View Thread : Banjo Pilot


Great Rumbler
Like Diddy Kong Racing, but different.

Rare developed Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge for GBA in 2003 and their next game heading for release through THQ is Banjo Pilot. It looks like you can select from nine characters. It will support four players, but we don't know if that means a battle mode or in the racing mode.

N-Philes (http://www.n-philes.com/php/eplkyazeulkpukvzvepz.php)

OB1
And the game looks a hundred times better than Diddy Kong Pilot! I've been waiting for something to replace Mario Kart GBA for some time now.

Great Rumbler
I've been waiting for something to replace Mario Kart GBA for some time now.

And here it is!

Laser Link
Sweet. I am really glad they released this. And it reminds me to check out the GBA B~K. I hope it is as good as DKR. The last couple Mario Karts have (IMNSHO) failed to live up to MK64 and SMK, so I'm worried.

OB1
DD was more like SMK than MK64 was, and I definitely consider it the superior game over MK64. It's just that there have been so many innovations in the cart racing genre since MK64 came out that I expected DD to be more than just a bit better than MK64.

A Black Falcon
That fact justified my not spending $50 for it, you know... :)

But yes, I hope this was good. DKR was great...

big guy
DD would have been better than MK64 if there'd been more multi-teired battle levels. the single player was better than MK64, but battle, one of my favorite modes, just fell flat for me (pun intended...OH!)

Great Rumbler
Yeah, the battle-mode just wasn't as fun as it was in MK64, but the co-op more than made up for the that. The co-op mode is a TON of fun!

lazyfatbum
okay where the FUCK is kazooie!?

why is banjo flying a PLANE when he can use KAZOOIE (with red feathers) HUH??? WHY doesnt the fucking WITCH use her BROOM with EYES??? I understand that humba wumba needs a plane and so does mumbo jumbo (though they could be flying on some kind of magical animal thing) but fuck people, Rare has certainly fallen, they developed a game reusing their trade marked characters and didnt any research on their OWN CHARACTERS for Banjo Pilot. Rare is dead to me

man now i know why women over react so much, it's fun! :D

A Black Falcon
Because a plane is faster than Kazooie? Because Kazooie can't fly indefinitely with Banjo on her back? :)

Great Rumbler
That's no reason not to include it!

OB1
I think that would make for a very slow, and limited racing game.

Great Rumbler
Not if they made all the people go fast it wouldn't!

OB1
Kazooie flies very slowly.

Great Rumbler
Rare could make Kazooie not fly slow.

OB1
Then it would be dumb, like making Yoshi run like Sonic or something.

Great Rumbler
Mario should have rode Yoshi in Mario Kart. That would have been cool.

OB1
Yeah that would have been great.

...


And by great I mean retarded.

Great Rumbler
And be retarded you mean totally awesome?

lazyfatbum
OB1 is right, the tiny fictional plane is much faster than the talking fictional bird. Way to go, OB1. keep up the great work!

And by great work I mean you're an idiot(tm).

And by way to go, I was refering to the fact that i just peed in your nostrils.

Rare was making a racing game called Donkey Kong Racing for NGC where you play as Rare characters (mostly DK characters) riding different animals in a racing game on land, water and in the air. I was making a reference to that and stating that Rare should have brought that idea over to Banjo Pilot, you small dumb man.

OB1
Yeah they rode rhinos and ostriches and the like, not small birds, stupid. Last time I checked, tiny fictional airplanes (as seen in DKR) are faster than talking fictional birds (Kazooie). Have you ever played any of the Banjo games before? It seems that you haven't if you think Kazooie is even somewhat fast. Banjo Pilot is based off of the flying portions of Diddy Kong Racing, which is why they're flying tiny airplanes instead of animals. Who knows what will happen to what was formally known as Donkey Kong Racing.

A Black Falcon
I want vehicles. People running for a racing game just looks dumb... see Sonic R...

OB1
Or that crappy X-Box racer... what's it called...

Great Rumbler
Last time I checked, tiny fictional airplanes (as seen in DKR) are faster than talking fictional birds (Kazooie). Have you ever played any of the Banjo games before? It seems that you haven't if you think Kazooie is even somewhat fast.

You do realize that Rare could just MAKE Kazooie fly fast, right?

A Black Falcon
But it'd still be kind of dumb...

OB1
You do realize that Rare could just MAKE Kazooie fly fast, right?

Then when you'd be playing Banjo-Kazooie you'd go like "geez why is she so SLOW, this was so much faster in Banjo Pilot!". You'd have to make up a reason for her flying much faster in Banjo Pilot, which would be dumb. And tiny airplanes are better. :p

Great Rumbler
Then when you'd be playing Banjo-Kazooie you'd go like "geez why is she so SLOW, this was so much faster in Banjo Pilot!".

No I wouldn't.

You'd have to make up a reason for her flying much faster in Banjo Pilot, which would be dumb

Why? It's a racing game and in racing games things go fast! Duh!

A Black Falcon
Yes, the worst part would be some stupid explanation for why they were suddenly fast... at least with Sonic they're fast already. :)

And you're right that tiny airplanes are cooler.

OB1
You can't just make kazooie as fast as an airplane. It would be like making Banjo as fast as Sonic.

Great Rumbler
You can't just make kazooie as fast as an airplane.

And why not?! I DEMAND you show me where it's written that you can't make a racing game where a small, red bird flies as fast as a tiny airplane!!

A Black Falcon
Because Kazooie isn't that fast in the OTHER games! And major inconsistencies either require stupid stories (Superman 64 and the green fog...) or nothing and just an inconsistency...

And anyway small planes are just better. Deal with it. :)

OB1
Yeah when you make up pretend laws and boundaries for fictional characters you have to stick to them. You can't suddenly make Mario as fast as Sonic without the aid of some power-up, for instance.

Great Rumbler
You guys just have no imagination, that's you're problem.

lazyfatbum
OB1 you sad simple man.

Kazooie is much faster than the planes in DKR. Kazooie can dive bomb and boost plus the fact that she can carry a fat bear while doing so. in Donkey Kong Racing, you flew on Buzzers from DKC, thorned, stinging Buzzers. Your lack of imagination is palpable. Kazooie can be as fast or slow as she wants to be, Mario can wear a cape in one game and then become a racoon in another, it's not being inconsistent, it's taking new directions to apply the same characters in to new gameplay. You pitiful excuse for a gameplayer. Go soak your head.

OB1
Lazy, you sir are a huge dumbass, a dumbass who rivals even the great nickdaddyg in terms of dumbassnitude. Your way of thinking is completely devoid of imagination as you don't even try to come up with an excuse for inconsistencies. I could say that Kazooie could be wearing a magical pixie speed hat which would enable her to fly much faster than she usually does. I could say that, but it would still be dumb. And the dive bombs and boosts that kazooie demonstrated in the Banjo games are only short bursts of power that only give you a short burst in a straight line. I certainly wouldn't want to race around a track like that. The planes in DKR are much faster than Kazooie.

Mario uses powerups to fly or become invincible, he cannot do these things any other way. You don't see Miyamoto suddenly turning Mario into a flying speed demon without the aid of a powerup because it would be dumb and wouldn't make sense, even in a world full of talking mushrooms and flying turtles. You could come up with some reason for Kazooie to fly twenty times faster than she usually does, but it would be pointless when you can just give Banjo a damn jet.

Great Rumbler
I seriously cannot even believe we're having this arguement.

OB1
That is the charm of Tendo City for ya.

Great Rumbler
Soilent Green is people!! People, I tell you!!! PEOPLE!!!!!

A Black Falcon
Actually, I'd say that Mario changes speeds! Just look at various Mario games... his top run speed is not the same, I'd say... no, seriously... :)

Dark Jaguar
Besides that OB1, training is the cure-all in Japan for new abilities! Seriously, the only excuse they need to make any character super fast is that they TRAINED in 100 times gravity or something, and Japanese people will eat it up as perfectly natural!

However, WHO CARES?! Mario Kart doesn't even make sense within the context of the Mario universe! There's NO reason Mario and Bowser would just race without Bowser suddenly getting OUT of his kart and trying to KILL Mario and kidnap the princess in the main story (did I just refer to the "main story" of Mario? Dear Alvis that's messed up.) Most of the racers in the game have no real motivation for being like that, and turtle shells NEVER had homing abilities before, nor was there EVER a lightning strike that shrunk you, and mushrooms never gave Mario a speed boost! You see OB1? You are being a moron here and exemplifying total lack of any sort of desire for CHANGE. Even GR is shocked you are arguing against how cool it would be to race on a broomstick or Kazooie. Who cares if Kazooie is moderatly slow? Unless her TRADEMARK is being a slow character, it doesn't screw up JACK. Just LOVE it like you KNOW you want to, deep down, but keep bottled up.

A Black Falcon
They are items, DJ. Items. I could make the same arguement about items in any Mario game. Items aren't characters... it's not just a shell, it's a specially modified homing shell...

Oh, but my point about Mario's speed was semi-serious. What I mean is that if it's so bad to change characters, why does Mario not always run as fast as he does in the first game... or how about that speed in the third one? Okay, comparisons to the 3d Mario are really hard, but he sure doesn't seem that fast in the GB games... especially the second...

Dark Jaguar
Yes you could make that argument, and that's my point really, and I already pointed out the characters are totally, well, out of character in Mario Kart.

Captain Falcon never had any of those moves before SSB, and Kirby doesn't have his moves unless he actually eats an enemy, but they gave those characters those moves anyway, because it works and is COOL!

A Black Falcon
Captain Falcon doesn't walk in the other games. :)

As for Kirby, they butchered him! SSB was before Kirby 64, after all... that's where this evil of 'limited flight' started...

OB1
DJ, you are a fucking moron. I think I've said that before, and I'm sure I'll say it many times in the future. Just thought I'd mention that in case you forgot that you are fucking moron. Wouldn't want that to happen.

None of the Nintendo party/racing/fighting games contradict the abilities or limits of the characters. Mario still runs about the same speed, and all of the characters have the same limits that they've always had. Your mushroom example is a very poor one; who's to say that mushrooms can't have a different effect on vehicles? Like ABF said, Captain Falcon never walked in the F-Zero games. Just because Kirby gains powers in a different way doesn't change the fact that he can gain new abilities. Making Kazooie as fast a jet would be ridiculous unless they took the time to explain why she's so much faster than before. Like I said, it would be dumb and pointless. Much like your posts.

Sacred Jellybean
I'm so glad to have OB1 around to tell us when our opinions are wrong.

lazyfatbum
Hahahaha!! Every time OB1 posts, I feel smarter

Dark Jaguar
I've thought OB1 was wrong before, but this time it's just painfully obvious.

OB1, you KNOW you are wrong but just don't want to admit it don't you? Or, are you playing some sort of joke? I know you can't actually be thinking that.

OB1
Hahahaha!! Every time OB1 posts, I feel smarter


Hahaha, you know I'm right which is why you cannot come up with a decent rebuttal. :shakeit:

I've thought OB1 was wrong before, but this time it's just painfully obvious.

OB1, you KNOW you are wrong but just don't want to admit it don't you? Or, are you playing some sort of joke? I know you can't actually be thinking that.


It's funny how I'm the only one giving good reasons for my point of view while you guys are merely going "Haha" and "you are wrong". I must say DJ, your debating skills are unmatched. I love it how you can take my points and rip them to pieces wi-- oh wait, you didn't do that. Wow, what a surprise.

I'm so glad to have OB1 around to tell us when our opinions are wrong.


If you're going to get into a super-nerdy debate about video game characters, you better have something to back up your arguments. But yes it is especially fun to prove DJ wrong, no matter how stupid the debate is.

lazyfatbum
We *already* proved you wrong, many many times in this thread. However, you keep on telling yourself that you're right when YOU haven't given a single reason to prove that you are.

A fictional character can be WHATEVER the game designer wants it to be. Yoshi's abilities can change depending on the game, as can Link's, Mario's and yes, even Banjo. Who, for example, in Banjo Pilot, is flying a PLANE which never existed at any time in any Banjo Game! It was from a RACING game: eg: a new gameplay element using existing characters. Why couldn't Conker get out of his car and use his frying pan or twirly tail? why couldn't Banjo shoot eggs at other players? it's called marketablity. If BANJO is in a game, one would assume that KAZOOIE should be around. But she wasn't even mentioned in DKR since it wasn't just about Banjo, it was about a cast of many different characters that all had to convert to a singular playing paradigm. But Banjo Pilot has the ability to borrow from the BK games heavily since the entire game is based on the B~K universe to which it would be a logical leap to ask why Banjo rides in a plane instead of using Kazooie who would act exactly like the plane but have the sprites to make it look like Kazooie.

You haven't proved or disproved a single thing, except that you enjoy arguing especially when there's nothing to argue about.

OB1
We *already* proved you wrong, many many times in this thread. However, you keep on telling yourself that you're right when YOU haven't given a single reason to prove that you are.
Saying cock and penis isn't proving me wrong, lazy. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

A fictional character can be WHATEVER the game designer wants it to be. Yoshi's abilities can change depending on the game, as can Link's, Mario's and yes, even Banjo. Who, for example, in Banjo Pilot, is flying a PLANE which never existed at any time in any Banjo Game! It was from a RACING game: eg: a new gameplay element using existing characters.
Adding a new item or vehicle does not change the character at all. Banjo's abilities did not change from B-K to DKR. Adding new abilities by way of items or powerups and changing inherent abilities are two very different things, a fact that you and DJ seem to have a lot of trouble grasping.
Why couldn't Conker get out of his car and use his frying pan or twirly tail?
Because his flying is not very fast, just like Kazooie.
why couldn't Banjo shoot eggs at other players?
Because Banjo doesn't shoot eggs, Kazooie does. And in a race you have to play under certain rules.
it's called marketablity. If BANJO is in a game, one would assume that KAZOOIE should be around. But she wasn't even mentioned in DKR since it wasn't just about Banjo, it was about a cast of many different characters that all had to convert to a singular playing paradigm. But Banjo Pilot has the ability to borrow from the BK games heavily since the entire game is based on the B~K universe to which it would be a logical leap to ask why Banjo rides in a plane instead of using Kazooie who would act exactly like the plane but have the sprites to make it look like Kazooie.
Why would you want to do that? If she flies exactly like the plain (which would completely change the character) then where is the advantage? It makes more sense for Banjo to fly a plane, which is why Rare chose to do that.

You haven't proved or disproved a single thing, except that you enjoy arguing especially when there's nothing to argue about.


I completely diproved everything you and DJ said, you just close your ears and eyes and go "NYANEE NYANEE NYA NYAAA!".

Great Rumbler
What exactly are we trying to prove here? Wether or not a fictional bird can fly as fast as a tiny airplane in a game where a bear races against witches and voodoo priests?

lazyfatbum
You're arguing my points with my... other... points.

If you want to know why Banjo Pilot uses planes instead of animals and creatures, it's because a color-swapped plane consisting of a few sprites is much easier and cheaper to produce than more detailed sprites with animation. It could also be a memory issue. But the fact remains that Rare was already making a racing game where you ride on animals and chose to use the DKR planes for this GBA game. My input was simply that the animals would have been cooler than the planes. Your point is that the animals would be out of character, so please explain to me how using planes is in character rather than Banjo using Kazooie or Grunty using her broom.

Keep in mind that at this point, Iím only instigating you to see if you can form some kind of rebuttal to the above statement coherently and with purpose. If you can legitimately prove that the planes being used are more in-line with the Banjo~Kazooie universe than the actual characters themselves, I will accept that you are right and I am wrong. I'm being completely serious, no name-calling or the like; I want to hear your real opinions.

OB1
Using animals would not be out of character, rather it's the animals you are suggesting that would be. I liked the idea of Donkey Kong Racing but would not want to see Banjo flying slow Kazooie while DK gets to ride a super fast ostrich. To make the game balanced, however, you would need to make all of the animals about the same speed. Using planes in Banjo Pilot instead of birds or broomsticks will make it so that every character has an equal chance of winning. Certainly Grunty could whup Banjo's ass if he had to race her with little, slow Kazooie. There's nothing out of character with Banjo and co. flying planes in a race. All of the Nintendo sports and party games make very little sense in terms of plot, but it still works. Why is Bowser racing against Mario? Why is Samus fighting Link when they exist in different times and places? That aspect does not matter, as the reason is to make fun games where the last thing you thing about is story and continuity. However, they don't violate any of the characters abilities and limits. Samus jumps the same, Mario jumps the same, they all have their signature moves, and those that have never been shown fighting before (Captain Falcon) can be dealt with in any way. All of the minor tweaking here and there (mainly Kirby) are still believable. Of course all of these characters and worlds are fictional, but there has to be maintained a certain level of believability and boundaries within these fictional universes. If you establish that Mario dies or gets severely injured whenever he touches lava, you can't just have him swimming through it in another game, UNLESS you give him some sort of power-up that makes sense, like a metal skin or something.

This isn't crap I just made up, believe it or not I'm not quite that much of a dork. This is logic spewed forth from the likes of Chuck Jones, Shigeru Miyamoto, and Stan Lee. And it certainly makes a lot of sense.

Dark Jaguar
Honestly OB1, why are you arguing this? The bree bird is not known for her LACK of speed, just her flying. Why would it be SO wrong to make her super fast and yet at the same time perfectly natural to slap them in flying planes? Donkey Kong was riding on Rambi who is just as slow as kazooie in DK's games, but he was REALLY fast there. You saying there's a massive difference? No, don't even bother saying "but Rambi could use a super burst" because we tried pointing out that the bree bird could do the same thing and you didn't like THAT idea. You completely ignored my whole Kirby point, which was that Kirby already HAS the ability to turn to stone, AND do the cutter, AND all that, without even having to eat enemies to temporarily gain it. The fact that Kirby only gets his powers after eating an enemy, not just naturally having them from the start, is RIGHT there a part of Kirbyosity. And Ness didn't HAVE a lot of his abilities until they dumped them on him. Falcon had not one super power until SSB. They just added those out of the big blue.

Face it OB1, they do this stuff ALL the time, in FAR more inconsistent ways, and your little arguments that the bree bird is not race car fast, just MODERATLY fast, are just plain idiotic. LET them do this stuff to their characters! *Plays Super Mario Sunshine with super jetpack ultra fast water squirting Mario action and doesn't care that it's an item or part of his body because that doesn't even matter.*

OB1, you KNOW you are wrong deep down, and you KNOW you would totally love to ride on kazooie, using her like some sort of glider in your backpack, in some race given half a chance. Give up!

Dark Jaguar
And again, why is adding some speed to kazooie SO against her limits and abilities? They LEARN NEW STUFF LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME from a FRICKIN' MOLE (or "ground rat") ALL THE TIME! Their abilities and limits constantly changed! Hey, Mario is loosing and gaining abilities ALL THE TIME WITHOUT ITEMS AT ALL. Suddenly, the jumper can PUNCH out of nowhere! He's not a martial arts expert! There WERE lots of things changed in SSB. Link is an amalgam of all previous Links. That's not believable at all. You see, if you respond saying "I already pointed out story is irrelevent", then you are being a moron. First off, just because you say it from nowhere doesn't mean we must believe it, second off, THAT'S EXACTLY OUR POINT. We agree with that! It EXTENDS TO ABILITIES TOO THOUGH! If something as major as story can be tossed out, why not abilities? Those aren't more critical than the story of the characters! The gameplay is all that matters! So long as they play in ways that make you think "oh yeah, this is totally that character" then it's fine! And flying with kazooie at top speed WOULD make you do that!

YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE!

OB1
Honestly OB1, why are you arguing this?
Because this is a video game board and that is what we do.
The bree bird is not known for her LACK of speed, just her flying. Why would it be SO wrong to make her super fast and yet at the same time perfectly natural to slap them in flying planes? Donkey Kong was riding on Rambi who is just as slow as kazooie in DK's games, but he was REALLY fast there. You saying there's a massive difference? No, don't even bother saying "but Rambi could use a super burst" because we tried pointing out that the bree bird could do the same thing and you didn't like THAT idea.
I don't care what the real life bird is known for, as the fact remains that Kazooie is a very slow flyer in both Banjo games. Not only would making her as fast as a jet without some sort of power-up be very dumb, but making her fly like a plane instead of a bird would be even worse. She would have to flap her wings constantly and then slowly glide downwards, which is nothing like a plane. Part of the challenge of racing games is the difficulty of piloting your fast craft, and Kazooie is extremely easy to "pilot".
Rambi? You mean the rhino? The rhino was plenty fast in DK, and since it's not just one particular character it's easy to imagine one being faster than the others.
You completely ignored my whole Kirby point, which was that Kirby already HAS the ability to turn to stone, AND do the cutter, AND all that, without even having to eat enemies to temporarily gain it. The fact that Kirby only gets his powers after eating an enemy, not just naturally having them from the start, is RIGHT there a part of Kirbyosity. And Ness didn't HAVE a lot of his abilities until they dumped them on him. Falcon had not one super power until SSB. They just added those out of the big blue.
It doesn't matter all that much if Kirby was able to perform certain moves without eating an enemy as all that was changed was the manner in which he was able to perform those moves. Same thing goes for Ness. Your Falcon point shows just how laughable your argument is as Falcon never stepped out of his vehicle until SSB, so there's no way for you to know if he did or did not have those powers.
Face it OB1, they do this stuff ALL the time, in FAR more inconsistent ways, and your little arguments that the bree bird is not race car fast, just MODERATLY fast, are just plain idiotic. LET them do this stuff to their characters! *Plays Super Mario Sunshine with super jetpack ultra fast water squirting Mario action and doesn't care that it's an item or part of his body because that doesn't even matter.*

OB1, you KNOW you are wrong deep down, and you KNOW you would totally love to ride on kazooie, using her like some sort of glider in your backpack, in some race given half a chance. Give up!


I'm sorry DJ, but as per usual all of your points in this argument are a complete joke. I have presented logic and reason while you have done little more than complain about me being in this debate and say how I "KNOW" that I'm wrong. Very, very poor debating skills. FACE IT, girl, you've lost.

And again, why is adding some speed to kazooie SO against her limits and abilities? They LEARN NEW STUFF LIKE THAT ALL THE TIME from a FRICKIN' MOLE (or "ground rat") ALL THE TIME! Their abilities and limits constantly changed! Hey, Mario is loosing and gaining abilities ALL THE TIME WITHOUT ITEMS AT ALL.


Yes but she didn't gain super speed in any of the games, so it was never established. I already said that you could make kazooie fly really fast and totally not like a bird with some crazy power-up or special item, but it would be much more pointless than just substituting her with a plane.

Dark Jaguar
Oh for the love of... listen to yourself! You think you are the only one being reasonable, but all you do is use OUR OWN POINTS against yourself and think that makes you the winner! I can just imagine you in a loosing fight saying things like "Hah, I am bleeding, thus making me the victor! Watch my groin to your foot technique!".

First off, I was just calling Kazooie a bree bird for fun, not calling attention to the real thing. More than one Rambi? Reading the instructions only gave me the idea there's JUST one Rambi. Kazooie can be plenty fast and keep the wing beats the same as usual. They don't NEED to be humming bird fast to look just perfect. I'm imagining it right now, and it looks just fine! There's NOTHING unreasonable about it!

You said "yes, but that's because they are taken into the context of that world and it's changed to fit it" WHICH IS OUR POINT, and then you say "well, one trademark ability, like how Kirby gets the moves, doesn't matter, but the OTHER part, how it's used, does". That's just asinine, and you know it!

Yeesh, each and every one of my points is still perfectly intact! You debated them WITH EACH OTHER, JUST LIKE LAZY SAID!

OB1
Why can't you people write something without having to add in an extra five sentences five minutes later? Make it another post, dummy!

Suddenly, the jumper can PUNCH out of nowhere! He's not a martial arts expert! There WERE lots of things changed in SSB. Link is an amalgam of all previous Links. That's not believable at all. You see, if you respond saying "I already pointed out story is irrelevent", then you are being a moron. First off, just because you say it from nowhere doesn't mean we must believe it, second off, THAT'S EXACTLY OUR POINT. We agree with that! It EXTENDS TO ABILITIES TOO THOUGH! If something as major as story can be tossed out, why not abilities? Those aren't more critical than the story of the characters! The gameplay is all that matters! So long as they play in ways that make you think "oh yeah, this is totally that character" then it's fine! And flying with kazooie at top speed WOULD make you do that!

YOU KNOW IT TO BE TRUE!


No, the characters are much more important than the story when it has been established that the story is unimportant. Bugs Bunny can be in a western one minute and a space adventure the next because the story doesn't matter. But you will not see Bugs suddenly becoming as fast as the Road Runner because that would completely change his character. You can add minor changes here and there, but major ones like that would be wrong. Now, you can make him very fast by showing him being fitted with biomechanical parts ala the 60 million dollar man and then make a fun cartoon about that, but you can't just have his character fundamentally changed with no explanation whatsoever.

OB1
Oh for the love of... listen to yourself! You think you are the only one being reasonable, but all you do is use OUR OWN POINTS against yourself and think that makes you the winner! I can just imagine you in a loosing fight saying things like "Hah, I am bleeding, thus making me the victor! Watch my groin to your foot technique!".
That makes no sense at all, and you don't even try to explain what you're saying. How am I using your own points against me? Learn how to debate, DJ.

First off, I was just calling Kazooie a bree bird for fun, not calling attention to the real thing. More than one Rambi? Reading the instructions only gave me the idea there's JUST one Rambi. Kazooie can be plenty fast and keep the wing beats the same as usual. They don't NEED to be humming bird fast to look just perfect. I'm imagining it right now, and it looks just fine! There's NOTHING unreasonable about it!
Yes there is, but I do not expect you to understand since this is obviously a concept far beyond your level of comprehension.

You said "yes, but that's because they are taken into the context of that world and it's changed to fit it" WHICH IS OUR POINT, and then you say "well, one trademark ability, like how Kirby gets the moves, doesn't matter, but the OTHER part, how it's used, does". That's just asinine, and you know it!
No, you are not listening to what I am saying. Remove that colossal ego for one moment and think about what I am saying. The changes made to Kirby in SSB are not major ones as he still has the same abilities. For example, if you were to have Kazooie playable in the game and you didn't have to walk into blue eggs in order to shoot them out of your ass, it wouldn't matter since she is doing what she has always done. That is not a change to her abilities. Making her fly as fast and just like a jet most certainly would be.
Yeesh, each and every one of my points is still perfectly intact! You debated them WITH EACH OTHER, JUST LIKE LAZY SAID!


I completely ripped apart your points. And there's nothing contradictory about my points if you have enough intelligence to understand them.

Dark Jaguar
Sure you can, and they did! Bugs Bunny suddenly gets super abilites FROM NO WHERE because he's frickin' Bugs Bunny in LOONEY TOONS! He suddenly gets the ability to fly via his ears for instance, never seen before that cartoon, but he does it. And why are we arguing this? Honestly, Bugs Bunny and the Banjo universe are similar in that they are absurd.

Face it OB1, you are being too stubborn to see how ridiculous you are being. Why can't you admit that?

OB1
Sure you can, and they did! Bugs Bunny suddenly gets super abilites FROM NO WHERE because he's frickin' Bugs Bunny in LOONEY TOONS! He suddenly gets the ability to fly via his ears for instance, never seen before that cartoon, but he does it. And why are we arguing this? Honestly, Bugs Bunny and the Banjo universe are similar in that they are absurd.
Flying with his ears is not out of character for Bugs because it is in line with Loony Toons physics (seriously) and uses his pre-existing ears to do something that makes perfect sense in that world.
I know, this may sound absurd, but there is actual cartoon logic here. I don't expect you to understand it immediately, but what I'm saying is true.
Face it OB1, you are being too stubborn to see how ridiculous you are being. Why can't you admit that?


WOW. Again and again you amaze me with your incredible debating skills. I never knew how effective repeating over and over again "Face it, you know you're wrong" was! It's just so convicing! By golly, you proved me wrong alright!

I applaud your debating skills, DJ! :clap:

Great Rumbler
Well, what if they added a story element where Banjo and Kazooie find a super-feather power-up that enables Kazooie to fly fast and that's why they decide to have a race?

OB1
Fly fast and like a plane (remember that you increase speed by flying upwards)? Sure, they could do that. But I still think it would be pretty dumb and pointless for a racing game.

Great Rumbler
*sigh* Why didn't you just say so from the start?

lazyfatbum
Okay, so you're saying that it's extremely important to stay within certain boundaries to help the game player have a familiar relationship with the character. Just as you said, we are comfortable that Mario canít go in lava, but that Shadowman does it all the time with his mystic tattoos. We fully comprehend that Mythril is unbreakable and that fairies live for thousands of years and only die if they're never loved or that a Ring can destroy the world. We accept these things because they are presented to us. Link looks like Leonardo Dicaprio and fights a huge demon/Balrog Ganon in the ruins of Ganon's tower... or he's a small ninja-midget that fights along side Tetra (who is related to Zelda) under a waterfall (which is underwater) on top of Hyrule Castle where Link shoves the Master Sword in to Ganondorf's head and he then becomes a statue and.... oh wait then he's on an imaginary island where he fights a Nightmare in the Windfish's egg oh but now he's in an underground lair of lava people... you get my point. Realistic universe... stylized artistic universe... one with pirate music everywhere. Totally inconsistent, even alienating Zelda fans, but it is now accepted because that is what we are presented with.

Video games are based on the principal, as you said, to present rules and guidelines and then take you on a journey of learning how to bend and break those guide lines.

If you fall you die.

But you can turn back time.

This chasm is way too large for you to jump.

So learn how to fly.

It's a very traditional principal in video games especially because it makes the game player feel like he's apart of something even more real then his imagination first thought it was since he is now applying real world knowledge and game rules and guide lines to venture forward.

Do you agree with me so far?

Mario, before the analogue stick, had a 'Run' button which you can press to go faster, its how we flew in Mario 3. In Mario 64 there was no need for a run button because of the analogue stick which would let the player control the speed in many different variations based on preference. You could fly here too, in 3-D. But instead of gaining speed to fly, you simply jumped 3 times. In the first B~K the ability of flight had to be found and earned by collecting Red feathers. In Banjo~Tooie you begin the game with the ability to fly and even let Kazooie fly on her own without holding Banjo. When she did this, she was much faster and agile, you didn't even need red feathers to fly if was just Kazooie. You could even swim like a torpedo and run super fast, even jump higher than Banjo. All of these new and interesting moves... that completely changed the entire concept of Banjo~Kazooie. Kazooie had evolved in to something else, as did Banjo who gained a new list of moves on top of the ones he already had. Let's say a Banjo~Threeie was still coming out for Gamecube. Can you imagine what new abilities the bear and bird would have? It would evolve again, breaking old boundaries and creating new ones, forming new gameplay mechanics. Perhaps you would see a Mecha B~K that Grunty made to combat you, a robot Banjo with a jet-powered Kazooie.

In DKR, the vehicles, specifically the planes in DKR were not fast at all. In fact, all 'kart' racing games are pretty slow since they delegate so much of the gameplay to strategic turns and weapon use. If in Banjo Pilot, Banjo would be riding on Kazooie you would simply accept it as something new and interesting and borrowed. Kazooie could gain boosts and use different eggs as missiles, she could even hypothetically ground herself and run while carrying Banjo still maintaining her top speed and in fact, be comparatively exact to a character using a plane perhaps even more so; She could perform all the same moves, etc. And you would have no issue with Banjo riding Kazooie. Just as you donít have an issue with Shadowman not being able to use a shotgun in Deadside or use the Flambeau in live side, or Samus gets a space jump that only allows two consecutive jumps. It may be hard to accept at first but it will quickly integrate itself in to the game you are playing. As there isn't a single point in Metroid Prime where a real space jump would be advantageous over double jumping. You have no problem with playing Mario Sunshine and see that Mario can no longer fly when he did so in 3 consecutive games. In fact, if Banjo Pilot came out and all the characters were riding Jinjos you might say it's gay, but it wouldn't effect the gameplay at all since the Jinjos would move and react exactly as the planes do in DKR; Same speed, same attributes, they just look like Jinjos.

So ultimately, my point is very simple. The ideal of planes was fine for a game that has Diddy and Conker and Banjo in the same game. But a game based solely on ONE universe should borrow heavily from that universe in its conceptualized design. So in fact, by having Banjo race using Kazooie against Grunty who uses her broom and Mumbo Jumbo who flies on an Aztec statue of a bat and Humba Wumba riding a War Painted Eagle while Klungo rides a flying machine - all of them the same speed and same attributes as each other, except for the obvious counter measures, smaller character means lower top speed but better turning, larger character means high top speed but harder to turn, and all that jazz would be a better design that simply using planes which have nothing to do at all with any part of the B~K universe at all. Even if Banjo rode on the Washing Machine, it would add to the already compelling fantasy and humor of the game that is based on the variables and imagination presented in cartoons and would be more welcomed to the design of the game more so than a plane, as it was something actually presented as a joke in the first game.

I anxiously await your reply.

OB1
*sigh* Why didn't you just say so from the start?


Uh, I did say that from the start, as well as several other times since then. You're just not paying attention. :D

I said that and then lazy and DJ went all crazy and lazy yelled about penises and DJ yelled about how wrong I know I am, etc. It's a never-ending cycle.

Dark Jaguar
And ALSO we made very valid points, though lazy's points ARE in fact more important than mine. Honestly, Zelda 2 completely changed the entire way Link acted and played, yet we all excepted it (most of us) because really, that's exactly what we WANTED, something new and different! Your "rules and such" in Looney Toons are just plain silly, as is that show. With something like that, there ARE no limits. They can take it as far as they want, so long as they don't cuss or have excessive blood and gore, and it's fine. Bugs Bunny can run along in a chase scene, SUDDENLY do a weird dance that he's never done before WHILE running along, and then out of nowhere divide in two underwater around a rock somehow, and we all except it even though we never saw the show QUITE break the laws of physics like that before, because it's funny! You are right, they do that because it falls within the show's limits. The limits being "nothing at all". However, limits can be vastly expanded. The fact that it's an item rather than a part of the person's body is completely and utterly irrelevent, and you need to understand that to get our point.

OB1
Okay, so you're saying that it's extremely important to stay within certain boundaries to help the game player have a familiar relationship with the character. Just as you said, we are comfortable that Mario canít go in lava, but that Shadowman does it all the time with his mystic tattoos. We fully comprehend that Mythril is unbreakable and that fairies live for thousands of years and only die if they're never loved or that a Ring can destroy the world. We accept these things because they are presented to us. Link looks like Leonardo Dicaprio and fights a huge demon/Balrog Ganon in the ruins of Ganon's tower... or he's a small ninja-midget that fights along side Tetra (who is related to Zelda) under a waterfall (which is underwater) on top of Hyrule Castle where Link shoves the Master Sword in to Ganondorf's head and he then becomes a statue and.... oh wait then he's on an imaginary island where he fights a Nightmare in the Windfish's egg oh but now he's in an underground lair of lava people... you get my point. Realistic universe... stylized artistic universe... one with pirate music everywhere. Totally inconsistent, even alienating Zelda fans, but it is now accepted because that is what we are presented with.
No, you misunderstood me. You can make whatever crazy situation or story your imagination can come up with, but once you've established certain rules and boundaries you have to stick with them. Mario being hurt by lava and Shadowman not being hurt by lava is in no way contradictory since they are different characters existing in different fantasy worlds. And there's nothing inconsistent with Wind Waker. None of the previous games had a realistic look to them, and all of the stories are fantastical. But Link is always basically the same person. He still gets hurt the same way, he still has to gain power-ups to perform remarkable feats, etc. Nothing at all contradictory with any of that.

Video games are based on the principal, as you said, to present rules and guidelines and then take you on a journey of learning how to bend and break those guide lines.

If you fall you die.

But you can turn back time.

This chasm is way too large for you to jump.

So learn how to fly.

It's a very traditional principal in video games especially because it makes the game player feel like he's apart of something even more real then his imagination first thought it was since he is now applying real world knowledge and game rules and guide lines to venture forward.

Do you agree with me so far?
Yes, that is what I have been saying. No matter how fantastical the world may be, if you set rules and guidelines within that universe it can seem perfectly natural and realistic.

Mario, before the analogue stick, had a 'Run' button which you can press to go faster, its how we flew in Mario 3. In Mario 64 there was no need for a run button because of the analogue stick which would let the player control the speed in many different variations based on preference.
That does not change the character or contradict anything in the Mario universe. It only changes how you the player controls things.
You could fly here too, in 3-D. But instead of gaining speed to fly, you simply jumped 3 times.
That is because you used a different flying power-up which acted very different from the previous ones. Again, nothing contradictory there.
In the first B~K the ability of flight had to be found and earned by collecting Red feathers. In Banjo~Tooie you begin the game with the ability to fly and even let Kazooie fly on her own without holding Banjo.
Banjo-Tooie happens right after Banjo-Kazooie so you have all of the moves that the characters acquired in the first game. Nothing contradictory there.
When she did this, she was much faster and agile, you didn't even need red feathers to fly if was just Kazooie. You could even swim like a torpedo and run super fast, even jump higher than Banjo. All of these new and interesting moves... that completely changed the entire concept of Banjo~Kazooie.
It changed what you could do, but was in no way contradictory to what had been established in the previous game, and made perfect sense. Of course Kazooie would be faster without having to carry Banjo. That absolutely makes sense. In B-K you only controlled them as one being, so it's natural to assume that by themselves they could do different things.
Kazooie had evolved in to something else, as did Banjo who gained a new list of moves on top of the ones he already had. Let's say a Banjo~Threeie was still coming out for Gamecube. Can you imagine what new abilities the bear and bird would have? It would evolve again, breaking old boundaries and creating new ones, forming new gameplay mechanics. Perhaps you would see a Mecha B~K that Grunty made to combat you, a robot Banjo with a jet-powered Kazooie.
Yes, and you would see in the game how it would make sense, as they would learn new moves. Again, nothing contradictory.
In DKR, the vehicles, specifically the planes in DKR were not fast at all. In fact, all 'kart' racing games are pretty slow since they delegate so much of the gameplay to strategic turns and weapon use. If in Banjo Pilot, Banjo would be riding on Kazooie you would simply accept it as something new and interesting and borrowed. Kazooie could gain boosts and use different eggs as missiles, she could even hypothetically ground herself and run while carrying Banjo still maintaining her top speed and in fact, be comparatively exact to a character using a plane perhaps even more so; She could perform all the same moves, etc. And you would have no issue with Banjo riding Kazooie.
If you were to put a DKR track into B-K or B-T, it would take you much longer to race around each track than it would with any vehicle in DKR. Now like I've been saying this entire time, you could explain that Kazooie got a super feather or whatever which not only made her very fast but also fly like a plane, but what would be the point?
Just as you donít have an issue with Shadowman not being able to use a shotgun in Deadside or use the Flambeau in live side, or Samus gets a space jump that only allows two consecutive jumps. It may be hard to accept at first but it will quickly integrate itself in to the game you are playing. As there isn't a single point in Metroid Prime where a real space jump would be advantageous over double jumping.
How are those things difficult to accept? They are presented to us matter-of-factly in the games and they make sense in their respective universes. That has nothing to do with the debate at hand.
You have no problem with playing Mario Sunshine and see that Mario can no longer fly when he did so in 3 consecutive games.
Again, you have completely missed the point of this entire debate. There are no flying power-ups in Mario Sunshine, so there is absolutely nothing contradictory about Mario not being able to fly in that game. The power-ups are not a part of the characters, they are merely items which enable the characters to do amazing things. Each game has different power-ups so it is not unusual at all.
In fact, if Banjo Pilot came out and all the characters were riding Jinjos you might say it's gay, but it wouldn't effect the gameplay at all since the Jinjos would move and react exactly as the planes do in DKR; Same speed, same attributes, they just look like Jinjos.
Actually I think that would work just fine, since the jinjos showed that they could fly like planes in the Banjo series.

So ultimately, my point is very simple. The ideal of planes was fine for a game that has Diddy and Conker and Banjo in the same game. But a game based solely on ONE universe should borrow heavily from that universe in its conceptualized design. So in fact, by having Banjo race using Kazooie against Grunty who uses her broom and Mumbo Jumbo who flies on an Aztec statue of a bat and Humba Wumba riding a War Painted Eagle while Klungo rides a flying machine - all of them the same speed and same attributes as each other, except for the obvious counter measures, smaller character means lower top speed but better turning, larger character means high top speed but harder to turn, and all that jazz would be a better design that simply using planes which have nothing to do at all with any part of the B~K universe at all. Even if Banjo rode on the Washing Machine, it would add to the already compelling fantasy and humor of the game that is based on the variables and imagination presented in cartoons and would be more welcomed to the design of the game more so than a plane, as it was something actually presented as a joke in the first game.

I anxiously await your reply.
Using more imaginative vehicles than planes would be welcome, but using Kazooie as a plane would still be wrong unless they made up an excuse for her massive change of character and limitations.

OB1
And ALSO we made very valid points, though lazy's points ARE in fact more important than mine. Honestly, Zelda 2 completely changed the entire way Link acted and played, yet we all excepted it (most of us) because really, that's exactly what we WANTED, something new and different! Your "rules and such" in Looney Toons are just plain silly, as is that show. With something like that, there ARE no limits. They can take it as far as they want, so long as they don't cuss or have excessive blood and gore, and it's fine. Bugs Bunny can run along in a chase scene, SUDDENLY do a weird dance that he's never done before WHILE running along, and then out of nowhere divide in two underwater around a rock somehow, and we all except it even though we never saw the show QUITE break the laws of physics like that before, because it's funny! You are right, they do that because it falls within the show's limits. The limits being "nothing at all". However, limits can be vastly expanded. The fact that it's an item rather than a part of the person's body is completely and utterly irrelevent, and you need to understand that to get our point.
No, there are most certainly limits in the Loony Toons universe. You can read any number of intereviews with the likes of Chuck Jones where they talk in depth about that. Bugs does crazy things that are in character. Kazooie also does crazy cartoony things but she is even more restrained in her limitations than Bugs is. It was established how she flies, and it's definitely not suitable for a racing game. She flaps upwards and controls more like a helicopter than a jet.

Great Rumbler
Uh, I did say that from the start, as well as several other times since then. You're just not paying attention.\

No you didn't! Instead of saying "I don't like that because it's stupid" you tried to come up with reasons why we were wrong!!

OB1
Here's what I said last page:

You'd have to make up a reason for her flying much faster in Banjo Pilot, which would be dumb.

And you babies cried about it and made a huge debate of it. So huge, and so incredibly stupid, that it surpasses anything I have debated ABF on. Seriously.

Dark Jaguar
You act like it's a TOTAL contradiciton, but as I've said, she is NOT known for being slow, she's known for being able to FLY, and that's IT, so no matter what they change about how she flies, it's still within how people know her. So long as she uses her wings, it doesn't matter.

For that matter, concerning limitations and abilities, SSB again. Link and Samus should NOT be on even footing, but they are PUT on even footing and we totally accept it, because we just want to have FUN, not analyze everything to the nth degree. So what if TECHNICALLY a cheap metal and wood shield could never actually protect against a missile, or a bow being no match for an energy gun. It's all in good fun!

lazyfatbum
OB1 you seem to be agreeing with me but you act like the debate is still going on. You agree that Jinjos would be okay since they can fly like planes. Kazooie can also fly like a plane (or more like a hang glider) yet you wouldn't want to see her in a video game as a... flying vehicle... which she already is?

Then you say that you have no problem with being presented with a new controller setup or guide lines of controlling and using that character, and yet you disregard the idea of Kazooie being used in racing game? Why is it okay for Banjo and not Kazooie? Then again, you say that if the game presents the idea in a way that makes sense to the gameplayer, you can COMPLETELY alter the consistency (as with the Prime space jump boots) and it will be okay, because the game made it out that way? How was the Prime Space Jump presented to you matter-of-factly? It simply exists with the name of old power up that does something completely different. In essence, it's a totally new power up... yet it reuses the old name. While in Metroid Fusion, the Space Jump exists there as well but you can jump in to flight. It also exists in Zero Mission and allows you jump in to flight. Yet in Prime, it is completely different without any explanation... and you're okay with that?

This is confusing me... you say that if you put a DKR track in a B~K game... it would take you longer to race through it... I donít understand... how do you know that? Is the gravity different in B~K as compared to DKR? Since, Iím assuming you know, the in-game conversion of inches to feet is the same ratio in most Rare games, it's only the dimensions that change. Banjo at full speed will cover the same amount of ground as a DKR kart in the same amount of time. It only feels faster because one, the tracks in DKR are much smaller than any of the world's in either B~K game and the character models (in their vehicles) are larger than Banjo. This was done so that Rare could test out their new skinning method, where an entire texture map is wrapped around a skeleton, hence why the characters in DKR look seamless. In Goldeneye and Perfeck Dark, the textures and the poly models are huge to create scope and physical resonance, the props and sets are virtually 'life size' in terms of inches to feet. But Joanna will cover the same amount of ground as Banjo would or as the DKR hovercraft would in the same amount of time, if you could convert their scales (essentially making them all the same 'size').

You say that since we weren't presented with powerups that would allow flight in Mario Sunshine, it's not contradictory even though the past 3 games (spanning several years... a decade or more) allowed you to fly. However if I reverse the situation and present you with a game where an established character does something completely new and has never done it before, it would be... contradictory? We're not even talking about a completely new ability either... it's what Kazooie does best; Carry Banjo around and give him flight.

Then finally (Iíll stop it here because there are way too many directions to take this argument for me to prove my points), you say you have no problem with Jinjos acting like airplanes. I'm glad you walked in to this one, Jinjos never flied at any point in either B~K game. In fact, they stood still, silent (occasionally whistling and yelling 'over here!') until you touched them where upon they would be 'freed' and would disappear. The only "flight" they had, are when they were disappearing they encircled Banjo and yelled 'Jinjo!'. They would float, Iíll give you that, but they floated in the air just as any other item would when you grab it. Now it is true that at the end of B~K you had to 'fire' Jinjos like rockets at Grunty, but there is obviously no controlled flight (since you had to aim them) and they can only move through the air in short bursts. And yet knowing this (Iím assuming you played both games) you still state that Jinjos would make a better candidate for replacing the plane for Banjo in Banjo Pilot rather than Kazooie, who can not only move in short bursts but could also do barrel rolls, glide infinitely, dive and climb at break-neck speeds and do all of this while carrying a 250 pound bear. Now which is more contradicting?

Let me give you an example of how it would work.

The race is starting, the words "Get Ready!" appear on the screen and we know from DKR that you press the gas when the "get Ready" is almost completely invisible. You do so and Kazooie yells out "BREEEE!" and you're off in a whirl of red feathers. Banjo gives out his trademark "Duh-huh!" as the speed boost dies down and you regain control of Kazooie. You're moving down a straight away now and Kazooie is gliding, occasionally flapping her arms. In front of you, you see a fence and you need to nose up before you hit the wall. Nosing up, you bring Kazooie's head and shoulders up to air brake but you donít MOVE up. You need to climb, so you tap your gas button and Kazooie thrusts her wings up and down once. A glittering red feather falls from her butt. But this is only an animation since you donít actually grab red feathers in the game to continue youíre climbing. The animation of the red feather falling is only there to make reference to other B~K games. A moment of "Oh I remember that!" like all great Nintendo games that are heavily basted in memorabilia and to evoke a sense of tradition over time.

As you climb upwards you see the feathers fall and you have cleared the fence with ease. Kazooie maintains her speed and height and glides effortlessly, allowing the player to focus on firing eggs from Kazooie's mouth at any racers that may have gotten ahead of them. A simple targeting 'scope' or reticule is used to show you the path that the fired egg will take. As you take a mild turn, tapping your air or holding down your brakes to turn even more in either direction, you reach another wall; but this time there is a cave directly beneath the wall. You nose down and hold the gas button down causing Kazooie to bring her wings in. She is now a missile and falls straight down - But before you hit the bottom of the cave, you let go of the gas button and nose up, making Kazooie's wings stretch out and giving you a parachute to slow yourself down to a controllable speed.

A racer is directly behind you, and you have egg ammo to spare. Once you clear the cave you double tap the air brakes while nosing up. Kazooie lets out a gagging "Kaw!" from the jolt and thrusts her wings downward shooting her straight up and then retracts them for a split second to fall backwards. Now you are behind the racer who was behind you and you have performed a loop. You quickly take aim by holding down the fire button (let's say, in the case of this game being on the GBA, firing weapons will be done by using the select button), which allows you to home in on your target, and release. Successfully shooting down the other racer briefly, but enough to get you more distance between you and the other racer.

As you can see the idea works fine, in theory. And it would have worked in Banjo Pilot except for the memory issues. All those extra animations and sound effects would have bogged down the memory so the idea of a much more simple plane was used that can be color swapped for each racing character.

There is absolutely no point in continuing this debate unless you can provide some kind of concrete angle on it. All of the points that you made were contradictory and had no purpose, in fact, even without knowing your character as a person who likes to argue over anything, I would have to say that by your posts in this thread alone I would have believed you to be that way. You said time and again that being presented with a completely new idea doesn't bother you. You said that a character of extreme limitations would still be a good candidate for controlled flight in a racing genre. You said that if the new idea is presented to you logically, you will completely accept it (Prime space jump) and basically... you agreed with everything I said, and yet you still want to argue. I do not understand at all.

lazyfatbum
I totally agree with you DJ. While it is true that concepts need to stay in some kind of guide lines, those guide lines are constantly blurred and played with... since that's what they're there for. I dont understand OB1's obsession with characters (especially characters based in a cartoon universe) needing to be so grounded and limited. Last time I looked, Mario could do anything, even become metal or invisible or become a star, or touch a flower made of fire which would somehow give him the ability to shoot fire from his hands. Not to mention the fact that he's a small overweight man that can jump 100 feet in the air, dive to the ocean depths and surface without being depressurized, fall from MILES above the earth and hit the ground unscathed, recieves health from coins, can become a helicopter by simply holding his arms out and about a billion other things that make absolutely no sense and change with every game, even to the point of completely shattering all of the previous abilities in return for new ones with no reasoning other than 'this is how Mario is in THIS game'. I dont understand why the same ideal cant be applied to other characters as well, especially cartoon oriented designs who find their way in to multiple genres such as 3-D platform and racing.

Just between me and you, I feel like OB1 is desperate to prove a point that he doesn't agree with himself. When he plays the next Mario game and Mario suddenly has the ability to move things with his mind, it would be very interesting to see how he takes it.

Dark Jaguar
One last thing, concerning my blatent insults and "you know I'm right" statement. You are totally right, those are terrible argument methods, in fact just insults plain and simple. Seems I shouldn't have done that though. Anyway, believe it or not a point was made. I essentially was doing EXACTLY what you do VERY often in debates. That is, you constantly claim that everyone knows you are right, or that the other person is being too stubborn to admit it, and do all sorts of shoutings of "moron!". When it's done to YOU, you see exactly how stupid and pointless it is. However, you didn't acknowledge that you do the same thing all the time. ABF himself has stated EXACTLY what you said. "Oh yeah, shouting "you are wrong" sure does prove you right..." ring a bell? Honestly OB1, it's like it's fine when YOU do it, but not when anyone else does it. It's wrong no matter who does it. I guess I'm saying sorry about doing that to you. Also, keep in mind you shouldn't do that either.

lazy, we seemed to have taken different directions in our arguments, though yours I believe was more valid. My main argument was that it WAS totally within character for her to do it, and yours was that it didn't matter because they change them all the time, and then eventually it all blended together into the same amalgament. Anyway, yes I totally agree that OB1, deep down, knows he agrees with us, but is likely being a "devil's advocate" or something... in the most ass way possible.

OB1
DJ/ I've already addressed your points and will not repeat myself again.
OB1 you seem to be agreeing with me but you act like the debate is still going on. You agree that Jinjos would be okay since they can fly like planes. Kazooie can also fly like a plane (or more like a hang glider) yet you wouldn't want to see her in a video game as a... flying vehicle... which she already is?


Lazy, let me stop you right there. Jinjos fly like planes. Kazooie flaps upwards and can glide at a slight angle downwards. If Banjo Pilot was not a typical racing game and you started from say, the top of a mountain and had to race your way downwards, Kazooie might work. But she can't fly like a plane!

Then you say that you have no problem with being presented with a new controller setup or guide lines of controlling and using that character, and yet you disregard the idea of Kazooie being used in racing game? Why is it okay for Banjo and not Kazooie? Then again, you say that if the game presents the idea in a way that makes sense to the gameplayer, you can COMPLETELY alter the consistency (as with the Prime space jump boots) and it will be okay, because the game made it out that way? How was the Prime Space Jump presented to you matter-of-factly? It simply exists with the name of old power up that does something completely different. In essence, it's a totally new power up... yet it reuses the old name. While in Metroid Fusion, the Space Jump exists there as well but you can jump in to flight. It also exists in Zero Mission and allows you jump in to flight. Yet in Prime, it is completely different without any explanation... and you're okay with that?



Samus' abilities are not inherent like Kazooie's are. They completely rely upon upgrades to her armor, and just because in one game she doesn't have the same upgrades doesn't mean that she couldn't have different upgrades in a different game.

This is confusing me... you say that if you put a DKR track in a B~K game... it would take you longer to race through it... I donít understand... how do you know that? Is the gravity different in B~K as compared to DKR? Since, Iím assuming you know, the in-game conversion of inches to feet is the same ratio in most Rare games, it's only the dimensions that change. Banjo at full speed will cover the same amount of ground as a DKR kart in the same amount of time. It only feels faster because one, the tracks in DKR are much smaller than any of the world's in either B~K game and the character models (in their vehicles) are larger than Banjo. This was done so that Rare could test out their new skinning method, where an entire texture map is wrapped around a skeleton, hence why the characters in DKR look seamless. In Goldeneye and Perfeck Dark, the textures and the poly models are huge to create scope and physical resonance, the props and sets are virtually 'life size' in terms of inches to feet. But Joanna will cover the same amount of ground as Banjo would or as the DKR hovercraft would in the same amount of time, if you could convert their scales (essentially making them all the same 'size').



Lazy I don't know when's the last time you played DKR and a Banjo game, but Banjo can most certainly NOT run as fast as a DKR vehicle can. Not even with gold feathers. If you were to put B-K into DKR and race against the DKR characters in their vehicles, they would have no chance against them. And it has nothing to do with textures. Play the games side-by-side. If you don't have two N64's and two TV's, borrow them from somebody. I assure you that Banjo is definitely not as fast as any vehicle in DKR.

You say that since we weren't presented with powerups that would allow flight in Mario Sunshine, it's not contradictory even though the past 3 games (spanning several years... a decade or more) allowed you to fly. However if I reverse the situation and present you with a game where an established character does something completely new and has never done it before, it would be... contradictory? We're not even talking about a completely new ability either... it's what Kazooie does best; Carry Banjo around and give him flight.


Removing a power-up from one game is not contradictory in the slightest meaning of the word. I don't know why you cannot understand this. Kazooie does not fly like a jet.

Then finally (Iíll stop it here because there are way too many directions to take this argument for me to prove my points), you say you have no problem with Jinjos acting like airplanes. I'm glad you walked in to this one, Jinjos never flied at any point in either B~K game. In fact, they stood still, silent (occasionally whistling and yelling 'over here!') until you touched them where upon they would be 'freed' and would disappear. The only "flight" they had, are when they were disappearing they encircled Banjo and yelled 'Jinjo!'. They would float, Iíll give you that, but they floated in the air just as any other item would when you grab it. Now it is true that at the end of B~K you had to 'fire' Jinjos like rockets at Grunty, but there is obviously no controlled flight (since you had to aim them) and they can only move through the air in short bursts. And yet knowing this (Iím assuming you played both games) you still state that Jinjos would make a better candidate for replacing the plane for Banjo in Banjo Pilot rather than Kazooie, who can not only move in short bursts but could also do barrel rolls, glide infinitely, dive and climb at break-neck speeds and do all of this while carrying a 250 pound bear. Now which is more contradicting?



You're right, we didn't see a lot of jinjos flying in any of the game, but we did see some flying, flying that was definitely more like an airplane than a bird. I'm sure there are some stronger jinjos out there that could carry someone like Banjo.

Let me give you an example of how it would work.

The race is starting, the words "Get Ready!" appear on the screen and we know from DKR that you press the gas when the "get Ready" is almost completely invisible. You do so and Kazooie yells out "BREEEE!" and you're off in a whirl of red feathers. Banjo gives out his trademark "Duh-huh!" as the speed boost dies down and you regain control of Kazooie. You're moving down a straight away now and Kazooie is gliding, occasionally flapping her arms. In front of you, you see a fence and you need to nose up before you hit the wall. Nosing up, you bring Kazooie's head and shoulders up to air brake but you donít MOVE up. You need to climb, so you tap your gas button and Kazooie thrusts her wings up and down once. A glittering red feather falls from her butt. But this is only an animation since you donít actually grab red feathers in the game to continue youíre climbing. The animation of the red feather falling is only there to make reference to other B~K games. A moment of "Oh I remember that!" like all great Nintendo games that are heavily basted in memorabilia and to evoke a sense of tradition over time.

As you climb upwards you see the feathers fall and you have cleared the fence with ease. Kazooie maintains her speed and height and glides effortlessly, allowing the player to focus on firing eggs from Kazooie's mouth at any racers that may have gotten ahead of them. A simple targeting 'scope' or reticule is used to show you the path that the fired egg will take. As you take a mild turn, tapping your air or holding down your brakes to turn even more in either direction, you reach another wall; but this time there is a cave directly beneath the wall. You nose down and hold the gas button down causing Kazooie to bring her wings in. She is now a missile and falls straight down - But before you hit the bottom of the cave, you let go of the gas button and nose up, making Kazooie's wings stretch out and giving you a parachute to slow yourself down to a controllable speed.

A racer is directly behind you, and you have egg ammo to spare. Once you clear the cave you double tap the air brakes while nosing up. Kazooie lets out a gagging "Kaw!" from the jolt and thrusts her wings downward shooting her straight up and then retracts them for a split second to fall backwards. Now you are behind the racer who was behind you and you have performed a loop. You quickly take aim by holding down the fire button (let's say, in the case of this game being on the GBA, firing weapons will be done by using the select button), which allows you to home in on your target, and release. Successfully shooting down the other racer briefly, but enough to get you more distance between you and the other racer.

As you can see the idea works fine, in theory. And it would have worked in Banjo Pilot except for the memory issues. All those extra animations and sound effects would have bogged down the memory so the idea of a much more simple plane was used that can be color swapped for each racing character.



That sounds good and everything when you completely disregard how Kazooie flies, but in reality it would not work unless they drastically changed her speed and flight capabilities.

There is absolutely no point in continuing this debate unless you can provide some kind of concrete angle on it. All of the points that you made were contradictory and had no purpose, in fact, even without knowing your character as a person who likes to argue over anything, I would have to say that by your posts in this thread alone I would have believed you to be that way. You said time and again that being presented with a completely new idea doesn't bother you. You said that a character of extreme limitations would still be a good candidate for controlled flight in a racing genre. You said that if the new idea is presented to you logically, you will completely accept it (Prime space jump) and basically... you agreed with everything I said, and yet you still want to argue. I do not understand at all.


I'm sorry lazy but your whole argument is flawed, you use examples to back up your points which don't even address the points that I've made. You have not listened to anything I have said, instead deciding to draw parallels from other games which are in no way similar to Kazooie's flight capabilities. You do not understand the difference between inherent abilities and power-ups. Kazooie's flight is an inherent ability, while Samus' space jump and Mario's raccoon suits are all power-ups. If you were to take Samus out of her suit and give her the power of flight, it would seem ridiculous and contradictory to what has already been established. Altering or taking away power-ups are in no way contradictory to the characters, and if you cannot understand this very simple concept then indeed, there is no point in continuing this debate with you.

A Black Falcon
None of the Nintendo party/racing/fighting games contradict the abilities or limits of the characters. Mario still runs about the same speed, and all of the characters have the same limits that they've always had. Your mushroom example is a very poor one; who's to say that mushrooms can't have a different effect on vehicles? Like ABF said, Captain Falcon never walked in the F-Zero games. Just because Kirby gains powers in a different way doesn't change the fact that he can gain new abilities. Making Kazooie as fast a jet would be ridiculous unless they took the time to explain why she's so much faster than before. Like I said, it would be dumb and pointless. Much like your posts.

You weaken your arguements here, OB1. You say that it's not okay in some cases but it is in others? So it's fine to have Kirby always have a hammer and sword, but not fine for Kazooie to have a permanant speed boost? That is NOT logical, and is a blatant flaw in your arguement...

A fictional character can be WHATEVER the game designer wants it to be. Yoshi's abilities can change depending on the game, as can Link's, Mario's and yes, even Banjo. Who, for example, in Banjo Pilot, is flying a PLANE which never existed at any time in any Banjo Game! It was from a RACING game: eg: a new gameplay element using existing characters. Why couldn't Conker get out of his car and use his frying pan or twirly tail? why couldn't Banjo shoot eggs at other players? it's called marketablity. If BANJO is in a game, one would assume that KAZOOIE should be around. But she wasn't even mentioned in DKR since it wasn't just about Banjo, it was about a cast of many different characters that all had to convert to a singular playing paradigm. But Banjo Pilot has the ability to borrow from the BK games heavily since the entire game is based on the B~K universe to which it would be a logical leap to ask why Banjo rides in a plane instead of using Kazooie who would act exactly like the plane but have the sprites to make it look like Kazooie.


As I said, Nintendo does do this... after all, play SMB3 and then SML2! In SML2 Mario runs significantly slower... OB1, how do you explain the difference here in run speed? For Mario 64 (which is also slower than Mario 1 or 3) you can say something about the differences in 3D, but between 2d platformers... it's not so bad that it's a blatant flaw or something, and it's explained by differing gameplay systems, but still... it is something that should be considered. Companies can and do do things like this, especially when changing genre (like 2d to 3d or platformer to racing).

Look, I don't like the idea of Banjo riding Kazooie in a racing game. I think it'd require a stupid story explanation -- Kazooie would have to have some special item that gives her permanant extra speed (to not break and that'd be kind of dumb. And anyway I just like mini planes more! But to be consistent, I have to say that if they really wanted to they could.

But I'd play as the mini-plane.


Oh, about Kazooie's speed. OB1, you constantly call her 'very slow'. Well, I wasn't exactly impressed by the blinding speeds in DKR! If this was that speed, Kazooie just might be able to catch up... sure, there're still major problems because it probably isn't fast enough and you need to deal with some special powerup to give her extra speed that doesn't require mashing a button the whole time you play the game, but I just wanted to say that kart racers aren't super fast speed games anyway.

Flying with his ears is not out of character for Bugs because it is in line with Loony Toons physics (seriously) and uses his pre-existing ears to do something that makes perfect sense in that world.
I know, this may sound absurd, but there is actual cartoon logic here. I don't expect you to understand it immediately, but what I'm saying is true.

I remember this one WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon where he's in a plane (a bomber, but on a base in the US) with this gremlin thing... in the end they head for the ground in a unstoppable dive straight down, and a foot above the ground the plane runs out of fuel and stops dead... :D


And you babies cried about it and made a huge debate of it. So huge, and so incredibly stupid, that it surpasses anything I have debated ABF on. Seriously.

Sorry if I disbelieve you, but you say this every single time... I think you just always think that the CURRENT one is the worst. :)

For that matter, concerning limitations and abilities, SSB again. Link and Samus should NOT be on even footing, but they are PUT on even footing and we totally accept it, because we just want to have FUN, not analyze everything to the nth degree. So what if TECHNICALLY a cheap metal and wood shield could never actually protect against a missile, or a bow being no match for an energy gun. It's all in good fun!

This backs up what I said above -- what about differences between games? OB1 you can (rightly) ignore powerup differences, but speed, etc? I mean... okay, so in Mario 64 Mario has gymnastics and doesn't before... but that actually makes sense, since the first Mario game with them was '94's DK'94 and there wasn't another Mario game after that (Yoshi's Island isn't Mario!) until Mario 64...

But the speed differences between the other games? Oh, sure, the Mario series has no continuity or anything and it's done because each game's engine runs a bit different, so it's not exactly a 'problem'. Just a point I want to raise. :) I could also talk about hitpoints, or Zelda 2, or plenty of other things, but one example is enough really...

As for SSB, DJ, you're absolutely right about them levelling things out to even it. And OB1, they DO do more than just Kirby for big changes -- look at the Shields! In their real games noone has a magical shield around them...

lazyfatbum
OB1 you are disregarding my factual statements taken from game designer books at Fullsail. But it doesn't matter. if you're not going to acknowledge factual information then the debate is certainly over.

Kazooie doesn't need to fly like a jet, she needs to fly like a DKR plane, which she already does. I just played DKR and the planes actually move up and down slower than Kazooie can, she can dive bomb in any direction, including straight down. She did that by wrapping her wings around herself and shooting like a rocket, that could be her boost animation. You say her degree of movement is only slight, when in fact it's more precise than the planes. Which is logical since in B~K you need excellent control over her flight to land on platforms without falling, or dying.

D-Pad aim's flight direction

A Button; Tap to flap wings sending Kazooie up or down quickly depending on direction. Hold to glide, steer with D-pad.

B button could be easily made in to an air brake.

R can be tilt for tighter turning. Double tap R; while nosing up to loop, while pressing left or right to barrel roll. Hold R and B to turn quickly.

L Eggs; Hold to get a target, release to fire. Tap to fire without target.

To upgrade eggs, collect the same color balloon up to 3 times.

Red/yellow Ballons:

Normal Blue Egg. Fires in a straight line.
Flame Egg. Homes in on target.
Nest Egg. Fire 10 Normal Blue eggs.

Yellow/purple balloons

Green Glowing Egg. 3 Second Sheild
Blue Glowing Egg. 5 second Shield
Purple Glowing Egg. 10 second Shield

Green/brown balloons

Black Egg. Kazooie passes gas and leaves a cloud behind her.
Spiked Egg. Kazooie leaves a proximity mine behind her.
The Smoking Egg. Kazooie leaves a rotten egg that explodes on contact and immobolizes them temporarily.

Blue/yellow balloons

Gold Egg. the smallest boost, let go of gas to get the most of it.
Jeweled Egg. Larger boost, let go of gas for the best effect.
Clockwork Kazooie Egg. A mechanical kazooie grabs on to Banjo and gives B~K a 3 second jet booster.

Select; Change camera

As you can see, with only slight tweaking, Kazooie is now an exact duplicate of the plane without altering any of her abilities or character. Whether you agree or not, I have proven that Kazooie would be a fine replacement for the DKR plane. One of the teachers at Fullsail who teaches character modeling and interaction completely agrees with me, she also loves DKR and B~K, and would love to see Kazooie instead of the plane. Now if someone more educated than you and I put together on the topic of character design and player interaction says i'm right, then you have to stop and think.

You should also notice, OB1, that no one else is posting in this thread other than DJ. because everyone at this board knows that you simply argue for no reason, even when presented with factual data and being proven wrong you continue to argue just for the sake of arguing. Because of that... no one wants to have a REAL debate as long as you're there, because you simply tell everyone you're right without proving anything. I'm not trying to dog you, this is just what i've noticed from this thread alone, as if i was a newbie.

This debate is over unless you can provide concrete factual data that Kazooie cannot act like a plane in DKR. (yes, this is a trick question, of course Kazooie can act like anything, she even turns in to a torpedo for God's sake, all i'm doing now is trying to push you further to make you look even more rediculous, no offence. But hopefully it will help you realize how impossible you are to have a friendly debate where opinions are shared, not forced)

A Black Falcon
I'm not talking about if Kazooie flies like a plane or a helicopter because I don't care much. :) And I have no idea how Kazooie flies anyway, I don't pay attention to that...

OB1
]You weaken your arguements here, OB1. You say that it's not okay in some cases but it is in others? So it's fine to have Kirby always have a hammer and sword, but not fine for Kazooie to have a permanant speed boost? That is NOT logical, and is a blatant flaw in your arguement...


There is nothing flawed with that logic. Kirby is still using the same powers while Kazooie is never fast or jet-like. You could give her constant speed boosts, but those boosts shoot you off in one, uncontrollable direction. If there were some magical feather that let her fly really fast and like an airplane then that would be a different story.

As I said, Nintendo does do this... after all, play SMB3 and then SML2! In SML2 Mario runs significantly slower... OB1, how do you explain the difference here in run speed? For Mario 64 (which is also slower than Mario 1 or 3) you can say something about the differences in 3D, but between 2d platformers... it's not so bad that it's a blatant flaw or something, and it's explained by differing gameplay systems, but still... it is something that should be considered. Companies can and do do things like this, especially when changing genre (like 2d to 3d or platformer to racing).
There is no significant difference in speed between the Mario games. The difference in speed DJ and lazy are suggesting for Kazooie would be incredible, more akin to the difference of Mario and Sonic.

Look, I don't like the idea of Banjo riding Kazooie in a racing game. I think it'd require a stupid story explanation -- Kazooie would have to have some special item that gives her permanant extra speed (to not break and that'd be kind of dumb. And anyway I just like mini planes more! But to be consistent, I have to say that if they really wanted to they could.

But I'd play as the mini-plane.
They could, and I said that. But just like you said they'd have to come up with a dumb explanation and it would really be pointless.

Oh, about Kazooie's speed. OB1, you constantly call her 'very slow'. Well, I wasn't exactly impressed by the blinding speeds in DKR! If this was that speed, Kazooie just might be able to catch up... sure, there're still major problems because it probably isn't fast enough and you need to deal with some special powerup to give her extra speed that doesn't require mashing a button the whole time you play the game, but I just wanted to say that kart racers aren't super fast speed games anyway.


No they're not super fast, but they're several times faster than Banjo-Kazooie. B-K is slow even for a platformer, so comparing it to even the slowest of racing games is foolish.

I remember this one WWII Bugs Bunny cartoon where he's in a plane (a bomber, but on a base in the US) with this gremlin thing... in the end they head for the ground in a unstoppable dive straight down, and a foot above the ground the plane runs out of fuel and stops dead...



Yup, those are very typical Loony Toons physics. If a plane has no gas, it doesn't crash, it just stops mid-air. If you don't understand what gravity is, it won't affect you. All great stuff, but if you know your Loony Toons it's surprisingly consistent. It seems like mad randomness but the creators did strive for consistency.

Sorry if I disbelieve you, but you say this every single time... I think you just always think that the CURRENT one is the worst.



Well that's because you get worse and worse with each debate. :p

Seriously, even you have to admit that this debate is inanely stupid.

This backs up what I said above -- what about differences between games? OB1 you can (rightly) ignore powerup differences, but speed, etc? I mean... okay, so in Mario 64 Mario has gymnastics and doesn't before... but that actually makes sense, since the first Mario game with them was '94's DK'94 and there wasn't another Mario game after that (Yoshi's Island isn't Mario!) until Mario 64...

But the speed differences between the other games? Oh, sure, the Mario series has no continuity or anything and it's done because each game's engine runs a bit different, so it's not exactly a 'problem'. Just a point I want to raise. I could also talk about hitpoints, or Zelda 2, or plenty of other things, but one example is enough really...
Mario does run slightly faster in the 2D games than in the 3D ones, but it's nothing inconsistent. Seriously, the man has gotten old. He can't run as fast as he used to be able to.

As for SSB, DJ, you're absolutely right about them levelling things out to even it. And OB1, they DO do more than just Kirby for big changes -- look at the Shields! In their real games noone has a magical shield around them...


All of the characters in SSB have those orb shields, so it's natural to assume that that's what they were given before the fight.



OB1 you are disregarding my factual statements taken from game designer books at Fullsail. But it doesn't matter. if you're not going to acknowledge factual information then the debate is certainly over.
Your "factual" information? All you've done in this debate is make terrible comparisons and ignore facts such as how much faster the vehicles in DKR are than Banjo-Kazooie. If this is what you've learned in Fullsail then I suggest you run over there right now and demand a refund for your tuition.
Kazooie doesn't need to fly like a jet, she needs to fly like a DKR plane, which she already does. I just played DKR and the planes actually move up and down slower than Kazooie can, she can dive bomb in any direction, including straight down. She did that by wrapping her wings around herself and shooting like a rocket, that could be her boost animation. You say her degree of movement is only slight, when in fact it's more precise than the planes. Which is logical since in B~K you need excellent control over her flight to land on platforms without falling, or dying.
Again this is you not paying attention to me.

I said that Kazooie's movement is too precise for a racing game. Part of the challenge in a good racing game is handling your craft. The fact that Kazooie is easier to handle proves my point. She was made to fly in a platformer and it would not work in a racing game without a great change of her abilities and some explanation of that change.
D-Pad aim's flight direction

A Button; Tap to flap wings sending Kazooie up or down quickly depending on direction. Hold to glide, steer with D-pad.

B button could be easily made in to an air brake.

R can be tilt for tighter turning. Double tap R; while nosing up to loop, while pressing left or right to barrel roll. Hold R and B to turn quickly.

L Eggs; Hold to get a target, release to fire. Tap to fire without target.

To upgrade eggs, collect the same color balloon up to 3 times.

Red/yellow Ballons:

Normal Blue Egg. Fires in a straight line.
Flame Egg. Homes in on target.
Nest Egg. Fire 10 Normal Blue eggs.

Yellow/purple balloons

Green Glowing Egg. 3 Second Sheild
Blue Glowing Egg. 5 second Shield
Purple Glowing Egg. 10 second Shield

Green/brown balloons

Black Egg. Kazooie passes gas and leaves a cloud behind her.
Spiked Egg. Kazooie leaves a proximity mine behind her.
The Smoking Egg. Kazooie leaves a rotten egg that explodes on contact and immobolizes them temporarily.

Blue/yellow balloons

Gold Egg. the smallest boost, let go of gas to get the most of it.
Jeweled Egg. Larger boost, let go of gas for the best effect.
Clockwork Kazooie Egg. A mechanical kazooie grabs on to Banjo and gives B~K a 3 second jet booster.

Select; Change camera

As you can see, with only slight tweaking, Kazooie is now an exact duplicate of the plane without altering any of her abilities or character. Whether you agree or not, I have proven that Kazooie would be a fine replacement for the DKR plane.
An "exact duplicate", eh? This right here is proof of how poor your argument in this debate is. An exact duplicate would mean that Kazooie would control just like a plane (funny how planes don't flap upwards, and that there is no acceleration button), and have the same speed as a DKR plane, which she most certainly does not.
One of the teachers at Fullsail who teaches character modeling and interaction completely agrees with me, she also loves DKR and B~K, and would love to see Kazooie instead of the plane. Now if someone more educated than you and I put together on the topic of character design and player interaction says i'm right, then you have to stop and think.
Uh-huh, and how in-depth was this discussion with your teacher? Forgive me for not believing you but I don't think this teacher has all of the facts regarding this debate and has put a lot of thought into it.
And I'm curious, which games has this teacher worked on?
You should also notice, OB1, that no one else is posting in this thread other than DJ. because everyone at this board knows that you simply argue for no reason, even when presented with factual data and being proven wrong you continue to argue just for the sake of arguing. Because of that... no one wants to have a REAL debate as long as you're there, because you simply tell everyone you're right without proving anything. I'm not trying to dog you, this is just what i've noticed from this thread alone, as if i was a newbie.
There are three other people besides me who get into debates at Tendo City. ABF, who gets into debates with everyone; Weltall, who mainly gets into political debates with ABF; and DJ, who debates mostly with me once in a while but never stays to finish it.
You have no facts to back up your debates, much like most people I debate with at this place rarely ever do. You've presented some fine ideas but have ignored some very important facts such as the speed of Kazooie, and have made up others (DKR not being faster than B-K). Come back to me when you have something more to back up your arguments with.

This debate is over unless you can provide concrete factual data that Kazooie cannot act like a plane in DKR. (yes, this is a trick question, of course Kazooie can act like anything, she even turns in to a torpedo for God's sake, all i'm doing now is trying to push you further to make you look even more rediculous, no offence. But hopefully it will help you realize how impossible you are to have a friendly debate where opinions are shared, not forced)
If you want I can make some videos comparing Kazooie flying through a level of Banjo-Tooie and Banjo flying a plane in DKR.
How about this, since you're so eager for me to prove you wrong yet unable to prove your own self right, why don't you make a video showing Banjo-Kazooie fly as fast as any vehicle in DKR, and we'll let the people here judge for themselves which is faster. And remember that Kazooie's rocket blast move (whatever it's called) does not give you precision and flying through a course like that would make for a terrible racing game.

A Black Falcon
There is nothing flawed with that logic. Kirby is still using the same powers while Kazooie is never fast or jet-like. You could give her constant speed boosts, but those boosts shoot you off in one, uncontrollable direction. If there were some magical feather that let her fly really fast and like an airplane then that would be a different story.

Yeah, it's not quite what Kazooie can do. But Kirby can't have two powers at the same time either, in any of his games... and has never had the inhale attack and a special at the same time anywhere other than SSB...

But you're right about how in B-K/T the boost goes in one direction. And that Kazooie can hover much better than a plane. But you know what? They make racing games with more than one kind of vehicle, so as long as they make it balance out overall that's okay...

There is no significant difference in speed between the Mario games. The difference in speed DJ and lazy are suggesting for Kazooie would be incredible, more akin to the difference of Mario and Sonic.

Mario can actually run at a good clip in some of those games... okay it's not Sonic speeds, but it's not slow. :)

And DKR isn't fast. Oh, it's faster, but fast? No. Sure, B-K/T aren't exactly quick-moving platformers, but as you say DKR's a slow racing game...


Yup, those are very typical Loony Toons physics. If a plane has no gas, it doesn't crash, it just stops mid-air. If you don't understand what gravity is, it won't affect you. All great stuff, but if you know your Loony Toons it's surprisingly consistent. It seems like mad randomness but the creators did strive for consistency.

True. Like how people never fall until they look down.

Mario does run slightly faster in the 2D games than in the 3D ones, but it's nothing inconsistent. Seriously, the man has gotten old. He can't run as fast as he used to be able to.

That's a unique explanation... :D

But how about Zelda 2? Or why Mario gets a health meter in Mario 64 instead of shrinking? Or related to Mario 64, how come in Mario 64 being in water heals you when you go underwater and then above but in Sunshine that is not true? Not to mention how suddenly in 64 Mario gains the ability to drown... :) (if in the old ones they'd put a snorkel or something on him it'd explain it, but they didn't...)

Of course for this the alternative isn't much better... a silly plot device to explain away necessities. Like how Samus always loses her stuff between games, or how Link loses his stuff between games (that use the same Links!), etc, etc...

Fine, so I'm undermining my case by saying how common it is to break your serieses established laws. Oh well. But it does seem to be that serieses make a extremely common practice of nonsensical story decisions to make the gameplay better (so you don't start super-powerful, etc)... they could do it for flying Kazooie too, it wouldn't be much worse than any of the things I mentioned here...

Well that's because you get worse and worse with each debate.

Seriously, even you have to admit that this debate is inanely stupid.

It doesn't seem that much worse than usual... from my view better in some ways because it's not just me arguing with you... :)


All of the characters in SSB have those orb shields, so it's natural to assume that that's what they were given before the fight.

Unless you say they're animated dolls or something based on that toybox in the intro of the first game... with super-special shields!

They could, and I said that. But just like you said they'd have to come up with a dumb explanation and it would really be pointless.

What it really comes down to is if you want to ride Kazooie in a racing game... they could do it if they wanted to. But I agree with you, obviously, on the matter. :)


An "exact duplicate", eh? This right here is proof of how poor your argument in this debate is. An exact duplicate would mean that Kazooie would control just like a plane (funny how planes don't flap upwards, and that there is no acceleration button), and have the same speed as a DKR plane, which she most certainly does not.

Hmm... yeah, in B-T Kazooie accelerates by hitting the button and going upwards. You're right, that's the opposite of a plane, which accelerates downwards and decellerates upwards. And Kazooie can hover kind of like a helicopter. So obviously she would be a different flying experience... honestly it could be annoying if you had to use boost -- acclerate in a cave, go up and hit the roof in front of a tunnel exit? You can't have her accelerate up in a boost as the main form of acceleration in a racing game, you're right about that. It just would not work and would not be fun to have to consantly hit the button.

If it was auto, with a normal racing 'hold button to acclerate'... if she accelerated UP instead of forward or forward and a bit down, like a real plane... as I said, that would just not work! You'd need to come up with some way of having her accelerate forwards, instead of up, and of adding brakes... but does that work with a BIRD? Birds accelerate by flapping... it could, I guess. Just have normal flapping be a hover/straight forward kind instead of up -- it wouldn't be too hard to imagine her flying like a real bird, would it? Especially if you gave her some powerup so that she doesn't have to use the feathers to accelerate up, which is why she accelerates in the direction she does...

So, I'd say, if you really wanted it you could solve it with a stupid "she got a super-feather!" explanation, and it'd be plausible, mostly. You'd still have issues, like why she suddenly controls more like a bird and doesn't have the same movement (as you say you'd have to alter, in addition to the acceleration and decelleration and speed, the turning...)... I don't know how to easily explain away those things, Lazy. I'm not completely agreeing with OB1, but those are real issues that you would have to deal with if you don't want a contradiction.

(Now, of course, I just say again that you can create games that are contradictions, and it happens all the time, but it's better when you don't.)

Banjo-Tooie was a rare exception to that rule that sequels do stupid stuff to make the game easier to make (so you don't start with all the upgrades), though, so in future Banjo games at least they should TRY to keep it plausible...

lazyfatbum
OB1 the debate is over. You lost. I'm not going to re-explain everything in terms you can understand because you simply dont have the education for it. And again, you only want to argue instead of debate. You're making nothing but contradictory statements with absolutely no basis and you're doing it just to be spiteful, that in itself is insanely immature for someone who says that he prides himself on his abilities to debate. In fact, I could get someone from the development team who worked on DKR and B~k to tell you up front that Kazooie would be fine as a DKR plane, but would require 3 or 4 times as much memory as the plane, (not to mention that each character would be riding a different creature with animations and so forth), so it would not be used on a GBA game. But it would be used in the now cancelled Donkey Kong Racing where a bee, an ostridge, a rhino and a swordfish all move and control the same and are about the same speed. If a rhino can be a car, than a bird can be a plane. And even with that information, you still would argue.

A Black Falcon
Lazy, the question isn't if it'd be possible to do Kazooie as a plane, but whether it'd make sense... the two issues I can think of are that she's a bird and birds don't fly like planes and that the controls and mechanics in B-K/T are quite different from a plane, as I say in my last post.

lazyfatbum
But why is that an issue? Kazooie can become a torpedo underwater and act like a torpedo by spinning her tail feathers like a propeller, it makes absolutely no sense... so why cant she be used as a plane which she already is (a gliding mechanism with forward thrust)?

I just realized something, OB1 is talking about animation of the character, not controls or programing. If Kazooie would be used as a plane in Banjo Pilot and used her tail feathers as she does when in torpedo mode to act as a rear plane propeller, then would it be acceptable to you OB1 that Kazooie could act as a plane does?

A Black Falcon
If you read my post (the long one, in particular), did I say she couldn't?

No, I said that there are some issues. I also said that while games admittedly do very often ignore the rules previous games in a series set down, it's best when they stick to them as much as possible. Kazooie, you must admit, does not control like a plane in B-K.
And as I said you could change that so that she does, but it still leaves you with issues about how you explain it... because I'm not satisfied with "It Just Is" anymore. That was okay back when Zelda 2 came out, but these days they should at least make an attempt...

For instance, they should make it more clear why after every game Mega Man loses his stuff. Do they disarm him after each mission in the hopes that he won't have to do it again? That's silly. X has such a ... um, intricate... storyline but this is dropped... at least Metroid Prime explained it! :)

It would just be annoying in a way if for no apparent reason Kazooie suddenly controlled completely differently. You do need to look at how she controls in the platformers... and if as I (and OB1) said that does not work for a racing game you should try for something better than 'It Just Is'. Though I don't think there IS any better way to change such a thing, unfortunately...

Great Rumbler
It would just be annoying in a way if for no apparent reason Kazooie suddenly controlled completely differently. You do need to look at how she controls in the platformers... and if as I (and OB1) said that does not work for a racing game you should try for something better than 'It Just Is'.

The whole basis of racing games like that is "It Just Is". I mean, why are they racing anyway? It's a non-issue, in my opinion, and anything that contradicticts what has been established in the real games should be also.

A Black Falcon
Hmm... I didn't mean story or something, I meant game mechanics... "It Just Is" as in "In this racing game Kazooie controls like a plane and not a helicopter or Kazooie-B-T because It Just Is."

Dark Jaguar
No, OB1 is just changing his argument to whatever you haven't utterly smashed apart with your SUPERIOR EDUCATION IN THE MATTER. OB1, lazy's opinion IS more valid and correct than yours and it's SOLEY because he's taken more game design classes than you.

OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.

Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.

You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.

And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED :D (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.

Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!

I don't claim to be perfect. I'm in this debate that for all intents and purposes has been over for some time after all. However, you need to acknowledge your own lack of social graces you know? Seriously, if you can respond to this VERY harsh assesment by me without completely getting angry, without ANY sort of attack, maybe just by saying "I see you have issues with me, I won't respond to your attacks, but rather just step out", it would show a HUGE improvement.

And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.

OB1, open up your imagination. I still think that deep down you are fully aware of how cool it would be to fly as our favorite orange freak bird, but have managed to convince yourself that this, a slight change in controls and some speed I guess, COMPLETELY undermine what she represents. Trust me, it doesn't. Whether it's major as a change or not is irrelevent. You point out Mario vs Sonic, and how horrible it would be, as you say, to suddenly boost Mario's speed. Why would that be so aweful anyway? Mario is only known for being slow in the context of Sonic's existance. If Sonic never existed, it wouldn't be an issue would it? You'd think "hey, what if Mario suddenly gained super speed in one game?". You are limiting Mario's potential only because another developer's creation already fills that "niche", and it's silly. Developers often take their franchises and toss them into other accepted genres. Wars is going Real Time, even though it had been known as an "alternative to real time" by a lot of people. I as a developer won't let that others did it before limit me, so long as I don't outright COPY it, and I think you know if Shiggy ever did decide to make Mario super fast for one game, it'd certainly be a lot different than a Sonic game.

OB1
OB1 the debate is over. You lost. I'm not going to re-explain everything in terms you can understand because you simply dont have the education for it. And again, you only want to argue instead of debate. You're making nothing but contradictory statements with absolutely no basis and you're doing it just to be spiteful, that in itself is insanely immature for someone who says that he prides himself on his abilities to debate. In fact, I could get someone from the development team who worked on DKR and B~k to tell you up front that Kazooie would be fine as a DKR plane, but would require 3 or 4 times as much memory as the plane, (not to mention that each character would be riding a different creature with animations and so forth), so it would not be used on a GBA game. But it would be used in the now cancelled Donkey Kong Racing where a bee, an ostridge, a rhino and a swordfish all move and control the same and are about the same speed. If a rhino can be a car, than a bird can be a plane. And even with that information, you still would argue.


Lazy, during your entire stay at Tendo City you have shown nothing but immaturity and pompousness, and when you are wrong you can only resort to insults and calling people penises. Basing most of your argument off of the statement "I know more than you" shows your inability to debate with a real, solid opinion to back it up. In this debate I have presented my opinion with solid reason and logic to back it up, and all you've been able to do is dodge my points and talk about how much more you know than me. Don't say you know so much more than me, prove it. Prove it with reason and back it up with something more than your ego and how much smarter you say you are than me.

It all boils down to this: I think Kazooie as is would be terrible for a racing game, and you think she'd be great. I've told you why I think she'd be bad and you've told me why you think she'd be good. This is a matter of opinion, not fact. But that's not enough for you, apparently. For whatever reason, you will not accept it unless I agree with your opinion, which again is not fact. Debating with you is extremely tiresome as nothing gets resolved. I seriously hope you show more intelligence and maturity with the games you make in the future. I know that Tendo City brings out the worst in all of us, but hopefully you'll read this and think for a moment. I will not continue this debate. Agree with me or not, nothing is going to change so I am quitting.

Bo Jackson
I would personally like to say that all of you video game nerds desperately need to get some frickin' lives. You've spend almost 100 posts debating on how a stupid imaginary bird flies. That's just sad, fools. Makes Bo very sad.

OB1
They started it!

Seriously, this is why I am ending the debate. Let the rest of them continue by themselves if they so choose.

Dark Jaguar
*slaps OB1*

Don't pretend lazy's acting like you and you're acting like him! Snap out of it OB1!

lazyfatbum
Wow... OB1 has completely lost it. I mean, you cant just totally change all the context and change the argument like that... can you?

I'm very very sorry, OB1. I hope you feel better soon. I never said I was smarter than you or better than you in any way. When I posted my opinion that I think Kazooie should have been used as the plane you created very large posts of why my opinions are wrong, and I defended them accordingly. I didn't call anyone a name when I started this debate and I simply wanted to show you how it could be done with some simple reasoning. You have altered the path of the debate multiple times, I dont know why you did that, but I think it's because I made it difficult for you to stay on a single subject.

but you still haven't answered the question, if Kazooie used her tail feathers like a plane propeller--

Example:

http://www.jjultralight.com/usedaircraft/index.18.jpg

http://www.jjultralight.com/usedaircraft/index.20.jpg

Just as she used them as a propeller to become a torpedo when using the Talon-Torpedo move in Banjo~Tooie would it be more within character and justifiable? When she does this move, her butt feathers spin just like a prop and make Kazooie the fastest thing in the game. She could have her tail feathers rotating before the race starts and then take off just as a plane would (no flapping) and even fly as one. Now I think that would be the perfect method for her to be used as a racing vehicle and I think you would agree.

OB1
I've lost it? I'm acting the most sensible out of everyone in this God forsaken place!

DJ is being her usual annoying self, popping in to say something stupid and annoying. That's all she does, "peck" at people. I wonder if she realizes how annoying she is, or if she can help it at all. And you've just reacted very strangely to my post. I told you why I think I was right, while you told me why you think you are right. WE BOTH DID THE SAME DAMN THING.

Kazooie using her tail as a propeller? That might work, even though she's never flown like that before... but I think that might work if you explain that she's in some weird plane mode, though you'd also have to make her control just like a plane and not like Kazooie in B-K. But yeah, if you do it like that rather than what you suggested before, it could work.

lazyfatbum
Good. I'm glad it would work. And you just contradicted yourself based on your previous arguments in so many ways that it makes my head spin by agreeing that it would work. I have reached an official conclusion:

You are a big diaper. A large.... stinky, brown diaper. I wonder if anyone else will see the horrible contradiction that OB1 made by agreeing that Kazooie can fly like a plane.

I hereby state the obvious!

Great Rumbler
Look at what we've become!! We've been reduced to animals trying to rip each other apart!! And it's all RARE'S fault! That's right! It's ALL their fault! They made this game knowing that it would be controversial and they're right because it's splitting the forum down the middle!! We can't let them tear apart the grandness of people who love Nintendo!

Melodrama Meter: Wow. That's seriously gotta be a like 10 at least.

OB1
I didn't contradict myself you dick, but I couldn't think of a good way to make Kazooie work as a plane and your ideas were all bad up until that last one.

Bo Jackson
I too think that lazy is a dick. And an asswipe. Aaaaand a pussy.

And BoJo is never wrong.

Great Rumbler
This thread is like the equivilant of three hundred pounds of beef in that if you left it outside for a few days it'd start to smell really bad.

OB1
Hey if Bo Jackson says that lazy is a pussy, he's a fucking pussy. Bo doesn't lie. :D

Great Rumbler
Bo Jackson's like the black equivalent of a white guy that's the white equivalent of a black guy that's really cool.

OB1
...


..

lazyfatbum
It helps me sleep better tonight (not really) because now I know for a fact that you couldn't argue yourself out of a paper bag if your life depended on it. But it was fun leading you on even if just to see how far you would go to prove a non-issue that is barely a discussion in the first place.

Loony Toons for example were made in strict time periods with little money in deserted lots at movie studios. Most of the time they didn't know how the cartoon would end and had to deal with the production of 10 cartoons at once, so they would just completely break the laws of physics for fun. It had no logic, it had no reason, it had no script it had only one purpose; to be funny. They didn't design any theories of comedy or write a thesis on "Loony Toons subtextual underlining meanings behind physics in toon world". They simply made the characters do whacky things for laughs.

Walt Disney himself called it imagineering, where you imagine how something could work if you could completely break all the laws of physics. And that's exactly what B~K is, it's a 3-D adventure platformer... with comedy. If Kazooie wanted to she could become a tank or a sword or a gun or a boomerang or whatever the game designers would want her to be While Banjo himself could become a Washing Machine or a Tyranosaurus - or learn a new move where suddenly your backpack heals you but it doesn't heal Kazooie. Anything goes, even a bird becoming a plane... which takes very little imagination, OB1. Even for you.

oh yeah, the contradiction you made was very simple, you said Kazooie cant act like a plane; I showed that she easily can with her tail feathers, and then you agreed with me yet continued to argue and completely miss the fact that I gave kazooie an ability that never existed before, is completely out of character (she could only twirl her tail for a few seconds and she could only do it underwater), makes no sense and has absolutely no basis in any B~K game but i'm not done yet. You, the person who says that a character MUST behave the same way in every game and OBEY LAWS made in the first game for the rest of their carreers and argues that he is the best arguer - Failed to realize that Kazooie is in a backpack and CANT USE HER TAIL FEATHERS. Fun stuff :D

Oh... and Bo is a nigger. :nodding:

A talented, beautiful nigger.

And you love him, dont you, OB1? yeah... OB1 likes the black. :kiss:

Come on buddy, let's see my little man get angry at mean old lazyfatbum because he made you look like an idiot in front of all his friends... oh wait... sorry, that was low. :( But you'll get friends someday.... when you're rich.

*tap dances out of thread waving top hat around*

Dark Jaguar
And now, it's the DJ show! Ta~ (jumps onto stage and no one claps or anything) da...

...You can all kiss the fattest part of my arse!

Seriously OB1, I was about to post the same thing, but lazy beat me to it, making me realize he was setting you up the entire time ON PURPOSE.

For a moment though, let's ignore THIS particular example of your lack of imagination. You see, rather than say "oh, never thought of that, guess you're right" (which it turns out, you aren't because flying like a glider with upward thrust for no reason would STILL totally rock) you say "That doesn't count because I didn't think of that!", which is NOT a defense in ANY argument. In fact, our whole argument WAS that you just weren't creative enough to think of how it would work, hence why lazy had to come up with something he thought you COULD imagine well enough (even though, as he points out it wouldn't work, well unless the bottom of the backpack was torn open to allow the tailfeathers to come out there, actually that would be pretty neat :D).

OB1, yes, I know I'm being rude, and so is lazy, but that doesn't excuse you because you too are being VERY mean here. You know, you have NEVER once admitted you were wrong about ANYTHING here? Wait, that's not true, one time you did. That GCN Fire Emblem thing, but that's it. I know I know "That's because I'm always RIGHT around here and surrounded by idiots!", but seriously, REALLY seriously, I have to ask. ARE you capable of admitting you are wrong about something, namely, are you capable of admitting you are wrong even when it would be very embarressing to do so? Honestly, at this point I really have to wonder if you could ever admit you are wrong. I have a feeling that if you actually got into a huge argument about a GCN Fire Emblem, you would never have posted the thread about it existing or responded to it when it was made, maybe just kinda saying "that's cool" but at the same time acting like you never once argued against it ever being made. Honestly, when you get like this, it's very hard to consider you a friend.

OB1
It helps me sleep better tonight (not really) because now I know for a fact that you couldn't argue yourself out of a paper bag if your life depended on it. But it was fun leading you on even if just to see how far you would go to prove a non-issue that is barely a discussion in the first place.
Haha, if I only I could learn from the great lazyfatbum the art of debating. Yes, what I would need to is to dodge the other person's points, make example to back up my points that aren't even appropriate, and then talk about how someone smarter than me says I'm wrong. GENIUS!

Loony Toons for example were made in strict time periods with little money in deserted lots at movie studios. Most of the time they didn't know how the cartoon would end and had to deal with the production of 10 cartoons at once, so they would just completely break the laws of physics for fun. It had no logic, it had no reason, it had no script it had only one purpose; to be funny. They didn't design any theories of comedy or write a thesis on "Loony Toons subtextual underlining meanings behind physics in toon world". They simply made the characters do whacky things for laughs.

Walt Disney himself called it imagineering, where you imagine how something could work if you could completely break all the laws of physics. And that's exactly what B~K is, it's a 3-D adventure platformer... with comedy. If Kazooie wanted to she could become a tank or a sword or a gun or a boomerang or whatever the game designers would want her to be While Banjo himself could become a Washing Machine or a Tyranosaurus - or learn a new move where suddenly your backpack heals you but it doesn't heal Kazooie. Anything goes, even a bird becoming a plane... which takes very little imagination, OB1. Even for you.
All of the great animators of the 20th century talked about realism within fantasy, where you need to make boundaries even for insane cartoon physics. Iwata actually made a very similar speach this past GDC, you should check it out. Perhaps then you won't look like such an asswipe.

oh yeah, the contradiction you made was very simple, you said Kazooie cant act like a plane; I showed that she easily can with her tail feathers, and then you agreed with me yet continued to argue and completely miss the fact that I gave kazooie an ability that never existed before, is completely out of character (she could only twirl her tail for a few seconds and she could only do it underwater), makes no sense and has absolutely no basis in any B~K game but i'm not done yet. You, the person who says that a character MUST behave the same way in every game and OBEY LAWS made in the first game for the rest of their carreers and argues that he is the best arguer - Failed to realize that Kazooie is in a backpack and CANT USE HER TAIL FEATHERS. Fun stuff
Ah, but that is where you are wrong. If Banjo were to ride on top of Kazooie rather than carry her on his back, she could use her tail feathers. At first I couldn't think of a good way to make Kazooie fly like a plane, and neither could you. But that last example sounded like it could actually work.

Dark Jaguar
Not only could he, he did! And for that matter, you just contradicted yourself again! You first say Kazooie shouldn't be flying in a pilot game because she never flew like that before, well she SURE as spit never flew with Banjo on TOP of her before! Not saying it would be bad, because I have an imagination, but you of all people should at least be aware of your OWN argument when debating.

OB1
Again you fail to grasp a word that I say. You can give Kazooie new abilities but they have to make sense, and flying as she did in the Banjo games would not work in a racing game. However, switching them around (Banjo on top) and having her not flap her wings and propel herself with her tail could work.

Dark Jaguar
Of course it would work! Lazy didn't come up with that new idea because he was saying the old one "wouldn't work", he did it to trip you up! Why exactly WOULD the tail propeller thing make so much more sense, or Banjo riding on top? They defy the existing abilities they had just as much, if not more so, than the really cool flying method lazy imagineered at the start!

I grasp exactly what you say, to the point I see the contradictions. You first say the abilities have to make sense. The context you provide for "making sense" after we point out that NOTHING makes sense in the Banjo universe is that it has to make sense FOR THAT WORLD. We point out that it DOES, it's just something new and different. You respond that it has to make sense for that world with an explanation. We respond that a lot of abilities have NO good explanation at all. They are all VERY valid examples to draw from, but you arbitrarily decide that they aren't. All your reasons that examples like the power shields in SSB (which have NO explanation at ALL, and don't NEED one, and we know you agree with that) are EXACTLY the same as this. None is needed to explain a slight boost in speed or better handling! Also, we state there's no vital utter change in KAzooie because she is not KNOW for being slow, just carying a bear around. You say "it has to be in a recognizable way that makes logical sense" going backwards I might add.

Then lazy comes up with a different example to set you up, that propeller thing. You buy it hook line and sinker, saying "yeah that would work". The SECOND you said that, you admitted you were wrong. The argument the whole time, as you can see, was that Kazooie COULD work as a plane and you weren't imaginative enough to see how. But that's not all. By saying that could work, you were saying this propeller method was someone MORE in line with KAzooie's character than flying like she normally does! How can you not see that? By YOUR VERY ARGUMENTS, the propeller method would actually be WORSE.

Then you go on to say, when pointed out that she couldn't fly like that due to the backpack, that Banjo could ride her! Of all the things you said, that's the BIGGEST contradiction. That goes against how we know Kazooie more than anything else! You go on to say it makes more sense, even though it violates YOUR OWN RULES for what constitutes making sense in the Banjo world!

Listen, this whole post I have VERY methodically explained exactly why you are wrong, using good logic to explain your BAD logic.

OB1
Why is this so difficult for you to understand? Are you really that stupid? It doesn't matter if they didn't do that specific move before, because it just has to make sense without any elaborate explanation needed. Suddenly making Kazooie fly really fast and like a plane the way she flew in the Banjo games would not make sense, but changing it around in the way lazy suggested does work and is not contradictory to her abilities. As usual you have completely ignored the point of my entire argument, which is that as they were shown in the Banjo games, Kazooie as a plane would not work at all. Lazy first suggested that she fly just like she did before and completely ignored her speed and movement. It's true, I hadn't though of Banjo sitting on top of her and Kazooie using her tail to propel herself, that's a good idea. If lazy had said it that way from the beginning then I would have said "yeah, that could work". There is absolutely nothing contradictory about anything I have said in this debate, you either do not understand the meaning of the word or haven't the intelligence to understand my arguments. Really DJ, this is a new low for you.

Dark Jaguar
And once again you completely fail to understand your own argument. Since when was that other idea ever presented in the game might I ask, and why can't it just be different? We all SAID she just needs maybe a bit more speed but would work fine, and you think that would need an explanation, but apparently her flying with Banjo on top and her using a propeller tail needs none? Get a grip!

OB1
And once again you completely fail to understand your own argument. Since when was that other idea ever presented in the game might I ask, and why can't it just be different? We all SAID she just needs maybe a bit more speed but would work fine, and you think that would need an explanation, but apparently her flying with Banjo on top and her using a propeller tail needs none? Get a grip!


Stupid, pay attention this one last time. I am not going to repeat myself, this is going to be my last post in this thread, and I will not even enter it again just so that I don't feel compelled to respond to one of your idiotic posts. So pay attention!!

The Banjo-Kazooie set-up seen in the Banjo games would not work in a racing game because Kazooie is too slow and the flight model (if you can call it that) would be very bad for a racing game. HOWEVER, if you were to change the B-K set-up in a way that would make sense in the world of Banjo-Kazooie like how lazy just suggested, it COULD work! You could have a little cinematic in Banjo Pilot showing Kazooie with flight goggles, and Banjo asking her what the deal was. Then she'd explain that she just graduated from bird flight school and can fly just as fast as any man-made plane now that she has learned a new way of flying. You'd see her all ready to go, Banjo jump on her back, end cinema. Maybe not quite like that, but you get the idea.

Dark Jaguar
And why would that make MORE sense than her flying like lazy's first idea?

lazyfatbum
lmao are you just egging him on DJ or are you actually trying to give him an anurism? This is the best thread ever. I need one of those clickers to keep up with how many times OB1 said something contradicting to his own view points or simply said something dumb.

OB1: Kazooie cannot/can do whatever the programers want to do with her, You CAN/CANNOT, however, dumbass, make Kazooie do/do not whatever you need to do/cannot do but she cant/can fly like a plane idiot, but she CAN/CANNOT become a plane as long as it's done the way I say it should be done. God, why is this so difficult/easy for you MORONS to understand? All i'm saying is yes/no and maybe if it's in my favor. That's ALL i'm saying! And I'm not contradicting you RETARD. I'm CONTRADICTING, there is/isn't a difference/similarity, idiot. Jesus Christ/Moses.

Bravo, OB1. You should write tax forms. Hell, you probably do/do not.

Dark Jaguar
Ya got a point. Honestly, once again I failed to upkeep my own goal of never getting into an idiotic debate like this. There's blame I need to take for this, because by responding I WAS in fact egging OB1 on.

I did try being logical, but in the end I also pulled cheap insults. Aside from lazy, who does so in this odd way that's ALMOST a compliment, no one here should be doing that. Honestly, whether or not I was trying to prove some idiotic point to OB1 or not with that, it was wrong of me to do that. I apologize for the insults. Anyway, I'm not sure what I can do aside from just dropping it. It would seem OB1 has accepted that sometimes one just needs to walk away and that it's NOT a sign of weak character to do so. Thus, I will return to that myself. Indeed, for the first few years, I didn't get into arguments. I'd give an opinion and then leave it at that.

To be honest, I really don't have any idea what changed in me to get me to be so argumentative. Somewhere along the line, I went from being close to LL in terms of easy goingness to this. I'll be attempting to sorta go back in time, because that old personality had all the tools I could want.

Anyway, that's about it. I'll just sorta say my thoughts and leave it at that in things. These debates really are very stupid, and being right or wrong no longer matters to me. It's obvious to me now, the thing I've learned the most here, that it's not neccesary to actually GET the other person to change their mind so long as you voice your thoughts. It's something I knew before this, but forgot. For a couple weeks, I'll have OB1's posts blocked, just as my own personal test of myself to see if I'm still so argumentitive. Also, if OB1 does the same thing for me, and apparently ABF, lazy, and Darunia as well since they also really grate on him, we could both find out some stuff.

Meanwhile, I'll just say I REALLY don't want to end ANY friendships started here. It's greatly apparent that even though it's a message board, it's just as real when people are communicating (even if it's not as efficient as actually talking in person). At the same time, this is supposed to be a very friendly place. It always was. Even now, for the most part it still is. Let's not just HOPE that it gets better though. I'm certainly changing.

Great Rumbler
The End.


...


...


...


Or IS it?!?!?!

lazyfatbum
That's really cool DJ and I understand why you became so argumenative.

The entire reason I posted in this thread was to share the idea of wanting to see Kazooie in Banjo Pilot and being disappointed that she wasn't. When OB1 started arguing against my opinion I decided to let him have it so to speak, ever since I came back from the hectic schedule of school, every thread had two or three pages of OB1 arguing with someone, usually ABF, over something dumb and just ended up being name calling and flaming by the last page. And I cant stand it, instead of the threads building in to real debates with valid points, or becoming a joke-filled krap thread, it was abondoned to let OB1 argue.

When Ice-9 killed the board years ago, I begged every single member of TC to do something, find some way of creating a new message board because I had no idea how it was done; the person who was my greatest Playstation loving enemy told me he knew how to make a message board and agreed that it would be the right thing to do, but I never imagined that TC would become a place where we (or atleast I) have to deal with something a thousand times worse than N_A's arguments over and over and over and over to the point where you just dont care anymore and you leave the thread hoping there's a good conversation elsewhere on the board. OB1's arguments are like a disease infecting the threads one at a time and I see how it effects every member of the board, everyone is becoming more argumenative because in reality, we just want to yell "shut up! no one wants to fuel your argument meter! leave me alone and let me have a real BBS conversation!" yunno?

But anyway, i'm hoping it will die down now and people will start posting more often.

A Black Falcon
... ack, so much since I was last here... *reads* Huh, this post of DJ's is really the only one worth replying to... and given no one ELSE did, I should! :)

OB1, first you say that items mean nothing, then you go on to say that Samus' armor is a DIFFERENT KIND of item and that it can't be removed suddenly. They DID do that, and gave her a stun gun and good jumping abilities without the suit. Yeesh, why are SOME items completely okay to change but OTHERS not? Whether it's a part of their body or not is completely irrelevent. Once something's behavior has been established, as you put it, it can't be suddenly changed with no explanation. Your double standard is painfully obvious. While it's FINE for something like a koopa shell to suddenly out of NOWHERE be a skateboard that turns mario invincible, you say it's completely different for Mario himself to suddenly, from nowhere, be able to dig underground like a mole. These are BOTH the SAME THINGS. Sure, you can say "well those are different shells", but it would be wrong to use such a defense as that just to keep your double standard intact. Fact is, the shell's behavior has been established for some time and they changed it completely out of the blue in an unexpected way. I LOVED that they did that. The fact that they are "different shells" as one could put it is totally irrelevent. It's that we EXPECTED them to act one way based on previous experience and they acted a totally unexpected way that is important. It's what WE, the PLAYERS are thinking that matters.

Hmm... you make an interesting point here, actually. How is it different between Mario getting some ability that he didn't have before and a Koopa's shell getting some ability IT didn't have before?

First, in a racing game the shells generally come from powerups. So you can assume that they are not just normal items but are specially made for the racing circuit, so having them have different properties is not just okay, it's expected. This would also explain homing shells of course.

As for the 'skateboard', I don't know what you mean. I don't remember a Mario game where Koopa shells have multiple properties without any explanation (like 'specially made racing weapons')... could you give an example of that? I don't remember places where Koopa shells suddenly acted completely differently from all other Koopa shells with no explanations (like it being some special Koopa, which WOULD provide an explanation -- specially modified shell! :))... Oh, I'm sure that games have done such things many times before, as I said, but I also said that it's better and much more consistent when they don't...

As for a Koopa shell being a skateboard... well, it's POSSIBLE I guess to ride on one, they do roll along the ground and at a good speed too, I don't see how that totally breaks the rules of Koopa shells to be honest. Invincible? Who knows. But being a skateboard, with no more information than that, I don't see how it's so against the rules of Koopa shells.

The Banjo-Kazooie set-up seen in the Banjo games would not work in a racing game because Kazooie is too slow and the flight model (if you can call it that) would be very bad for a racing game. HOWEVER, if you were to change the B-K set-up in a way that would make sense in the world of Banjo-Kazooie like how lazy just suggested, it COULD work! You could have a little cinematic in Banjo Pilot showing Kazooie with flight goggles, and Banjo asking her what the deal was. Then she'd explain that she just graduated from bird flight school and can fly just as fast as any man-made plane now that she has learned a new way of flying. You'd see her all ready to go, Banjo jump on her back, end cinema. Maybe not quite like that, but you get the idea.

Isn't this what we've both been saying from the beginning? It ties right in to the thing DJ said above, though... but I want more proof of that. :)
Also, you completely failed to address ABF's VERY good point on the bubble shield. Aside from Kirby, not a single other character has this ability or anything even remotely close. It's not an item at all, it's a POWER generated via their BODIES. Yoshi uses an egg instead, everyone else uses an orb of power. You seem totally okay with this. Since when does Yoshi for example hide INSIDE an egg to protect him from attacks? I'll go ahead and oblige you on your silly double standard between items and characters and remind you that Yoshi MAKES those eggs himself.[/quote]

He said 'it's obviously an item they were given', DJ. Did you miss that? Oh, it's a somewhat weak explanation, but he DID say something. :) And it COULD be an item... how can you prove it was generated by their bodies?

As for Yoshi, he's stupid and I don't care. :D But you're right, that's another one, like Kirby, that breaks the rules...

You may at this point say the same silly thing you said about Captain Falcon "Well, you never saw him outside the car before" would transform into "you don't know his eggs couldn't do that before!". Mind you, your very argument here defeats you. If you can argue that there was no evidence Captain Falcon or Yoshi COULDN'T do those things, then I can just as easily point out there's no evidence at all that Kazooie CAN'T fly like a Diddy Kong Racing plane. As I've said again and again, Kazooie is known for being able to fly, she's known for spitting eggs, and known for being on the back of a bear. However, she is NOT known for being slow. You may have noticed this as an aside in those two games, but it's CERTAINLY not a trademark quality of the bird.

I still think that your point "she is not known for being slow" is, well, pointless. In a game like Banjo-Kazooie, you get upgrades. They increase your abilities. Even if she WAS known for being slow, is it so hard to believe that you could give her an upgrade that *gasp* increases her speed? I'd say not!

Oh, and Captain Falcon NEVER WALKED. He was in a CAR. So they had a blank slate in SSB to work on! Why is that so hard to understand? It's Kirby or Yoshi who they broke some rules to fit into the game, not Captain Falcon.


And yes, you say "this is the stupidest thing ever" and "You have really disappointed me" every SINGLE time someone, anyone, disagrees with you. It's not just rude, it's a blatent bit of self deception. You know as well as anyone that the probability of each argument ACTUALLY being worse than the last, each and every time, is just too low to be true. Also, if I have "completely dissappointed you" or "you have lost all respect for me" the last time, then how can it happen AGAIN? Did I do something amazing that GAINED your respect between arguments or something? In effect, where I previously thought you had 0 respect from me the entire time, I suddenly found out you had some respect for me for a while before this, and so I'm actually FLATTERED (kidding, I honestly don't care what you think about me at this point). Honestly, you need to learn some manners and common decency. You know why we never get mad at lazy, even with those VERY off color remarks? It's because he manages to convey VERY well an aura of respect for our opinions and we respect him back for it. You haven't managed to do that for ANYONE in a LONG time.

Your comments that "not a single person here has any debate skills except me" proves your egotism and outright rudeness. Now, look I"m not trying to insult you, well maybe a little, but the fact is you never once consider even the possibility that it's not that everyone here is a moron, but perhaps that you are in fact very bad at recognizing valid points when they go against what you think. Try and at least consider that you might be wrong. It is NOT a sign of weakness to admit defeat! It's NOT!

Obviously I completely agree.

And just to finish up, games always do completely unexpected things to their characters all the time, and character or item, it's irrelevent. The important bit is what we EXPECT them to do and how their behaviors and abilities match up. It's a good thing. There's an entire series that shares ONLY the name in common with the others, and the only connection IS the side items and some creatures. I call it "Final Fantasy". The entire theme, world, story, characters, and ability systems (and sometimes the battle system itself) is different in each game. In fact, FFX-2, where it was actually using the same world and some characters, was actually a huge CHANGE from the norm. It worked out though. I wouldn't want to be limited in what I can do as a designer just because someone doesn't think a character or item or world or whatever (it's all the same, your argument has been done to death on many things, and when it's disregarded magic happens, but when the developers try too much to please the existing fans, stagnation happens, see Street Fighter) can do something.

Oh, I know. I provided a few examples of games where they nonsensically do things that are not explained and don't really make sense from a story standpoint (but often do from a 'fun' standpoint -- or at least a 'this makes sense' standpoint. For what I mean by THAT, let's take Quest for Glory. As you progress through the five games in the series, you can save your character and upload it into the next one with a cooresponding increase in your stats. But the games don't really explain why the enemies are on a plane... that is, how it is that you conveniently happen to go next to an area with enemies the next step up on the difficulty ladder... most games "solve" this issue by doing like Zelda and wiping you clean after each game.). But then I said 'But it's better when they don't.'. The issue isn't if they CAN do something that makes no sense in the case of the universe, of course they could! As you say in the next paragraph they COULD make Mario as fast as Sonic if the programmers wanted. (oh, before I continue, FF doesn't count because every game is in a different world. No continuity issues there, excepting X-2.) It'd just be stupid by the rules of Mario. This is the whole point here about Kazooie... by the rules of B-K, Kazooie can't be a plane and does not fly like one! And in a racing game Kazooie would have to.

Okay, so you solved it by saying the tail propeller idea. And as OB1 said that's a decent one, provided that it's shown as a powerup or ability or something and doesn't just come out of nowhere. But my point wasn't ever just about this example, it was about the whole case of this subject (breaking the rules of your universe) in general, so that doesn't change much in relation to what I said.

Great Rumbler
Alright, I think we've probably exhausted the possibilities of this thread and, besides, who really wants to buy Banjo Pilot anyway? With the powers invested in me by Weltall, I hereby close this thread forever in the hopes that I will somehow redeem myself for ever thinking that making it would be a good idea.

And don't ever THINK about using your admin powers to post in here again!!

A Black Falcon
Don't do that again. Seriously. Do not. I want a reply to that post!

Great Rumbler
I made this thread and I can close it whenever I please!!

Here's the deal if you can discuss this without provoking anyone I'll let it continue, but if things get out of hand again I may just delete the whole thing and be done with it. So keep that in mind.

A Black Falcon
Oh come on, it's always like this, this arguement is no worse than any others... if you don't like it just go away. :)

Great Rumbler
It isn't NOW, but that's only because the other side left.

if you don't like it just go away.

Well, if you don't like me using my admin powers to close a thread I MADE then maybe YOU should leave! Yeah, beat that!!

A Black Falcon
Well, kind of, but I looked at the thread and the biggest issue was resolved with Lazy thinking up the 'tail propeller'... my post is only kind of about that, though. Kind of, but different...

Great Rumbler
I don't think there's much left to discuss here, but you can keep going if you want.

Dark Jaguar
Well, actually since OB1 won't respond to this thread, I think it's somewhat safe now, and besides I want to have a nice discussion about random stuff with ABF.

Oh ABF, regarding the koopa shell skateboard, I wasn't making that up believe it or not. That's straight out of Mario 64. All the koopa shells in the game you can find, with no explanation, now act like skateboards (slow ones, much slower than they normally skid in the previous Mario games), and grant you invincibility (with the golden sparkles and music and everything). It was pretty cool, but you know, I was just using it as an example there.

Anyway, about the power shields, yeah I know OB1 said they are "obviously an item they got before the match", but I disagree to put it simply. Yeah, I guess it COULD be an item, but considering Japan, and the total lack of anything to support it being an item, I'll wager it was just a completely out of the blue new ability they added. But, ya know, whatever.

Oh yes, that's one thing I didn't even think of, though I have before. Us as gamers ARE willing to just completely ditch all reasoning when it comes to Link loosing all his powers aren't we? Sure, when a whole NEW Link comes around, him being weak and itemless is expected, but from OOT to MM, or Zelda 1 to Adventure of Link? There's no explanation and it certainly doesn't fit the characters does it? In fact, only twice has anything been done about this very common thing. Once, in Megaman Legends 2, where it was addressed in a humorous fasion.

Megaman: Roll, where's all my old weapons?!
Roll: Oh, sorry Megaman, but I sold it all to pay for the new engine.
Megaman: WHAT?!

Second, in Banjo~Tooie, though it's not so much "addressing" it as avoiding it alltogether by just letting them KEEP all their old abilities.

In ALL the games where this sort of thing happens though, it's due to gameplay over story. Anyway, now I just assume that ALL the characters between ALL games sell their stuff :D.

lazyfatbum
Somewhere there's a universe that has a pawn shop with Mega Man's dog and Mario's Hammer Bros. suit.

In B~T when you start a new game with all the B~K abilities it feels more like a sequel and not a 'conversion' of the first one, Banjo is slighty more responsive but not by much. In Mario Sunshine almost all your original abilities are gone except for tummy sliding and the Triple Jump. But Mario's entire responsiveness and control has become tighter, this is obviousely because Mario ate that entire cake and then bought some Sweatin' to the Oldies videos, a few laters later, BAM! More responsive Mario.

Dark Jaguar
Oh but Mega Man never sold his dog! Rush is still around! Legends and X, and Zero, and EXE, use totally different Megamen though.

Rush: Actually, truth be told, I'm not the ORIGINAL Rush. Do NOT leave me alone with Dr. Light!

DJ: What the hell?! You can TALK!

Rush: .... never mind...

Dark Jaguar
*starts randomly pulling vegebles out of the ground and chucking them at passers by*

lazyfatbum
Rush: *is chased by a helicopter*

12 people at outpost 32 in the antartic: *saves dog and kills helicopter*

Snake Pliskin: Hey.... someone put that dog....... with the rest of the dogs....

Dogs in the kennel: hey wtf that's not a normal dog he's holy shit

Ruch: *becomes an organic mass and tries to copy the other dogs*

Childs: what the hell is that! shoot it! My voice is used in voice overs constantly!

Scientist: Um! Save it! for.... research! *is killed* n/m! *becomes The Thong*

The Thong: *hybrid of Rush and Scientist* Uh... destroy liberals! *wags tail*

Liberals: *is Johnny Cash* Bill Clinton was the best president this country has ever had! *performs felatio on The Thong*

The Thong: In the first movie... you couldn't see me. But in the book, I was described as a shape shifting creature, now in the 80's i'm finally brought to life as the creature from the book, but you know what? tell CGI it can eat dick! Puppeteering all the way baby! I give something the actors can react to! and GUUAGGHAGHGAHYAHHAGG

Gollum: Same idea, different way of doing it yadda yadda yadda. I mean fish fish fish. Shit, out of character again... no you weren't, I was... not, yes, I was. Nooooo..... shut up, you shut up! I told you to shut up first no you didn't I said it first dont be such an ass why dont YOU stop being such a pussy and go kill Frodo he's my friend I cant you should.... then we could go home with our precious and not worry the last movie we can end our tale on the second movie oh you'd like that yes I would well it sucks it does not I hate you go away not happening *is eaten by The Thong*

The Thong: *becomes Mapel Girl* ALL RIGHT BITCHES NOW LET'S ALL SEE HOW IT FEELS TO BE USED LIKE A DAMN SCRATCHING POST FOR MY ITCHY BITCHY THONG HOMOS!!!!!!!!1

John Carpenter: ...I'd yell cut but this would make an awesome sequel. *remembers that he directed Ghosts of Mars and kills self* ....so much for that idea. :crap:

A Black Falcon
Oh ABF, regarding the koopa shell skateboard, I wasn't making that up believe it or not. That's straight out of Mario 64. All the koopa shells in the game you can find, with no explanation, now act like skateboards (slow ones, much slower than they normally skid in the previous Mario games), and grant you invincibility (with the golden sparkles and music and everything). It was pretty cool, but you know, I was just using it as an example there.

How strange. The invincibility is the oddest part... as I said, since a Koopa shell doesn't stop moving, ever, once started (hey, just get one and kick it and you've got an instant perpetual motion machine!), it's not impossible... you just need to figure out how to stay on. :) But the invincibility is inexplicable.

Anyway, about the power shields, yeah I know OB1 said they are "obviously an item they got before the match", but I disagree to put it simply. Yeah, I guess it COULD be an item, but considering Japan, and the total lack of anything to support it being an item, I'll wager it was just a completely out of the blue new ability they added. But, ya know, whatever.

For the first SSB I kind of thought they were toys or something, based on that toybox and the characters that look like stuffed animals animated by the Master Hand... but it doesn't exactly have a story, so make up whatever you want pretty much. :)

Oh yes, that's one thing I didn't even think of, though I have before. Us as gamers ARE willing to just completely ditch all reasoning when it comes to Link loosing all his powers aren't we? Sure, when a whole NEW Link comes around, him being weak and itemless is expected, but from OOT to MM, or Zelda 1 to Adventure of Link? There's no explanation and it certainly doesn't fit the characters does it? In fact, only twice has anything been done about this very common thing. Once, in Megaman Legends 2, where it was addressed in a humorous fasion.

For Mega Man my best guess is that they're optimistic and disarm him after each battle, hoping there won't be another... but still, that doesn't explain why you have to start your health meter over each time (collecting the various kinds of health-increasing items the series gives you)... especially in X. There really isn't an explanation. Well, excepting X5... if you recall, in the beginning of X5 you can choose between Megaman, Zero, and (if you choose Megaman as your character) one of the armor suits from X4. But it's been weakened somewhat so even THERE it isn't quite the same... and of course you have to start over with your health meter and the weapons.

As I said, it's an extremely common thing. I'd say the fact that B-T DID deal with this is, as I said, a good part of why I'd want future Banjo titles to do the same... that, and how I always hope for a sensible story. I don't LIKE those inexplicable things! Sure it's done for gameplay, but at least explain why.

Of course, those explanation are often stupid and it'd be hard to come up with a good reason for why, for instance, Link gave up (somehow) all of this health after the end of each game... items I can understand, of course, but you have to start with 3 hearts again!

In B~T when you start a new game with all the B~K abilities it feels more like a sequel and not a 'conversion' of the first one, Banjo is slighty more responsive but not by much. In Mario Sunshine almost all your original abilities are gone except for tummy sliding and the Triple Jump. But Mario's entire responsiveness and control has become tighter, this is obviousely because Mario ate that entire cake and then bought some Sweatin' to the Oldies videos, a few laters later, BAM! More responsive Mario.

Because of how heavy the waterpack is, Mario can wall-jump over fences but can't longjump. No, it doesn't make any sense, does it...

Oh, and I'd love to see the Handstand from DK (GB) to come back! If you remember, he would flip over, walk (slowly) on his hands, and anything that landed on his feet (see: DK's barrels) would get deflected, instead of crushing him... :)

Dark Jaguar
Oh those shells stop if you jump on them, just make sure you don't bounce right back onto it and start it back up again.

Oh yes, here's another difference in behavior now that you made me think of it. In the games before it, all of them, those koopa shells would bounce forever, smashing through blocks even, thus allowing you to toss them into huge block mazes and smashing the place up, which as a kid is VERY fun and makes you feel powerful :D. In Super Mario 64, you get that same sense of power from the riding around while your character strangely glows with sparkles of invincibility and you ride around on lava, BUT the second you bump into something, the shell is destroyed instantly and it's all over. Your goal is to make sure NOT to bump into anything, something the ol' shell is known for before, because NOW it'll just vaporize and your killing spree will be over. Also, it allows you to go over lava without getting hurt, which is nice.

Ya know, I just thought of something I thought of LONG ago playing Super Mario World, but I still think it would be awesome. If they pull out a new Mario game adding back in a ton of amazing suits of power, they should produce the all-new Blaarg suit! If you recall, the Blarg was a lava creature, in fact the biggest thing Yoshi was capable of eating (and likely the spiciest) that looked like a sort of lava dragon. As you might imagine, my idea of the blarg suit would be a suit that makes you look like one, with Mario's head right about where the mouth would be, and it would let you swim around in lava just as effortlessly as the frog suit lets you swim in water, only more like a dragon, and Mario would be sorta sweatin' because the suit is still uncomfortably hot :D, and it would be COOL because it would let you get to secret passages or items you couldn't reach before, but you can't see TOO far into the lava because, well, it's LAVA, or maybe you could, whatever ended up being most fun.

Sacred Jellybean
I think the best example is the preview of Donkey Kong Racing showing characters sitting on those Buzzers, when clearly, in the all three preceding Donkey Kong Country games, if any character did so much as touch a Buzzer, said character would die/run away and get trapped inside a barrel. Yet, it's changed with no explanation.

OMG TEH CENTERPOINT OF TEH UNIVERSE HAS BEEN DESTROYED WERE ALL SCREWWWEEDD!!! boom?

I also want to point out that it's obviously easier for game designers to take characters from previous series of games and throw them into a new game of a whole different genre. It saves them the trouble of coming up with completely new characters for a game, I might add, where characters are basically trivial and it won't be marked for it's storyline, but more likely by simple, addicting gameplay. The players won't mind, either, given that the characters are likeable... in fact, it'll add to the charm of the game! Hell, in Super Smash Bros. case, it's the whole point: a light hearted video game for nerds who finally get to settle their debates of whether Pikachu could t0tally 0wn Captain Falcon.

Then, people around the world log onto Nintendo message boards and get into spiteful arguments over whether it's okay to bend/break the rules of their favorite characters for a completely new game of a different genre that, without any need for a storyline, also shouldn't have to explain the characters acting a little differently. When trying to put the pieces of the Zelda storyline together, do you stop and say, "wait wait wait, what about all those years Link spent smacking Mario in the face with his blade between sneaking leers at Peach?"

Whoops. Didn't mean to rant... I never got involved because this is just such a silly subject. Look at Ren & Stimpy: the only recurring elements in that show were the personalities of the two, and of course, a bunch of other shady side characters. Ren and Stimpy could be living on the streets in one episode, then in a random one-story house, sleeping in the same bed in another, or even randomly sneaking around in a jungle, with NO explanation, whatsoever - and it was excellent! One of the greatest cartoons I've ever seen.

lazyfatbum
Bean, it's not just because it's easier to throw existing characters in to something. It's actually easier to make up new characters that can be as shallow/deep as you need them to be for the single game. It all comes down to marketability of the game. When Sony wanted something to combat Mario Kart 64 they created Crash Racing where you could play as different Crash Bandicoot characters, trying to sell a game to people who are already familiar with the bandicoot series.

Unfortunately even the Bandicoot series was called kiddie by the kids who played PSX exclusively for its mature content. Sony realized later that a kart game with mature content, like a Twisted Metal kart would have done alot better but failed to capatilize on it. Instead, Sony completely abondoned the idea of a kart game, leaving it for Nintendo to soak it up in a genre-monopoly. XBox wont ever see a kart game because they think it will fail on their system for the demographics. 'Halo Kart' (with tiny military vehicles) would do really really well on the XBox, but you'll never see it because of Sony's failure to capatilize on a huge genre that equals alot of money and because Halo is a valuable liscense, if the Halo Kart game wasn't made really well, it would alienate the fans and lower their expectations of the Halo liscense, making it less popular which kills the rate of the game's shelf life between sequels.

Alot of companies are extremely jealous that Mario can be in any genre and it will sell extremely well on any system. Mario the Golfer (hand held or console), Mario the Kart racer (3-D, 2-D), Mario the Tennis player (pick a version), Mario the puzzle game Doctor, Mario the figting game, Mario the 3-D platformer, Mario the 2-D side scroller, Mario the 2-D mini games, Mario Paint, Mario the Role Playing Game, Mario ANYTHING you can imagine. You'll never see Sonic Golf, Jak and Dexter Tennis or Tomb Raider RPG, it just wont ever happen, and it's all because those companies live in fear of the cool factor and the marketability of their valued characters; They take no chances.

Banjo~Kazooie is making the leap to a new genre for the first time with Banjo Pilot. DKR was a cast of many Rare characters in a different land with a new arch nemises and a story that has nothing to do with any of the characters. But Banjo Pilot takes place in the world of B~K and uses B~K characters exclusively so if it does well we might see Banjo~Kazooie trying another genre a few years from now.

Dark Jaguar
Mario the painter!

Mario the... inventor! Mario's Machine, simlar to but totally different from "the incredible machine", Mario will be your guide as you solve various way too complicated engineering problems using mushrooms and springboards!

lazyfatbum
When I heard Miyamoto say "I thought Mario could use a new weapon, like a gun" I remember thinking: Holy shit, it's finally going to happen; Mario FPS.

But then it turned out to be the water cannon. :D

But who's to say that the next 'official' Mario game (Mario 128?) wont have multiplayer or co-op? Imagine playing multiplayer in a Mario game, the king of the hill, hold the flag stuff would work great but it would be awesome to see something like...

Gold-in-eye

Winter Wonder Land; Up to 4 players (Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, Princess). Whoever holds the Pot of Gold longest wins! Remembr that when holding the pot of gold you cannot let go of it or attack, you're much slower and your view is tinted bright green so it's hard to see! If you can hold it for longer than a minute, you might get chased by Wario! Use Sniper Shells to attack from huge distances, Proximity Bullet Bills that explode when someone gets close and the Golden Gum that lets you blow huge bubbles so you can fly while holding the Gold!

Perfect Darkland

Bowser's Castle; Bowser had his castle updated with super technology... unfortunately the engineers made it too small! The ceilings are too low to jump, so you use shells, fireballs, etc to battle in first person in Bowser's newly updated Techno-Castle! Up to 4 people can play with the addition of Mechas which are CPU controlled bots. You can have to 8 of them plus the 4 players with different grades of intelligence. Watch out for Slayer Sally's, they're like Bullet Bills that you can control and they want a big fat kiss! Use Tanooki cloaking to make yourself invisible!

Red Cap Alert

The sewers; Guard your base and protect your team's Hat from being stolen! Each player gets a team with 3 Sims each. Each sim will have a specific job, such as Doctor, Weapons Expert, Goalie and NINtenjas! Points are scored by returning the enemy Hat to your base!

Red Team: Mario's cap
Green Team: Luigi's cap
Blue Team: Waluigi's cap
Yellow Team: Wario's cap

Unreal Princess

Forest; (This mode has the best graphics) Up to 4 players try to save the princesses, but only one is real! Work together or go head to head to see who can solve the traps and rescue the real princess before Bowser gets her!

Mario Prime

Ancient Mushroom Kingdom Ruins; Everyone is wearing a Koopa shell! Turn in to a shell to roll along the ground and use half pipes! You can drop Vegetable bombs while in Morph Shell Mode. Players can only use weapons when they're out of their shell... it's also the only time you can be hurt!

Quarter and a Half-Life

Ghost House; One player is picked randomly as "IT"! Points are given for K.O.'ing IT. But IT can gain points by surviving! Watch out for King Boo and his minions! They'll chase who ever is IT!

GLOOM & DOOM!

Lava World; Baby Bowser is at it again! he's painted evil demons and monsters that have come to life in the Lava world and are getting ready to attack the Mushroom Kingdom! Each player has a FLUUD with a new feature; Fully Automatic Chain Squirt! But becareful, there's no water in Lava World to re-fuel and these monsters look thirsty! Who ever cleans up more demons wins! If all player can wipe up more than 100 demons all together, you get to face the ultimate Demon! Bill Gates in dirty overalls singing country music and using poorly realized Japanese marketing!


hehehe I cant think of any more :D Come on Nintendo, you KNOW you want to do it!

Dark Jaguar
Hello Halo!

You are on a giant rotating rainbow ring high above the Star Road and your goal is to race around crossing the start-finish line more than anyone else while killing all who race against you! Remember to aim up and take out people upsidedown above you!



lazy, ever played Yoshi Safari? That's a game where Mario totally DID use a gun! It was a super mega bazooka in fact! That was a fun game actually, where Mario rode on Yoshi and shot at enemies rather than just jumping on them, and in the end you pounded on Bowser with about a million shots of power until he was covered in bandages and ran away!

A Black Falcon
Oh yes, here's another difference in behavior now that you made me think of it. In the games before it, all of them, those koopa shells would bounce forever, smashing through blocks even, thus allowing you to toss them into huge block mazes and smashing the place up, which as a kid is VERY fun and makes you feel powerful . In Super Mario 64, you get that same sense of power from the riding around while your character strangely glows with sparkles of invincibility and you ride around on lava, BUT the second you bump into something, the shell is destroyed instantly and it's all over. Your goal is to make sure NOT to bump into anything, something the ol' shell is known for before, because NOW it'll just vaporize and your killing spree will be over. Also, it allows you to go over lava without getting hurt, which is nice.


So when Mario found his third dimension, turtle shells got changed somehow... :)

I think the old shells were cooler. They are a lot less useful in Mario 64...

I think the best example is the preview of Donkey Kong Racing showing characters sitting on those Buzzers, when clearly, in the all three preceding Donkey Kong Country games, if any character did so much as touch a Buzzer, said character would die/run away and get trapped inside a barrel. Yet, it's changed with no explanation.

Someone invented either a special saddle or a special suit? :) See, you can always make up SOME stupid reason for these things...

Great Rumbler
I think the old shells were cooler. They are a lot less useful in Mario 64...

Riding around on the shells was awesome! Sure, you might not have been able to use the shells to destroy blocks, but you COULD shoot around the stage and run over guys!

A Black Falcon
Okay, so old-style shells wouldn't work as well in 3d because most of the time they wouldn't hit anything. I guess that was the rationale for the skateboard... with YOU on it you could actually hit something... (though homing shells would be very cool...)

Great Rumbler
Maybe they'll do more with the shells in the next Mario game.

Dark Jaguar
THey are useful though, not really for the killing, but for the access to areas you couldn't get to before (remember that they let you skate over lava and super chilled water with ease).

And for that matter, coming up with an explanation in those cases, if you ask me, is WORSE than just having nothing at all. Think up one if you will, but as you said, an explanation would be very stupid if one was come up with, so just don't HAVE one. Stupidity is WORSE than just leaving it an open question.

A Black Falcon
But at least it's something... nothing just leaves a giant hole in the story.

That's why I said it's best to have them come up with the reason, and make it at least semi-plausible...

Dark Jaguar
It's something, but sometimes nothing really IS better than something. In something like Mario, it's part of the FUN that there's NO explanation whatsoever for some things. It's part of that magic. To be forced to come up with an explanation, even if you only have to come up with a half arsed one, kills some of that magic.

A Black Falcon
That's not true... unless the story you come up with is REALLY bad... :)

Dark Jaguar
Well I think so. I find a good part of the charm of worlds like Mario and Looney Toons, those sorts, come from a large amount of things being PURPOSEFULLY unexplained.

Look at Star Trek. One flaw of that show is that they feel like they have to explain every little thing to the nth degree. Star Wars, for instance, will do some things and not even try to explain them. It leaves it up to the viewer to figure it out. This is just an example of PART of what I'm trying to say though.

With something like Mario, a "through the looking glass" world where nothing makes sense, it's actually a big PART of the magic, to me at least, that suddenly something can change and have NO explanation at all for it, and not a single character in it seems to take a second to say "wait a sec" and they just accept it. It's part of the magic, and the comedy, that that's the case.

You know, something like:

"How much does that weigh?"
"HAM!"
"Ah, perfect."

And that all took place in a world that uses normal measurements for EVERYTHING else, up to that point anyway, where for a split second saying "ham" was perfectly acceptable, then later... from the guy who said "ham!"

"Hey there, how far away is it?"
"Sponge!"
"...THAT DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE!"

See? That is COMEDY right there, because it makes no frickin' sense!

lazyfatbum
We had the guy who created the 'Jason' character from Friday the 13th films at Fullsail a year ago. He did all the prosthetic, make up and 'acting' coaching for the person who was inside all that goop. He would often talk with the director (Sean Cunningham) about moments in the script where it would seem that Jason can move very quickly from place to place when we only see him walking... the guy who created Jason thought up ways for Jason to run but none of them were ever used in the scenes. Finally when he asked the director point blank: "How does he move so fast?" the director replied: "He teleports."

And to this day, on many Friday the 13th DVD extras and in countless interviews it was given away that Jason teleports as fact. John Carpenter (Halloween) made a point that Michael Myers cannot teleport, instead in order for Michael to appear to be at locations far away from eachother in brief periods of time, he simply had Michael Myers cloned; There are almost 600 of them now. It's so logical and yet so stupid, it must be true.

Dark Jaguar
Haha, exactly right! I totally agree with the point I THINK you are saying there, which is that an explanation is sometimes actually HARMFUL to the whole world or the "magic" of it and it's best sometimes just to have no explanation at all.

lazyfatbum
Yup. Sometimes by not telling or showing, you're creating a better character.

It doesn't always work, but when it does it's awesome. In the 1960's in "The Thing" you never saw the alien... ever. Since they didn't have a huge budget the director and producer both agreed that an alien is probably beyond most of our human comprehension, so it isn't seen and works really well. In Man On Fire (Directed by Tony Scott, brother to Ridley Scott), Denzel Washington's character goes through immense pain and tries to drink it away, and has scars on his hand. We never learn why he has this pain or those scars and just maybe, a backstory was never writen to explain why, but you leave the theater thinking about it and wondering who he is and what happened to him, as if he was a real person. Good stuff.

Dark Jaguar
I guess I should see Man On Fire, because that's the sort of thing I'm talking about right there. I can see what you are saying goes on. If they went out and SAID how he got those scars, you wouldn't be thinking about it yourself, and the mystery also wouldn't be there.

There's a famous artistic style from Japan that involves occlusion (which is the process of occluding so you know :D, actually I think I used the wrong word). Artists that use this style will draw SOME of whatever they are trying to and the rest will just be sorta hinted at but not actually drawn. Sometimes they will draw a person's face for instance, but not the hair, and the image will sorta just bleed to a solid "blank" color (usually white). It's a very great effect that couldn't be done if they actually drew ALL the detail.