought unto this world without his parents being nazis is kindergarten-level stupidity. Hitler's parents weren't nazis. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?


The egg, as we now know. :)

But Darunia, it is true that it's more common for people to hold beliefs because their parents did... not always, sure, but more common.

Now I don't know about 'Nazi', but you're certainly racist...

lazyfatbum
I think Hitler's parents were divorced or seperated.

Children are sponges and it's not just the parents that help form their minds. Kids who bring a gun to school usually bring their parent's gun, this is true. But it's not because dad brought his gun to work and killed people. It's because they have no idea how to cope. If people are making your life miserable, kill them, problem solved. Complete lack of understanding. So it's what the parents didn't teach their kids that becomes the problem. All of the mass murderers in history had middle-class lifestyles growing up and hard working parents... that usually ignored their kids. Columbine is a good example of this. The more you put in to the child, the more that child will be as an adult; lower-class parents who dont work very hard and show lack of moral fiber will usually raise a child who is pretty akin to that lifestyle but statistically, lower-class families usually have a higher bonding factor and a closer family in general. If the kid feels loved, there's no problem.

Ryan
Maybe not Nazis in name, as they obviously did not exist. But Nazi thinking has been around forever. Hitler gave it an eternal name and refined it into something truly terrifying, but he didn't invent the concept, not by a country mile.

Geno
I didn't mean that religious people fear death more than atheists. I meant that some people aren't as willing to accept the idea that there's nothing but eternal oblivion after death. Since we're all going to die, we should make the best of life and not worry heavily about death, and the idea that death is not the end keeps some people from falling into despair and thinking that everything they work for in life will be wasted.

No matter what path each of us chooses though, we should all look forward to more of our lives, not to death.

Fittisize
Fittsize; two points:

1.) To suggest that no nazi could be wrought unto this world without his parents being nazis is kindergarten-level stupidity. Hitler's parents weren't nazis. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

2.) You had better not be calling me or my parents nazis, Fittisize. I'm not fucking around with you. I hope I misinterpreted what you wrote.

1-Allow me to restate: I find it hard to believe that a Nazi in this day and age could be brought into this world without his parents being one.

2-Seeing as how your italics really scared me, Adolf, I'll quote my original message: I find it hard to accept that a Nazi was brought into this world without his parents being one.
Catch the words in bold? For the most part, you did misinterpret what I wrote. Your parents aren't Nazis but you are. You're about as much of a Nazi as nickdaddyg. :rolleyes: Cool down, you overreacting, um, I dunno, adjectives escape me. What's wrong with being a Nazi, anyways?? You get to be German, rule a whole country, your boss may be subpar however, but you get to fight lots of wars. You love wars!

Darunia
1.) I don't particularly like Germans as far as that goes.

2.) I Downright hate Nazis.

3.) I love Israel, and root for them in all of their accomplishments.

4.) I am pro-France (Germany's rival).

5.) I am not truly a racist, I merely enjoy being liberal with how I speak. I do resent Mexicans, Portuguese people, Spaniards---for invading our country, and putting their languages on my ATMs and my stereo instructions. I dislike the Japanese for their atrocities in WWII. The same with the Germans. I would not say that I hate either of the nationalities as they are today. I play wargames online, and on the computer; and enjoy a Napoleonic-war-mongering flare when I post here, but I am staunchly against anything that would get anyone killed.

If I'm a fucking Nazi, you shitworm, you're a cocksucking Charles Manson fan. You outrage me more than OB1 did over his Star Wars debates, or LazyFatFuck did four years ago when I first came to Tendo City. We have differing opinions on politics and religion, so you call me a Nazi. How the fuck dare you call me that. You've never met me in real life, and you never will. I hate Nazis, and my grandfather killed the fucking bastards in the war. I neither support Nazis nor their beliefs, any of them. I have brown hair and brown eyes. I am not in any way German, nor even Scandinavian in ancestry. I hate Schroeder. Hitler was the criminal of the century, and we should've more rigorously persecuted everyone who war a gray uniform between 1939 and 1945.

If you have ANY dignity, I want an apology from you, Fittisize.

Fittisize
1.) What the hell? Did you not notice the : :rolleyes:? SARCASM, YOU STUPID GERMAN SOCIALIST FUCK.

2.)Apology? I got something better: I'll give you a cyber tea-bagging, and you can realize how much of an idiot you are being.

3.)*places nuts on Darunia's chin*

4.) Idiot.

EdenMaster
I am not truly a racist...I do resent Mexicans, Portuguese people, Spaniards...I dislike the Japanese...the same with the Germans.

You've contradicted yourself Darunia. Saying you hate certain peoples such as the ones you mentioned is indeed a racist comment. I don't blame you and I respect your reasoning behind your dislake of the Japanese and Germans, but don't you think you should leave the past in the past?

I'll admit I'm not crazy about getting instruction manuals with 100 pages with 5 in English, but that's part of what made the USA what it is today: The greatest nation on Earth.

Fittisize
The greatest melting pot on Earth.

Ryan
Wait a second. I agree with him on the illegal hispanics issue. It is a huge problem in America, and people do resent them with good reason: These people come into America, reap many benefits from the government, in some states getting free healthcare and education that most citizens can't get, but pay no taxes in return. They are moochers, they are ticks sucking out the hard earned money you and I make. If that isn't bad enough, the fact that we're becoming LESS of a melting pot is. If these people come to America, they should adapt OUR language. Instead, people are increasingly being forced to become bilingual, because these criminals won't even bother learning the language. Us, the people who are legal citizens and taxpayers, have to adapt to their needs. That is wrong, on many levels. The liberals of America tell us that we should provide for these people, and in what is probably the one policy I dislike most from the president, Bush essentially opens the floodgates for them. We need to start solving this problem. Either start getting them documented, or start cutting off every single bit of aid and start making them not want to come here illegally. It's too late to start sending them back, the least we could do is to do whatever it takes to keep them from coming still.

Is that racism? I don't think so. It's a Hispanic problem, this is a fact and it is not racism to state it. We don't have nearly so large an immigration problem with any other ethnic group.

Undertow
1.) What the hell? Did you not notice the : :rolleyes:? SARCASM, YOU STUPID GERMAN SOCIALIST FUCK.


I think the word you're looking for is "fascist".

Great Rumbler
It is a huge problem in America, and people do resent them with good reason: These people come into America, reap many benefits from the government, in some states getting free healthcare and education that most citizens can't get, but pay no taxes in return. They are moochers, they are ticks sucking out the hard earned money you and I make. If that isn't bad enough, the fact that we're becoming LESS of a melting pot is. If these people come to America, they should adapt OUR language. Instead, people are increasingly being forced to become bilingual, because these criminals won't even bother learning the language. Us, the people who are legal citizens and taxpayers, have to adapt to their needs. That is wrong, on many levels. The liberals of America tell us that we should provide for these people, and in what is probably the one policy I dislike most from the president, Bush essentially opens the floodgates for them. We need to start solving this problem. Either start getting them documented, or start cutting off every single bit of aid and start making them not want to come here illegally. It's too late to start sending them back, the least we could do is to do whatever it takes to keep them from coming still.

I've got nothing against people from Mexico immigrating here legally, but when they start crossing the border in the middle of the night, illegally, by the thousands then there starts to be a problem.

Fittisize
I have no problem with Mexicans coming to America.

Instead, people are increasingly being forced to become bilingual, because these criminals won't even bother learning the language.

THE language? There's more than one language on this Earth. Learn to speak two languages, adapt, become a better citizen as a result. You might even meet some new Hispanic friends if you learn to speak Spanish.

Ryan
I have no problem with Mexicans coming to America.



THE language? There's more than one language on this Earth. Learn to speak two languages, adapt, become a better citizen as a result. You might even meet some new Hispanic friends if you learn to speak Spanish.
Yes, THE language. As in, the one most LEGAL Americans speak.

Anyway, I believe the immigrants should learn our language, not the other way around. I can learn another language for fun or for whatever, but I shouldn't be forced to do so to communicate with people within my own country.

-iLluSiON-
Fittsize may have never met you... but I have! MUAHAHAHA!

Darunia is somewhat of a racist. Loving Israel!? What's this about? Last I knew you told me that we should invade Israel for being in the Middle East!!
___________________________________________________________

All in all, I think it's about time that the Darunia mocking stops. yes, I just did it above... but there's so much stuff said on this board that doesn't make sense from what I've heard or seen.
He has a very short temper (I'm sure you've noticed)... and will probably go insane if it persists. Thank you and goodnight.

Filmmaker1237
First off, I am laughing at what Illusion said becuase I know him and Darunia, and the whole thing is funny. However, I think we owe Darunia some respect for being pretty damn open about what he thinks about certain peoples, even if we dont agree. As for his atheism and stuff, him and Illusion are atheists, im Christian, and we all get along, so...all i hafta say is "kevin bowlby"

Filmmaker1237
and also stop mocking darunia, i agree..you guys dont really know him, so...he does have low self esteem and he does have a short temper, so please try and respect that

Dark Jaguar
While peopel who are CURRENTLY doing bad things, like illegal immigrants, are one thing Darunia, why do you dislike current day Japan and Germany for the past? The current generation had NOTHING to do with the war! You are WRONG to dislike them because of their ancestors. Dislike them if you want, but not their children! Would you arrest a child because their father killed someone? No you would not, nor would you find the child in any way responsible or be able to dislike them. THAT is what you are doing here.

lazyfatbum
Hey look, Filmmaker1237 is Darunia's dad. Or mom... or both. But anyway, we're sorry Darunia's parents; we didn't mean to offend the small minded piece of shit oxygen thieving wormy bastard fucktard ignorant waste of skin. He knows we love him*.

*(Love is a registered trademark of Emotional balances and Nervous Systems Inc. in distribution with Pheromones Systems International and is used with explicit permission. Love may or may not be real or sincere and should be taken moderately with caution. Not responsible for lost or misplaced heart strings or dignity, if cross breeding occurs, flush orifices immediately and consult your local Hallmark shop. Residents in Canada must stop breeding, all rights reserved 2004 Love(tm) Relationship(c) and Heart Icon owned by Human Societal needs for more information please visit http://www.fuckfest.org - Thank you for referring to Love, and btw Darunia; We all think very low of you. I'm dead serious. Fuck you in your asshole, dweeb)

Geno
I don't know much about Germany, but I like what Japan has become today. But yes, I do hate what they were 60 years ago.

And yes, the illegal Mexican immigrant problem needs to stop. I'm learning Spanish just for the fun of having a second language, not to communicate with foreigners in my country. You don't see me going to Mexico and demanding that everyone learn English for me, do you?

As for instructions, I just look at the pictures. The English instructions are short and uninformative and the rest is French and Spanish.

Filmmaker1237
lazyfatbum - you are a jerkoff piece of shit - shut the fuck up

Darunia
Fittisize, Words cannot describe your stupidity. You're big-headed, arrogant, and downright fucking rude. I wanted an apology because you called me one of the most evil people ever born (a Nazi,) which is horribly out of line. Politicians' careers are lost over much less than that. You swore and called me a Nazi again in reply. I have nothing more to ever say to you. You are the worst person I know, in person or online, and I hate you.

You've contradicted yourself Darunia. Saying you hate certain peoples such as the ones you mentioned is indeed a racist comment. I don't blame you and I respect your reasoning behind your dislake of the Japanese and Germans, but don't you think you should leave the past in the past?

Aye; but note how I worded it: Dislike as opposed to hate. I was sure to word it as such. I hate German of WWII, and I hate the Imperial Japanese army for there part too. I DISLIKE contemporary Japan for the trade deficit; that's all. I dislike contemporary Germany for its anti-American status in Iraq; just as well as I dislike countries that I traditionall like, as in France and Russia, as well. I do note hate any nationalities on this Earth; only Fittisize, who in my opinion casts a very bad image on Canada as well. Between his callous rudeness and ignorance, and ASM's inability to form the simplest spelling or sentence in English or even French, well---

I'll admit I'm not crazy about getting instruction manuals with 100 pages with 5 in English, but that's part of what made the USA what it is today: The greatest nation on Earth.

We are the greatest nation on Earth for our openness, and how we help other countries. We are free and tolerant. Yes, we are made from immigrants---immigrants who came to America 100 years ago, and blended in. They learned English. You speak of a mixing pot---a mixing pot is when the added elements (i.e. immigrants) blend to become part of the whole---THEY'RE NOT BLENDING! They're refusing to blend, because liberals say they don't have to. To BLEND in the "american mixing/blending pot", you have to try and fit in. Thusly, we are not a mixing pot anymore, but a pot of differement ingredients that twirl around, separately; like grease and water...or alcohol...yes, thats it; grease, water and alcohol. Because they don't mix, you see? A clever analogy.

[fittisize]THE language? There's more than one language on this Earth. Learn to speak two languages, adapt, become a better citizen as a result. You might even meet some new Hispanic friends if you learn to speak Spanish.

Oh my fucking GOD! There are more than one language on this Earth, but not in this country! You learn to speak two languages when you go somewhere; not when they come to you. They choose to come to us; THEY should try and fit in! We shouldn't contour to them, going out of our way to make them feel at home. I'll meet some "Hispanic friends", as you called them you lameass pussy Barney liberal, when they become "American friends" by joining our community and learning English.

At this time, for the sake of the religious argument, I would like to cite that the smartest person ever to grace this planet was an atheist, and held religious people in poor esteem: ( http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/04/27/bc.einsteininsights.ap/index.html )
...Besides his politics, Fantova wrote of Einstein's popularity and how he tried to write back to strangers, some of whom tried to convert him to Christianity. He said, "All the maniacs in the world write to me," she wrote.

Geno
It's funny... Mexicans come to the US because they don't like the way Mexico is, then they try to make the US more like Mexico. :erm:

lazyfatbum
filmmaker1237 -

-iLluSiON-
Darunia, you have to stop the liberal bashing. You can't go blaming everything on the liberals. That's just not how it works. If you were a politician, you would have been assassinated by now. Instead of blaming other people with your petty generalizations (as you do in real life too), why not open up to things and accept them? After all, didn't you agree with me last week that political parties are irrelevant now? I remember IMing you telling you that I really don't care for political parties.

illusion (5:45:44 PM): i side with jesse ventura
darunia (5:45:46 PM): oh.
darunia (5:45:48 PM): hehehe.
illusion (5:45:53 PM): he's goign to run for president next time around
llusion (5:45:58 PM): with no political designation
darunia (5:46:27 PM): he has no hope then.
darunia (5:46:31 PM): just like nader
illusion (5:46:41 PM): still makes a point though
darunia (5:46:47 PM): a vain point.
illusion (5:46:48 PM): it's such a political war within the country
illusion (5:46:54 PM): the forefathers didn't want it like that
illusion (5:47:32 PM): whenever someone wants to speak out AGAINST the other party's propoganda acts, they're just propogating their own side
darunia (5:47:57 PM): very true.
darunia (5:48:07 PM): i'm not sure if we should even have parties.
illusion (5:48:13 PM): i don't think we should

With that being said, please do not say things like "you lameass pussy Barney liberal".

And about the whole melting pot thing... it's called cultural pride. The 'hispanics' and any other culture in America is proud about their heritage. Do you expect people of different backgrounds to blend in immediatley and forget where they came from? We can't force them to speak English. If they choose not to or if they aren't educated to speak English then that is their problem. Our society is driven by the English language and has dozens of cultures inside it. It would be impossible to have a country of our size and mixture to have everyone speak the same langauge... even if it's the set language. It's just not going to happen. I'd like to see YOU change it if you're so for it.

I haven't posted on this forum in a while but I had to come back when I heard you were causing yet another squabble. How come these little things follow you around? Have you not learned? It's almost like you have a stick in your ass sometimes...

Geno
I have nothing against anyone speaking a non-English language in the United States, but anyone who comes here needs to learn how to communicate with the citizens in their own language. At home, they can speak Latin for all I care. I just don't want to have to learn another language in order to purchase fast food in my own country.

Filmmaker1237
I agree. Even if you have to learn friggin American sign language, I'd like you to know that "no lettuce" means exactly that.

Darunia
He IS a liberal! I hate him for his pro-Spanish stance, anti-English stance, and for being a goddamn cocksucker! Oh--did I just say cocksucker? Now am I going to get a spiel about how I should't call him a cocksucker?

If you suck cocks, you're a cocksucker!

If you drive a car, you're a car driver!

If you run around, you're a runner!

If you want your fucking ATMs in Espagnol, your murderers and criminals out of jail, if you want your babies dead rather than inconvenience their mothers, if you want Canada and Germany telling us how to run our coUntry, AND if you want every single fucking ethnicity BUT YOUR OWN to get into your local schools....YOU'RE A FUCKING LIBERAL!

A Black Falcon
They will eventually learn more English and become more like the rest of the Americans. Like every other immigrant group that has ever come to the US, they will eventually. It'll just take a few generations... and given modern times I'd expect them to keep a definite sense of a different identity. But they will know English. You just can't expect first generation immigrants to do that! Second generation you could think should be more bilingual, and each generation after more English-speaking, but it isn't an instant process and it can't be.

Oh, and without immigrants the US would be nothing. A continual flow of immigrants is a huge part of what keeps our nation running. They do the bad jobs no one else wants, after all... you don't notice because here it's normal for us to have immigrants but in other countries, the lack of them is causing major, major problems. Just look at Spain, Italy, Denmark, Japan, etc... all those nations that have aging, shrinking populations and dropping birthrates but severely restrict immigration in an attempt to keep ethnic purity... foolish and shortsighted in both the short and long runs. America's policy of allowing immigrants is why we are great.

And, this is key, NOT just European immigrants from 100 years ago and more! Did you know that immigration is the reason that our population is growing? Without it, the US would be dropping just like those European nations (and Japan) I mentioned before. A dropping population causes problems, especially when coupled with more old people... it's becoming very serious in Europe. So few paying in to the healthcare systems and so many taking out! Immigration helps solve that, for one, as well as filling in many jobs that no one else really wants... fear for the recent immigrant group is a very old thing, but misguided.

Oh, and if you want to see how long-term I'm talking about here, did you know why the US Constitution doesn't have a clause saying "English is the official language"? It's because of the Pennsylvania "Dutch" (they're actually Germans, but the German word for "German" sounds a lot like 'Dutch'... Deutch, I think... or close to that...), mostly. As well as other groups like the Dutch (real Dutch that time. :D) in New York. By the 1790s they weren't speaking English yet, and there were a lot of them so a official language was intentionally left out. And it was a very, very good idea.

Filmmaker1237
lazyfatbum=ass clown

Undertow
The issue isn't that hispanics, etc, speak their language. It's that we have to cater to the fact that they don't know how to speak English. If I start working in the medical field, I don't want someone that can't speak English yell at me if I can't speak their language. (I've seen it happen) There is no 'official' language of the US, but it's still common sense to learn English if you expect to get higher paying jobs.

@ filmmaker: welcome to the tc ranks of people who know Darunia offline.

A Black Falcon
And as immigrants and their families get to the point where they can get better paying jobs, they'll work more on learning English...

Darunia
Goddamit ABF, I'm not anti-immigration, I'm anti-non-speaking English! I neither expect nor want people to come to America learning English. I don't care who immigrates; as long as they do it LEGALLY and try to bring something good to our economy. I know that English is ridiculously hard to learn. I'm all for speaking whatever the fuck you want in your home, and amongst your family. But you should learn English, and speak it in public. We should NOT cater to them. They should learn at least enough to get by, or die.

And as immigrants and their families get to the point where they can get better paying jobs, they'll work more on learning English...

No, it's not like that. That's the way it was 100 years ago. Now, pretend you're a Mexican. If you want to get a higher paying job in America, go to anyplace you like, and demand a job. If they don't hire you because you're rambling in a foreign language to them, sue them for discrimination. After you win, they'll be forced to hire translators, and rewrite all of their policies and documents in a second language for you. That's the new American way; the Democratic way.

A Black Falcon
LISTEN TO YOURSELF!

"I'm not against them speaking Spanish, I just don't want them to do it anywhere I can hear."

"I'm not anti-immigration, I just don't want anyone who can't instantly integrate to immigrate."

Etc. Those are obviously contradictory! You cannot say you don't care what they speak but don't want them to do it around you. That means that you most certainly DO care. Oh, and as I said, it's never been true that people who speak other languages integrate immediately. It has always taken generations. They always spend the beginning time in seperate areas, where their group can be together. But at some point they do integrate... it's just not happening fast enough for you. Like the world should move to your call or something? :rolleyes:

[QUOTE]The French speak French.

The Spanish speak Spanish.

The English speak English.

The Russians speak Russian.

But the Americans are obligated to speak Portuguese, Spanish, Afrikaans, Zulu, Swahili, Esperantu, Italian, Corsican, Romanian, Russian, German, Japanese, Chinese, Arabic, Iranian, Turkish, Greek, Korean, Tagalog, Rapanui, Vietnamese, Mongolian, Ukrainian, Czech, Swedish and Klingon!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUOTE]

If you want to continue that... you know that that's an absurd generalization. In just about any other European nation, excepting possibly Italy and Germany, people learn at least TWO LANGUAGES! So they speak their local tounge and one of the major ones. I'd bet on Hispanics going in that direction.

Darunia
Maybe you didn't pay attention to what I wrote.

Goddamit ABF, I'm not anti-immigration, I'm anti-non-speaking English! I neither expect nor want people to come to America learning English. I don't care who immigrates; as long as they do it LEGALLY and try to bring something good to our economy. I know that English is ridiculously hard to learn. I'm all for speaking whatever the fuck you want in your home, and amongst your family. But you should learn English, and speak it in public. We should NOT cater to them. They should learn at least enough to get by, or die.

Try again and write back late. 'Kay, thanks. You rebutted this, even though this nullifies your rebuttal.

A Black Falcon
I read exactly what you wrote. And it's a fine reply to what that actually means.

Darunia
Very well; then I'll have to debunk it the long way. Again.

LISTEN TO YOURSELF! "I'm not against them speaking Spanish, I just don't want them to do it anywhere I can hear."

Yea, that's right. They have every right to do what they want amongst themselves, at home, but in public and for general usage, they should speak English. If I went to France, I would speak English on the phone with my friends and family in America, and I would speak French on the streets. I wouldn't demand that the French all learn English (though many of them do already speak it) because I'm so stubborn. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few---the nation shouldn't have to change to accomodate the minority.

I'm not anti-immigration, I just don't want anyone who can't instantly integrate to immigrate."

This has nothing to do with my stance. If you had really read what I wrote, you might've picked up on my lines wherein I clearly said, "I neither expect nor want people to come to America learning English... I know that English is ridiculously hard to learn... I'm all for speaking whatever the fuck you want in your home, and amongst your family. But you should learn English, and speak it in public." I don't expect or want anyone to have to "instantly integrate", but no one tries anymore because they don't have to.

It has always taken generations.

Well that's not true either. I know a nice family of Icelanders; first-generation Icelanders. I worked for them, delivering pizza at their restaurant. The parents have an accent, but speak fluent English, and their two stunningly beautiful daughters, one born in Iceland the other here, speak with NO accent...because they CHOSE TO LEARN ENGLISH. They didn't come here and bill Uncle Sam for an Icelandic-English translator. I respect them, and I'd gladly welcome more immigrants! They're industrious and make fine additions to our great land.

They always spend the beginning time in seperate areas, where their group can be together.

Uh; maybe in New York, but not all the time. There's no Icelandic getto in my town of 20,000. They don't need one, because THEY SPEAK ENGLISH!

But at some point they do integrate... it's just not happening fast enough for you. Like the world should move to your call or something?

You just don't get it, do you. NO ONE IS INTEGRATING ANYMORE! Say it all you want, it won't make it so. You don't even live in my country, how dare you pretend to know all our problems. I live in southern Massachusetts---New Bedford and Fall River are all thoroughly Portuguese. They speak it there. It is the language; it's like the city is a Portuguese colony. They're NOT INTEGRATING because more and more the government is saying "You don't have to, we'll adapt around you!"


If you want to continue that... you know that that's an absurd generalization. In just about any other European nation, excepting possibly Italy and Germany, people learn at least TWO LANGUAGES! So they speak their local tounge and one of the major ones. I'd bet on Hispanics going in that direction.

Yes, of course its an absurd generalization, but it's effectively true. You talk about European nations---WE'RE NOT ONE, AND NEITHER ARE YOU, CANADA! In Europe, one has to be bilingual because they're all powerful, small, closely-knit neighbors who form a community. America is a country that (at least used to) predominantly speak English. It was founded by English settlers, who absorbed and welcomed other nationalities. You want to subdivide our country into gettos and hoodlums; I want to be able to drive from Massachusetts to Florida without a flock of translators, and changing currencies from state to state!

Filmmaker1237
I went to a high school, near the cities that Darunia speaks of, where a Portuguese kid I knew, who IMMIGRATED from Portugal, was allowed to take Portuguese for his foreign language credits. Granted, it was a private school, but still. I'm with arunia, if you wanna speak your own language, fine, but in public, to those of us that speak English, you should also speak it.

Filmmaker1237
And also, at least one of those Icelandic daughters is a fine addition to this country. I mean real fine. Like hot fine.
::swoons::

-iLluSiON-
I really think some of YOU need to shut up if you've never even left the country.

lazyfatbum
Immigrants are why this country exists, we're all from somewhere else. For example, filmmaker1237 is from his own anus where he lovingly suckles on Darunia's hind teat and then they take turns jacking off on their mother's underwear. So, we're all different and we dont have to respect that, or even like the people around us. We just have to remember that killing is Bad... and Wrong. A new word should be made for killing because it's so Bad... and Wrong... It's Badong. It is the most badong thing in the world. Never EVER kill anyone, take them as hostages and use them as bait, forcefully have sex with them or use them like toilet paper, it doesn't matter; Just do NOT kill them.

I mean it's not like mexicans are muslims or anything. Dont treat them like Mexi-cants, let them show you that they can be mexiCANS! Go ahead and let the leaves fall on the lawn, show your pride and neglect the bathroom for a few months, then watch, as like tiny bronze skinned soldiers, as the hordes of MexiCANS use their cleaning/hard labor-genes to make your white life easier of ruling the planet and overtaking the role of God.

Filmmaker1237
No one said anything about white people wanting to be God. I am just saying, as is my friend Darunia, that people who come here should learn English, and not demand that everyone else learn their language.

What I can't believe is that we're all getting angry about an online argument. Okay, Darunia is a bit overboard in his views, and I came into the game a bit late. And maybe we don't all understand each other's views completely. But this is really, really dumb. I wouldn't have even gotten involved if all of you hadn't, after Darunia and Illusion both told you about Darunia's temper and self esteem, continued to attack him. Darunia was open with you guys and some of you just fucking jumped on him, like lazyfatbum. A political argument is one thing, but what has happened here is something else.

Filmmaker1237
Oh, and lazyfatbum...

Is Wayne Brady gonna hafta choke a bitch?

-iLluSiON-
Let's change the topic to the back of Darunia's car.

He taped flags of countries he LIKES onto the window!

He's such an internationalist!! :goron: :confused2

Filmmaker1237
Including Scotland, which I'm glad for. I love Scotland. That car reminds me of one thing though:

"Carry on my wayward son..."

The funny thing is that Darunia refuses to drive it.

Fittisize
I bet he has a big Soviet Union flag on the back of his car, to.

Darunia
I really think some of YOU need to shut up if you've never even left the country.

Translation: I like to brag that I had the paid-for opportunity to go to Europe some years ago. Verily, this makes my opinions on the world and politics superior to those of you who, *scoff* can't afford to go there.


He taped flags of countries he LIKES onto the window!

Another half-truth. I have flags of the four countries which comprise my background: England, France, Scotland, Ireland. If that doesn't prove that I don't hate immigration (why wouldn't I just have an American flag), then you're just not listening.

I bet he has a big Soviet Union flag on the back of his car, to.

No, sorry--I'm not Russian, but if I were, I'd have a Russian Federation flag for sure. Don't be sore because the only flag you're fit to carry on your Mazda is: :gay2:

A Black Falcon
Yea, that's right. They have every right to do what they want amongst themselves, at home, but in public and for general usage, they should speak English. If I went to France, I would speak English on the phone with my friends and family in America, and I would speak French on the streets. I wouldn't demand that the French all learn English (though many of them do already speak it) because I'm so stubborn. The good of the many outweighs the good of the few---the nation shouldn't have to change to accomodate the minority.

Just based on our airline pilots (and a few people in the airport) (last year we took Air France to Denmark...), the French do speak English, but with a very thick accent... it's like they don't want to really try to speak it... but hey, the French are weird. :) If 'weird' means 'wish they were still a great power', that is.

Well that's not true either. I know a nice family of Icelanders; first-generation Icelanders. I worked for them, delivering pizza at their restaurant. The parents have an accent, but speak fluent English, and their two stunningly beautiful daughters, one born in Iceland the other here, speak with NO accent...because they CHOSE TO LEARN ENGLISH. They didn't come here and bill Uncle Sam for an Icelandic-English translator. I respect them, and I'd gladly welcome more immigrants! They're industrious and make fine additions to our great land.

Just about everyone in the Nordic countries (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Iceland, probably Finland too...) ALREADY speaks good English, with little accent. In their own countries. Did you miss where I said 'most of Europe already speaks multiple languages'? So Icelandic people... would come here and speak English well? I'd bet they have been able to do that since elementary school!

Latin America doesn't have to learn another language to survive because Spanish is the major tounge in the region. So they just learn Spanish. Surely this concept is not too hard for you!

Oh, and before you say anything, 100 years ago most Europeans knew one language. Actually, this 'everyone knows multiple toungues unless their main language is German/French/English (or maybe Spanish and Italian, but I don't know)' thing is quite new...

You just don't get it, do you. NO ONE IS INTEGRATING ANYMORE! Say it all you want, it won't make it so. You don't even live in my country, how dare you pretend to know all our problems. I live in southern Massachusetts---New Bedford and Fall River are all thoroughly Portuguese. They speak it there. It is the language; it's like the city is a Portuguese colony. They're NOT INTEGRATING because more and more the government is saying "You don't have to, we'll adapt around you!"

New Bedford? I've been there once a few years ago. Went to the whaling museum. And some Portugese restaurant. :)

Oh, and it's as I said. In these days, we're re-evaluating the old ideas of 'make them conform to our society'. For instance, remember Ellis Island? There they'd change people's names when they didn't seem 'American' enough... now only the person themself would do that, if they wanted to. It's called "tolerance". Now, it should include the minority group adapting to the majority, for sure, but it means that the goal isn't a completely dissolved group that's the same as the main culture, it's a unique (but just as American!) group IN that main culture.

Yes, after a few generations they should learn English, if just to fit in to our society better. With it will come opportunities, for sure. But you go way too far. You cannot expect people to act just like everyone else! People are different. I, unlike you, realize that...

Okay, fine, Maine doesn't exactly have the most diversity. To be precise, Maine is dead last in nonwhite percent of population... but New Hampshire and Vermont are next, so it's a regional thing. :) But that doesn't mean that I can't say that obviously wrong positions are wrong.
Yes, of course its an absurd generalization, but it's effectively true. You talk about European nations---WE'RE NOT ONE, AND NEITHER ARE YOU, CANADA! In Europe, one has to be bilingual because they're all powerful, small, closely-knit neighbors who form a community. America is a country that (at least used to) predominantly speak English. It was founded by English settlers, who absorbed and welcomed other nationalities. You want to subdivide our country into gettos and hoodlums; I want to be able to drive from Massachusetts to Florida without a flock of translators, and changing currencies from state to state![/quote]

Ghettos aren't good. Just look at inner cities, those are in effect ghettos... not much good comes from such things. I'm sure that there is a way ethnic groups can keep some ethnic identity without all living together (and as a result not learning as much of the majority language and not going as far as they could)... now, in some cases, many people of the same nationality can help eachother -- like the Somalis in Lewiston, maybe (not that you know what I mean) -- but if it's one where they speak another language and keep apart from the majority society -- and have worse jobs, etc -- it should be something that maybe the new immigrants go to, as they don't really have anywhere else, but from which more established ones are able to get away. The fact that in some parts of the US towns are dividing on ethnic lines, with all of one group in one part and all of the others in another (like Black/Hispanic/White), I'd say, is a worrying trend...

Translation: I like to brag that I had the paid-for opportunity to go to Europe some years ago. Verily, this makes my opinions on the world and politics superior to those of you who, *scoff* can't afford to go there.

This connects to that you know. I haven't been to any Spanish speaking countries, true, but I ahve been to Europe and seen how many people there speak English...

I haven't been to Europe three times because my parents are rich or something. Middle, maybe upper middle, but not rich. It's because we have always travelled a lot. My parents just like to travel, and we were lucky enough to be able to go on lengthy (month-plus) vacations each summer because my dad's a professor and doesn't have work in summers... Oh, that 'professor' thing is a big part THERE (for our trips to Europe). Our year in Slovenia was because it was his subattical year and he taught some at the University of Llubljana, and the trip to Denmark last year was during a math conference he attended... Only England in '98 was just for a vacation.


Another half-truth. I have flags of the four countries which comprise my background: England, France, Scotland, Ireland. If that doesn't prove that I don't hate immigration (why wouldn't I just have an American flag), then you're just not listening.

No, you have a standard Republican viewpoint -- that America was built from the great variety of European immigrants who arrived up until the early 1900s.

As you can guess from what I've already said, that's completely wrong and idiotic.

-iLluSiON-
I really think some of YOU need to shut up if you've never even left the country.

Translation: I like to brag that I had the paid-for opportunity to go to Europe some years ago. Verily, this makes my opinions on the world and politics superior to those of you who, *scoff* can't afford to go there.

Bragging? No. Stating that it's only right to proclaim something once you've seen it for yourself? Yes. No where in that did I talk about my trip to Europe and how it changed my political views. It didn't. Stop assuming like you always do. You're always claiming how you think I'm rich and whatnot, my dad hasn't even had a job in 5 months. You know who's the most likely choice to blame? Bush. Because of him, the nation's umemployment rate has shot right up. Everyday my father sends out his resume and gets a lot of interviews. The only vacant jobs that meet his requirements are halfway across the country. Stop complaining like you're 'poor' because you're not.


He taped flags of countries he LIKES onto the window!

Another half-truth. I have flags of the four countries which comprise my background: England, France, Scotland, Ireland. If that doesn't prove that I don't hate immigration (why wouldn't I just have an American flag), then you're just not listening.
You're not FRENCH. Get it through your head. You have very little French Canadian in you. That doesn't make you FRENCH. I have French Canadian in me as well.. does that give me a reason to be pro-French? No.

I bet he has a big Soviet Union flag on the back of his car, to.

No, sorry--I'm not Russian, but if I were, I'd have a Russian Federation flag for sure.

You took Russian in highschool. You're always writing Russian wherever you're going. Don't say it's because you're just interested in the WWII history of Russia.

Fittisize
He took Russian? What a nerd.

Ryan
Many immigrants DO learn English before they come here. Look at lazy's own wife, she speaks absolutely perfect English (though I get to teach her new words sometimes), even though she never stepped foot in America until 2001.

Plus, it's the liberal stance to call us anti-immigration, and that's not it in the least. I'm anti-ILLEGAL immigration! Legal immigrants come to America, file the papers, get a social security number, and become taxpayers. Many of the Mexican Flood do not. It's not a matter of racial purity, and even the annoyance at their refusal to integrate isn't the core concern, it's the fact that they do not legally belong here, and worse, they siphon tax money, getting all sorts of benefits from the government, and do not pay taxes in return. If they would immigrate legally, there would be far less concern over them.

Darunia
[weltall]It's not a matter of racial purity, and even the annoyance at their refusal to integrate isn't the core concern, it's the fact that they do not legally belong here, and worse, they siphon tax money, getting all sorts of benefits from the government, and do not pay taxes in return. If they would immigrate legally, there would be far less concern over them.

Weltall---thank you, but don't bother. We're pilgrims in an unholy land, to quote a movie. They knew what's best because they've either been to Europe, or come from Canada. What would the average American know about America, Weltall.

[Fittisize]He took Russian? What a nerd.

Yea, I mean like definitely. It's not like Russian was a major world language up until a decade ago. It's not like learning foreign languages is an admirable pursuit or anything. I mean, only a nerd would bother learning a foreign language, right Fittisize? That must be why your illegal hispanic pals don't learnn English, because they're too cool and not nerdy enough for that. Your dissing Russian isn't like being degrading to an entire nation, is it? Oh, but you can get away with it, because you're a liberal, et les liberaux se protègent, l'un et l'autre.

(Illusion)You're not FRENCH. Get it through your head. You have very little French Canadian in you.

More than half, sir, which would technically be a majority.

That doesn't make you FRENCH. I have French Canadian in me as well.. does that give me a reason to be pro-French? No.

Well no shit it doesn't make me French, do I have to BE FRENCH to LEARN FRENCH and have an interest in that nation and it's culture/history? You're taking Spanish, are you Spanish?

You took Russian in highschool. You're always writing Russian wherever you're going. Don't say it's because you're just interested in the WWII history of Russia.

Well, yea; because it's cool. At least a few other people here speak Russian too. It impresses people when you write in cyrillic, and I enjoy the challenge. Interested in WWII history? The eastern front was the most boring, I don't care about 'Russian WWII history' at all---I only like 'Enemy at the Gates' is all.

-iLluSiON-
I just love how you listen to other people's opinions and open up to them. (sarcasm)

Sometimes you're just too proud about your beliefs, Ben. BEN. Yes, that's your name. not Darunia.

It's how it is in real life as well... maybe you should try to accept diversity in opinion for once... maybe it will result in getting laid.

No need to thank me for the advice... even though you're going to take it as a slam anyway. Like you always do.

Undertow
I just love how you listen to other people's opinions and open up to them. (sarcasm)

I don't think anyone here is really open to other peoples' opinions. Even I got in a stupid argument about anime because I said it didn't like it much, even though I was being tact and not forceful. You know what? Anime still sucks. Oh my! <img src="http://www.sighost.us/members/jay803/emotmonocle2.gif">

Ben's not that bad offline, imo. But he still needs to cool down here. No sense defending your honor on the internet. :)

Ryan
THE language? There's more than one language on this Earth. Learn to speak two languages, adapt, become a better citizen as a result. He took Russian? What a nerd. Yeah.

lazyfatbum
You're actually getting angry? You think this is a heated debate...? Wait till N_A decides to come back. Then you'll see a heated argument. A person angry over a thread in a message board is just plain funny. Everything I say on this board is either completely factual or a joke, I take no responsibility for anyone who cant decipher the two.

This thread is pure and simple; just about everyone here is a contradicting moron. You’re all desperately trying to push your opinions when you don’t even know what they are because you're either young, or just inexperienced.

Look at this country right now, when a black man says something derogatory or anti towards a sensitive subject, everyone turns their head away and pretends they didn't hear it. We let it slide because of guilt. We all feel guilty for the way immigrants (which include the first blacks in this country from Africa) have been treated, but the truth is, we've actually been pretty tame when compared to any other country and their treatment of immigrants. Hell, during WW2 Britain marched Jewish immigrants right back in to Germany because the UK didn’t want to 'deal' with them. All we did was take slaves from Africa and made them slaves here.

But ever since the birth of America, people from all over the world want to come here where they can live free and get good pay (hahaha) so why didn't we give that to the African slaves? Because we liked getting our laundry done, having our businesses clean and having dinner served by 6 PM and still have enough free time to take the family out on the town. Now that blacks, Mexicans, Asians, etc are all considered free and equal, they're doing our laundry, making our dinners and cleaning our homes and businesses and getting paid for it. And America still feels guilty - We don’t understand why the majority of blacks live in poverty in bad areas of town, we don’t get it when we see Mexicans blowing leaves in someone else's driveway.

We feel like it's our fault, that we put them there. The truth is, they want to be there because they don’t want to adapt and they won’t teach their children to adapt, they want to be around people like themselves and pretend the other people don’t exist. It's the oldest and most powerful instinct. And now we live in a time where people are afraid to have an opinion unless it sounds good on paper or is politically correct. You can’t hate anyone now without being branded as an evil throwback to early western civilization. Bullshit; I will hate or like anyone I choose. It is a privilege to be respected, not a right; But people are so frightened of speaking up that we let it happen and watch it from the side lines, we even raise our children to be numb pacifists who ignore political conflict and take the easy way out.

This all leads to this thread right now: Political pacifists angry at themselves arguing over how other people should be treated and desperately trying to push their opinion on others in the hope that they’ll convert someone just to justify their own mental and moral dilemma. If you want to be a goody two shoes-I love everybody-black and white precursor to devout Christianity then by all means go for it, but do NOT try tell me that your opinion is more correct than mine.

Geno
Dude... I just think illegal Mexican immigrants shouldn't force me to learn Spanish so that they don't have to learn English in my country, that's all. >>

lazyfatbum
Gufaw.

-iLluSiON-
Look at this country right now, when a black man says something derogatory or anti towards a sensitive subject, everyone turns their head away and pretends they didn't hear it.

Oh yeah... is that why Chappelle is so popular? lol :clap:

Darunia
Oh yeah... is that why Chappelle is so popular? lol

Probably. You know it's true. Black people call themselves (and forgive my saying it, you liberal femm-a-nazis,) but "nigger". It's in rap songs and movies. It can't be that degrading if they use it so freely amongst themselves. A white person saying that word in any context is a racist. A black person saying it in any context is an artist.

Geno Dude... I just think illegal Mexican immigrants shouldn't force me to learn Spanish so that they don't have to learn English in my country, that's all.

Dude, Geno, stop being so anti-immigration! Fittisize will say you're a nazi, Illusion will blast you as not having been to Europe, and ABF will spend hours online looking up remedial facts to impress you! Just resign yourself, because in a few more years, WE'LL be the minority, and then we'll get free college and all of that horse shit.

alien space marine
I am back!

To suggest that no nazi could be wrought unto this world without his parents being nazis is kindergarten-level stupidity. Hitler's parents weren't nazis. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Nazis didnt exist but anti semitism did for centuries.Adolf dad was a white supremacist.


Hitler's father apparently nailed into little Adolf head at a young age that the arians were the superior race and all the imigrants and gypses jews ect.. Were eating away their superior blood line. He also was the first one to tell Hitler he had a important destiny.

It was his early enviroment that set him off , I remeber a old movie in the 70's were they had Hitlers clone but he didnt turn out evil because he didnt grow up in the same enviroment or had any of the same experiences.

lazyfatbum
His father was angry at the Jews because of WW1 where the Jews wouldn't fight for Germany. The Jews took control of Germany's commerce and started the entire 'Jews and money' thing. Then early in to WW2 Hitler used many different ploys in order to get people to hate Jews, even teaching children that they weren't human. But in the end, all Hitler wanted was to have Germans in Germany. The Jews, (ultimately immigrants but had grown there for many generations) wouldn't leave since they had no where to go, so he methodically killed them. That's why the United States created Israel so the Jews have a home.

Dave Chappel makes fun of *everyone*, he's a roaster (old term for someone who is really good at insult jokes). In one episode, he'll make fun of Catholics, Mexicans, Irish, Blacks, Christians, Jews, Redheads, People with afros, People with hockey-hair, People who like folk music, People who like rap music, People who wear African clothes in public, drug users, alcoholics, and the early 90's. But most of all, anything that we as a culture consider to be shallow, embaressing and/or innapropriate. :D He's popular as a comic because of that. We all love a good pain in the ass sometimes.

Fittisize
Yea, I mean like definitely. It's not like Russian was a major world language up until a decade ago. It's not like learning foreign languages is an admirable pursuit or anything. I mean, only a nerd would bother learning a foreign language, right Fittisize? That must be why your illegal hispanic pals don't learnn English, because they're too cool and not nerdy enough for that. Your dissing Russian isn't like being degrading to an entire nation, is it? Oh, but you can get away with it, because you're a liberal, et les liberaux se protègent, l'un et l'autre.

I admire your pursuing a foreign language about as much as I admire the big healthy shit I just took two minutes ago. Why bother learning Russian?? You're not going to learn enough in grade school to someday go to Moscow and have heated debates with Russians over there. What's the point in learning a few words and phrases? Anybody can look in an English-Russian dictionary and learn as much as you did in that three credit high school Russian course. You might want to brush up on your French to, you FLQ wannabe. When in the fuck have "le" and "un" ever gone together??

Undertow
Why bother learning Russian??

Because he wanted to? How about a big hearty glass full of shut the fuck up. Go beat some cats* while listening to RATM, or something. Or, even better, argue your point without dragging stupid shit in.




*don't

You might want to brush up on your French to<b>o</B>,

You might want to brush up on your English. You consistently confuse "too" with "to".

-iLluSiON-
Darunia is currently on a trip to Providence, Rhode Island with his French class. He shall continue this shortly.*




*is telling truth

-iLluSiON-
I don't know if you guys saw SouthPark tonight but it had to do with this topic! It was hilarious!

The people from the future were immigrating to the present day and they were taking their jobs. They couldn't really speak present day English and were cuasing problems. one of you had to see it... come on.

Geno
Illusion, you beat me to it by about 15 minutes!

Geno
And just for the occasion, I wrote down a quote from the episode which I was dying to use on ABF... you're an aging hippie liberal douche! Ha ha ha... yeah.

-iLluSiON-
And just for the occasion, I wrote down a quote from the episode which I was dying to use on ABF... you're an aging hippie liberal douche! Ha ha ha... yeah.

what about the angry conservative? haha

"they took our jiyyoobbss"

Geno
I think it was something like... angry intolerant redneck white trash conservative.

"Stan, don't be a timesist!"
"A what?"
"You know, a racist, except you discriminate--"
"Against people from the future, yeah yeah..."

Darunia
[fittisize]Why bother learning Russian?? You're not going to learn enough in grade school to someday go to Moscow and have heated debates with Russians over there.

So only future linguists are entitled to study a foreign language. Illusion, my the Fittisize Code of Laws, must move to Spain and translate there. Oh, thanks for clearing that up, buttfuck; you see, I though I could just take a course because it interested me. Using your same flawless logic, only people who are going to authors and professors can ever take English courses; only historians can every take a history course; only mathematicians can take a math course

What's the point in learning a few words and phrases?

Because I enjoy speaking Russian. If I could be fluent I would, but onlike your Most Excellent Omnipotency, I cannot instantaneously do such things. Thusly, I can only learn a little bit at a time. Forgive me this tragic human flaw, oh Your Assholeness.

Anybody can look in an English-Russian dictionary and learn as much as you did in that three credit high school Russian course.

They might have some trouble reading the Cyrillic, as it is a different alphabet, and has more letters than ours. In fact, I'll give you $50 if you can go to a book store, pick up a Russian book for the first time, and learn to conjugate verbs in three tenses, and learn the difference between the accusative, dative or the other cases. I though dictionaries only offered vocabulary; now grammatical lessons.

You might want to brush up on your French to, you FLQ wannabe. When in the fuck have "le" and "un" ever gone together??

Um...always? Are you really implying that in French there is no liaison between definitive articles and proceding vowels? LOL. For a moment there, I ALMOST thought you knew what you were talking about, Your Omnipotency.

Geno
I'd join the argument, but I don't know any Russian or French, so I'm just going to say... hippies suck.

A Black Falcon
Dude, Geno, stop being so anti-immigration! Fittisize will say you're a nazi, Illusion will blast you as not having been to Europe, and ABF will spend hours online looking up remedial facts to impress you! Just resign yourself, because in a few more years, WE'LL be the minority, and then we'll get free college and all of that horse shit.

I don't look things up for debates with you. I have a few times in political debates with Weltall, but those require more facts than these... everything I say is things I think up.


As for foreign languages, go ahead. I'm bad at them which is why I don't take more, but I did go through Spanish IV (two years Jr. High, 3 in highschool)... of course that was several years back now so I don't remember much, but I did take it. Not really for fun though, it was always my least favorite academic subject...



We feel like it's our fault, that we put them there. The truth is, they want to be there because they don’t want to adapt and they won’t teach their children to adapt, they want to be around people like themselves and pretend the other people don’t exist. It's the oldest and most powerful instinct. And now we live in a time where people are afraid to have an opinion unless it sounds good on paper or is politically correct. You can’t hate anyone now without being branded as an evil throwback to early western civilization. Bullshit; I will hate or like anyone I choose. It is a privilege to be respected, not a right; But people are so frightened of speaking up that we let it happen and watch it from the side lines, we even raise our children to be numb pacifists who ignore political conflict and take the easy way out.

This all leads to this thread right now: Political pacifists angry at themselves arguing over how other people should be treated and desperately trying to push their opinion on others in the hope that they’ll convert someone just to justify their own mental and moral dilemma. If you want to be a goody two shoes-I love everybody-black and white precursor to devout Christianity then by all means go for it, but do NOT try tell me that your opinion is more correct than mine.

You had some good points before this point, Lazy, but... you think they really want to be in that situation? Okay, I'll give you that many blacks especially don't try as hard as they could to get out. That is true. But they've been near the bottom for so long now... As for Mexicans, I'd say it's too early to tell, really. Many of them are relatively recent arrivals and the recent ones, as I've said, are always the ones on bottom. We'll have to give them time... but I would admit that in the illegals case it doesn't look as good. They come here for opportunity but don't really understand all of what it means to succeed in America and won't make the full effort...

As for illegals, I obviously don't like them. What should we do? Well, I don't support a fence like (insane) Pat Buchanan said at some time, but we probably could be doing more to fight it... we need to do more than just kicking them back across the border, too. They'll just try again next week!

Darunia
I'm still laughing over this golden little chestnut of stupidity:!!!

When in the fuck have "le" and "un" ever gone together??

Fittisize
Um...always? Are you really implying that in French there is no liaison between definitive articles and proceding vowels? LOL. For a moment there, I ALMOST thought you knew what you were talking about, Your Omnipotency.
But they DON'T go together, Separatist. They are two different ways of identify and nouns. "L'un" isn't even a shadow of French. :rolleyes: Let's go back to basic French, because you obviously need a tune-up: le chat means THE CAT. Un chat means A CAT. L'un chat means THE A CAT, and I have no idea what that is supposed to fucking mean. Make up your mind, Goron Fag, what is it: le, or un? You can't have both words one after the other.

Undertow
"le"= the
"un"= one

"L'un"= the one. Might want to check back on that, fittisize. Even if you do a google search you'll find it's a real word.

Great Rumbler
I used Babelfish and that's what I came up with.

Fittisize
When 'un' is used as the number one, then yes.

What the fuck is with Darunia's henchmen replying all of his posts for him?

Undertow
When 'un' is used as the number one, then yes.

OMFG, LAST WORD. Hehe.

edited. :D

lazyfatbum
I remember when threads like this were actually funny.

But now it's all... euro-flavor.

Here, let me help:

lazyfatbum
Hahahaha! MUCH better! Man... is that his prostrate!?

I think it is! Funny AND educational!

Remember kids, as soon as your 40, you get fingered by the doctor. In fact, the doctor has to finger your asshole otherwise you cant get a job or insurance! Believe it... or not! *Jack Palance voice*

-iLluSiON-
*masturbates to goatse*

Geno
...........................ew.

Darunia
et les liberaux se protègent, l'un et l'autre.

Translation for people who don't know any French (like Fittisize):

"...and the liberals protect themselves, one and another." It's an idiomatic expression, l'un et l'autre. I've heard it a million times both here in my college French class and throughout four years at high school. I've read it in literature. It IS correct. I encourage you to ask someone around you who speaks French. Maybe our friend ASM will translate it, even---if he can spell it correctly. In the end, the result is: you made a terrible ass of yourself, and I've won a complete victory over you for your laughably arrogant, hysterically inaccurate knowledge of French. :far-out:

alien space marine
Who ever put that disgusting shit on this thread! Must die painfully!

Undertow
Hahahaha! MUCH better! Man... is that his prostrate!?

I think it is! Funny AND educational!


OOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLDDDDDDDDDDDD. Somethingawful's FYAD is considerably worse than that, now. Go back to 1999.

(good work at diverting the conversation, though. really.)

lazyfatbum
Of course it's old! It's a classic picture! And now this:

lazyfatbum
That's a big bucket of WTF! :idea:

Dark Jaguar
That's it, get out of my house you hippy!

Freaky arm-ear man: Fine, fine! What, what are you staring at?

DJ: I... I have to draw you...

FAEM: .... *smiles*

*in room drawing freaky creature* DJ: You're why cavemen painted on walls!

Ryan
Silent Hill!

Ryan
That's it, get out of my house you hippy!

Freaky arm-ear man: Fine, fine! What, what are you staring at?

DJ: I... I have to draw you...

FAEM: .... *smiles*

*in room drawing freaky creature* DJ: You're why cavemen painted on walls!
You are so damn awesome.

Darunia
If I didn't know better---I'd say that came from the episode of Family Guy where Peter draws the plumber with the eyes too close together.

Great Rumbler
And you'd be right.

Ryan
It came from "As Good As It Gets". Greg Kinnear says those same words to Helen Hunt.

Geno
...dude, not only are his ears and arms switched, but so are his eyes and boobies.

Okay, this thread is freaking me out, so... screw you gahs, ah'm goin' home... *walks off*

Darunia
You and your Helen Hunt obsession, Weltall. :dunno:

-iLluSiON-
You shouldn't be talking Darunia. You've had a share of yours.

Ryan
You and your Helen Hunt obsession, Weltall. :dunno:
You say that as if it were a bad thing.

But I'm right nonetheless. :)

EdenMaster
At least he doesn't have that gigantic sig picture...the small blessings are often the best :).

alien space marine
:carrot:

Great Rumbler
:screwy:

Darunia
Who would've thought that a thread started by me to let you know about my computer virus would've spawned such intense debate, and go so far. :dunno:

alien space marine
It went from comp virus to Goron teasing, Then to a debate on religion, Then a discusion on gay sex, Finally Helen Hunt.

Geno
And now we shall change the topic to... that annoying piece of popcorn that always gets stuck in your gums! I hate that thing!

Darunia
Well I hate popcorn anyway.

Undertow
Go go goatse! <img src="http://sighost.us/members/jay803/emotgoatse.gif">

lazyfatbum
I just want everyone to know that the man stretching his anus is real.

What I dont get is why... I dont mean why he did it. We're all perverts and he was bored, that's easy to understand. But why does the anus stretch to such proportions, why does it have such an elastisity? The vagina has it, for obvious reasons. No matter how big your weenie is a baby will always be bigger, but why the anus... maybe because in females, if the anus didn't stretch the vagina would be restricted in its stretching... which would make birthing difficult. And the same genes responsible for the stretchy butthole would simply translate to male genes. But it has no purpose on a male (unless you're the goatsex guy, and/or homo). So ultimately... it's like nipples on a man. No reason, just left over genes designed for females.

lazyfatbum
But then, by God and nature's design... is anal sex for men or women really so wrong?

Undertow
It's been said that he's a hermaphrodite, which explains the elasticity. (being that he's not really stretching his *anus*.)

On another note, there's a picture of him laying at a beach on the internet, and his face can be seen. I'VE SEEN GOATSE'S FACE!

Geno
He must take big s**ts.

Darunia
I want to see, I want to see Goatse's face. And I still don't believe that the picture is authentic. I trust Lazy about as much as I can stand him.

Undertow
This is his face cropped from a much larger and 'detailed' image.

Dark Jaguar
Wait wait wait, you culled all these disturbing images from one place?

Undertow
Mostly from the somethingawful.com forums.

Dark Jaguar
Remind me never to go there...

Undertow
Unless you're in FYAD, you won't see something like that without proper NWS warning and a link.

SA forums > all others

alien space marine
Maybe cause you might need to take a really big shit.

Dark Jaguar
Nah, I'll just never go there.

-iLluSiON-
I want to see, I want to see Goatse's face. And I still don't believe that the picture is authentic. I trust Lazy about as much as I can stand him.

You should have downloaded the .zip file that was hosted on the site. It had about 40 pictures of him and how he did it.

You're such a "seeing is believing" person.

Geno
That is such a big fat ass than when people walk down the street, they say, "Dammit that is a big fat ass!"
*drumroll/cymbals* :hump:

alien space marine
http://members.lycos.co.uk/zeikfriedsbonimages/goatse_pumpkin.jpg

Geno
:confused2

alien space marine
That looks like it was copied straight from that other picture.

Geno
Hey hey, let's go, la la la...
La la la la, protect my balls...
La la la la, so let's fighting...
Let's fighting love!
Let's fighting love!

Dark Jaguar
What's that song?

Geno
A Japanese song from a South Park episode that was aired earlier this year. (Japanese words replaced with la la la 'cause I don't know Japanese.)

Darunia
Hahaha that was a good one. Poor Butters. :crap:

Geno
Yeah, I was a bit shocked when Kenny threw that ninja star in his eye, but it was hilarious. Butters seems to be okay now... gotta love lack of episode-to-episode continuity. Kenny has to love it, considering without it he'd have only appeared in the first episode.

Darunia
Amen to that.

Dark Jaguar
Um, alright then...

<embed src="http://www.tcforums.com/Ninjafight.mp3" hidden="true">