View Thread : Nintendo wins. Realistic Zelda + NDS is better then you ever imagined


Smoke-X
This Nintendo conference was different. The tone was different. Nintendo's different.

It started with games. Lot's and lot's of games. Then the speaker came out and reiterated what we all know so well: Nintendo is about the games. Then he took a few jabs at Sony and Microsoft.

Then they showed us new games. MP2 and Starfox look incredible.

Finally we got to what we were all waiting for: The Nintendo DS. It's graphics are better then your best expectations. They talked about the multiplayer and how it's up to 16 players etc. Then he said something like "But maybe you want to play with someone a little farther away. Maybe a few time zones away. It has Wi-Fi! "This is beyond online, this is no line".

It ended with a surprise many of us have been waiting a long time for: "Realistic Zelda"!!! It's more then you can imagine. When the Zelda movie ended everything went black. Then the shape of a man holding a sword and a shield became visible. It was Shigeru Miyamoto weilding the master sword and Link's shield! There were even sound effects when he swung it! He said "No, I'm not Link. But I know him." :D :D :D Then he talked about how as in the past Zelda has changed. Link is different. He's grown up now. Then it was over.

I still have chills.

(All of that's from memory and it was long so forgive me if I got some of the details wrong.)

OB1
And that DS pic was real, D. Looks like it wasn't a hoax after all.

After getting a better look at it the DS looks mighty fine, and I can't believe it was running the Metroid Prime engine. How's that even possible? I must be missing something.

Best Nintendo press conference ever, easily.

Smoke-X
The DS is the real deal. And while people will get a chance to play with the DS tomorrow PSP games are still only on PC emulators. Oh and you'll all be able to get your own DS THIS YEAR!

Nintendoes what Sony don't.

OB1
Did they give a release date for it? I didn't get any audio...

And it's supposed to be a N64-quality system, so how the hell was Prime running on it?

Great Rumbler
Nintendo = Best E3 showing ever.

Sony = Who even cares?

OB1
Where is WW2, though? Miyamoto and everyone said that there is a new Zelda game in development using the WW engine, and they even announced it at GDC. This realistic Zelda game can't be it, or perhaps WW2 was just a cover? I really love the cel-shaded Zelda design, though this new one blows me away. Hmm..

Great Rumbler
I'm thinking it may have been a cover, but they might be saving it for later or something.

OB1
Well that NOA guy said that it's going to be released in March 2005 and that we'll get its official title tomorrow. And I could have sworn that I saw a flash of the Wind Waker engine in that conference.

Dark Jaguar
wi-fi! Frickin' wire fire! That's exactly the right online solution! (Um, wait, I'll need to be near a wire fire hub to get it to work of course.... now where in Tulsa would I find that? Hmm, time to move!)

Smoke-X, from what you've said, it sounds amazing. I saw a pic a while back, and it looked like a nice little system. Back to the old system size it seems. I'll need to check out how powerful the thing is myself of course. Surfing... AWAY!

(Oh yeah, everyone get on MSN, while I use Trillian, and let's have an E3 party tonight! (woo) E3 party tonight! (wha?) E3 party tonight! (ooooh!)

Great Rumbler
Here's the pics:

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/1.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/2.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/3.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/4.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/5.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/6.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/7.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/8.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/9.jpg

http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/10.jpg

Wow.

OB1
Oh man, that second pic looks like it came straight out of ICO. Nintendo, I want to have your child.

Great Rumbler
Nintendo is really making a turn-around from last year!

Sales for realistic Zelda: 80 Bazillion.

OB1
I hope it comes out soon. Imagine if it is their surprise holiday game. Haha, that would certainly make MS and Sony piss their pants.

Great Rumbler
It looks like Nintendo is making a serious effort to get themselves back in the race.

OB1
Indeed. Now all they need is an online plan...

Great Rumbler
Wi-Fi!

A Black Falcon
Wi-fi for the DS is a start at least... but they need it on the major consoles as well. ASAP.

big guy
i'm made happy by this

Great Rumbler
As are we all.

OB1
Well... most of us.

*looks at ABF*

Great Rumbler
:shake:

Dark Jaguar
The only viable online solution for portable gaming, thinking about it, really is wi-fi. I mean, they'd have to aling with some phone company and add phone features, or just make about a billion add-ons for the many ports so you end up holding a phone while playing. Besides that, the whole setup would be expensive for both us and Nintendo, and really, in the end it wouldn't really work. Think about how badly a similar setup worked over in Japan with their version of Pokémon Crystal, and the N-Gage. No, Wire Fire really is the best solution. Nintendo doesn't have to do much, due to the very adaptable nature of wire fire the system itself will tell the wire fire network to find the opponents without the wi-fi actually having to have anything programmed in. Of course, you DO need to be near certain parts of the wi-fi in order to jack in. One's best bet is to hang out near a large business building and piggy back on their systems. Due to how it works, it's not hacking in any sense and in fact the entire reason they set it up like that is so people can jack in (though namely not for this purpose :D). Point is, you still gotta get yourself to these places, until wi-fi gateways are set up all across towns. This whole concept of an "open" service like this that anyone is able to use, and that's it's actual STRENGTH, is nice, and it's free! Well, some gateways have passwords involved, and that's another limiter. Ya gotta find the ones you are allowed to get into. Anyway, it's still the best solution and as wi-fi spreads around the country gaining momentum, it'll surely be the online solution of choice. The entire concept of having to get a specially designed server to matchmake in games is negated with the thing, and ya HAVE to love that no matter WHO you are!

Online on the console, that's still the one place they are behind on. We'll see... I will say that if the wi-fi method is spread to the rest of the internet, Nintendo's cost concerns will go out the window there too.

EdenMaster
http://www.cube-europe.com/games/zelda2/5.jpg

Volvagia...?

Dark Jaguar
More like Balrogia!

A Black Falcon
What do you mean, you wouldn't need a server network? I know wi-fi would connect you to the internet, but Nintendo would still need to run some kind of matchmaking service, and that requires servers, I'd expect... right?

OB1
Man, this realistic Zelda looks amazing. I still love WW's look, but this is also extremely awesome. Especially since it reminds me of ICO so much:

Zelda:
http://www.nintendorks.com/kevyn/archives/zelda3.jpg

ICO:
http://tcforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=789 http://tcforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=790 http://tcforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=791

Dark Jaguar
Wi-fi, at least from what I've read (and keep in mind I could have gotten it wrong), can kinda self-operate. What happens is the various systems linked up to them basically just marks itself as "there", that's where the privacy thing comes in anyway. Essentially, all these wi-fi hubs are constantly sharing data with each other on who's connected to the network. All the software does is request a list of currently connected "GBDSMETHUNT" tagged "computers" linked up (that's just my example of an all too realistic tag name), and it'll present it with that list. I believe the various computer can select to hide themselves from other people on the network though.

Anyway, that's the gist of it from what I've read. Such a system basically self-updates a constant list and becomes a free matchmaking service :D. Well, so long as the connection TO the wi-fi network remains free at any rate... This of course means potential bogging down, but I don't know enough about it to say how bad it could potentially get.

Laser Link
Wow. Wow. I just keep watching the Zelda movies at nintendo.com, and it's amazing. I nearly cried when I saw the orange sunset. And watching Link charge through enemies on Epona, hacking them as he goes. Amazing.

Oh, and how about those DS games, like Metroid Prime: Hunter and Mario 64x4.

I haven't been this excited about games in years. And to think I was so busy with projects and finals that I almost forgot about today.

OB1
Update from IGN: (http://cube.ign.com/articles/513/513962p1.html)

May 12, 2022 - IGNcube on Tuesday uncovered new details about Nintendo's upcoming action-adventure Legend of Zelda for GameCube. A couple of important questions about the game have now been answered.

Leading up to the pre-E3 2004 show, gamers believed that Nintendo was working on a sequel to Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker, which would in turn indicate that the action-adventure would be cel-shaded in nature and would also likely feature a young version of hero Link. But as the newly redesigned Legend of Zelda proves, the company has instead reverted to a presentation more akin to the dark and gritty look of Link and Gannondorf previewed at Space World 2000 in Japan.

Nintendo however confirmed to IGNcube that the newly redesigned title does in fact run on a modified version of the Wind Waker engine. The company also revealed that the new Legend of Zelda is in fact not a remake of any kind, but instead an entirely original undertaking.

Meanwhile, more gameplay details were divulged. Link will feature the same eye-tracking system used in Wind Waker. He'll be able to knock all types of enemies off their horses and send them crashing to the ground. And a new dynamic camera system will shoot some dungeons from new perspectives. Evidently when Link explores some still-unrevealed dungeons the camera will pan back and shoot the action from a top-down angle. Players will be able to see parts of the 3D maze that lies in wait. But when the character encounters an enemy the camera will seamlessly sweep in again to shoot the battle from the normal behind-the-back perspective.

Neither Shigeru Miyamoto nor Eiji Aonuma will be directing the Legend of Zelda title. Both serve as producers. A new, still-secret director will helm the project.

A new, longer Legend of Zelda video that shows off never-before-seen areas and scenarios will be previewed behind closed doors at E3. IGNcube will have eyes on impressions for readers shortly after we see it.

Wow, so this is WW 2. Too bad Aonuma isn't directing as I really enjoyed his emphasis on storytelling. I wonder what he's working on now...

Laser Link
Does anybody know if this is playable on the show floor? It sounds like it isn't, if Nintendo is showing video behind closed doors. Which leads me to believe it will not really make the March 2005 release date. Wind Waker was playable at the E3 before it was released, if you'll remember.

I have a felling this will slip into Fall 2005, and will be the last big game for GameCube. I was thinking that perhaps this isn't really a GC game, but since it is running of the WW engine I think it is. It just looks far too good to be true, like it is a tech demo or FMV or something. The lgihting is amazing, the models look very real, the animation is smooth, and on and on and on.

OB1
It is most definitely a GC game, that much is 100% certain. It looks great but not so great that it couldn't be done on the GC. RE4, anyone? That also looks amazing in motion. The art isn't as nice as Zelda's though, so it doesn't look as good IMO. But there are plenty of flaws in the Zelda screens so I'm certain it's running off the real engine.

It won't be playable at the show, and I don't know if there will be more videos shown. Yeah it doesn't look like it'll make it out by March 25 because of that fact, but IGN says that it's very far into development, so who knows...

A Black Falcon
But if it was THAT far into development, why not have it playable? Still having it there at all is great...

Oh, and yeah, the graphics are good but not beyond this generation, certainly. And I wonder who's directing... I thought Aonuma was doing the main Zeldas now. Interesting.

It's also interesting that it uses the WW engine, given how different this game looks...

OB1
Using the same engine does not mean that it will use the same models and textures. OoT used a modified version of the Mario 64 engine. MM also use the Mario64/OoT engine, but they did not change the look of the game. It could have looked very different.

A Black Falcon
I wonder... will Hyrule be flooded? Sure doesn't look like it. They have some explaining to do...

Dark Jaguar
No they don't, BEAT Wind Waker ABF! That's all the explanation you need! Really, it will all make sense if you do. If you can't be bothered, read this spoiler to understand.

You see, at the VERY end, Hyrule remains flooded, OLD Hyrule. They decide rather than trying to ressurect the past like Ganon was trying to do, they would look to the future and search for a new land to call Hyrule. So, at the very end, Link and Zelda (Tetra) sail off into the unknown to find a new land to call Hyrule. If this is a grown up Hero of Winds, and from his appearence with the somewhat unkept hair and all I think it is, then I suspect they have finally found the new Hyrule and are attempting to rid it of evil so they can finally claim it as New Hyrule.

OB1
I really hope it's the same Link, or at least continues on from WW. Nintendo has been doing a pretty good job of matching the stories together and it would be a real shame if they didn't continue on the same path.

Or have it take place after Zelda 2, that would be terrific. As long as the stories still continue to connect.

A Black Falcon
That partially explains it, but fully? No. We've discussed this before, they don't really think these things through... just in a vague sense, it seems...

Like, some of those scence looked exactly like the Hyrule in OoT, you know...

OB1
Aonuma does, and he proved with WW that he cares a lot about plot and character development. For the first time ever Ganon was portrayed as more than just a shallow evil character. I'm sad that he'd not directing this game, but he is still a producer so that gives me some hope.

Dark Jaguar
Not really. I mean, a large emtpy plain is a large empty plain in the end. They all look pretty similar. Nothing in that movie really looked exactly like some special area in OOT, not to me anyway. Could it be? Probably, the entire game might have nothing to do with Wind Waker, but I'm more willing to believe it is the sequel to Wind Waker and that is the new Hyrule.

A Black Falcon
One part looked like the bridge over the river right near Hyrule Castle Town, with the edge of the map right beyond -- a hill, not a silly impassable wall, this time... :)

OB1
Yes I'm also hoping that's the new Hyrule, DJ, and that this is a new Link. After WW Link and Zelda establish a new Hyrule, then time passes and they die, fast forward a hundred or so years and Ganon returns so a new Link must emerge so save the kingdom.

Dark Jaguar
Well, considering that Hyrule Castle in LTTP had a moat as well, that's not really a surprise. I mean, I'm fairly certain that moat is man-made anyway. Anyway, I wanna know where the humans came into the picture. In OOT, it seemed like everyone was Hylian, didn't notice any humans myself anyway. By WW, humans are all over, and people with pointed ears, as the hylians are called, are distinct from them. By LTTP, hylians are outnumbered by humans. In Zelda 1, back to mostly hylians with only shopkeepers and sages being human, far as I can tell anyway.

Eh, no matter. Anyway, it's likely they would just create a hyrule castle very similar to the original. Not from memory of the in-game castle designers, but just because the game designers felt like it :D.

big guy
what if the director of this new zelda turned out to be...DENIS DYACK!!! hehe, that'd be rad.

anyway. i'm really digging this new link...the chainmail armor under his tunic is sweet and he looks like a complete badass...especially in that character art picture of him. the only thing i don't like are his boots. i liked his big clunky "i'm gonna kick out your teeth" boots from the spaceworld demo (they're also featured in soul caliber 2). these ones are kinda wussy looking and thin...

these are definately current gen graphics...you can really see some low polygon counts in some of the screens, especially on epona, but it still looks f'n sweet.

i'm so happy about all this it makes me wanna touch myself.

OB1
I don't think Dyack is ready for Zelda yet, and I'd prefer to see someone else at the helm. I'm betting that it's Mario Sunshine's director, since he was supposed to show off a new game this E3 and there's no sign of Mario 128. Or maybe not... :dunno:

big guy
i dunno, i like dennis dyack...

he seems like a cool dude

Great Rumbler
Yeah, Dennis Dyack is cool.

big guy
but is he zelda cool?

Dark Jaguar
What's wrong with the boots? They look very durable and comfortable, and that's what's needed in a leather adventurer's boot. It fits too, along with the tunic, hat, and TIGHTS, ya know?

big guy
i still want him to look like he can kick out some teeth

like he does in this picture (ignore the purple tunic)
http://media.cube.ign.com/media/016/016888/img_1691171.html

Great Rumbler
It's the new mature Link!!!!!

http://cubemedia.ign.com/cube/image/miyamotoknowslink_1084328075.jpg

:eek:

UltraMarioMan
I AM SOOOOOOO printing that out and taping it next to my PC!!

Great Rumbler
Hahaha! :D

Sacred Jellybean
I heart that image!!!~~~

A Black Falcon
Tunic and tights was standard attire for a lot of people in the middle ages... :)

Great Rumbler
Yeah, that image is awesome.

OB1
New Link looks soooo much better than SW2000 Link, SSB Link, and SC2 Link combined. Come on, don't even suggest otherwise. :nono:


But Shiggy Link detroys all of them! I want a Zelda game with Shiggy Link! Who's with me???!

Sacred Jellybean
Me!! I wish there was a Zelda body model in Perfect Dark, so I could stick Miyamoto's head on it.

OB1
Now someone needs to find some good Reggie pictures.

OB1
http://home.comcast.net/~drozmight/reggie/

Dark Jaguar
Actually, looking at the boots in SC compaired to his boots in the new game, I think I prefer the new look. The big clunky boots fit the exxagerated features style of Link in OOT for example, but this seems to be more slender and super-tall style, FF8-ish actually.

OB1
Link doesn't look like a girl. :)

A Black Falcon
No, he looks like a medieval person.

You know the Romans thought that only barbarians wore pants? :)

Great Rumbler
Reggie = Awesomeness.

OB1
ABF, you were replying to me or DJ? Use quotes, dammit.

A Black Falcon
Quotes? But those are for... people who want to be understood...

OB1
...

Great Rumbler
:erm:

lazyfatbum
At least he's honest.

OB1
So lazy, what do you think of the new Zelda?

big guy
i think i like it, but i also think i like big ass boots. you guys are all lame for thinking otherwise!!!! :shakeit:

Great Rumbler
From MSN:

realistic zelda!! gah!!!!!! *faints*

smoke this is exactly what we wanted

Now we get to have super realistic zelda and cel shaded zelda!

I'd say he's somewhat excited. :)

OB1
:)

A Black Falcon
... right, OB1 missed our chat, didn't he...

OB1
By that time my wrists hurt so much from typing at work and home all day that I couldn't stand to join a chat.

A Black Falcon
It was E3 (well, the day before, but that's the big day for Nintendo announcements...) so a bunch of people were there. :)

OB1
Yeah I know.

-iLluSiON-
should have stuck with the overhead 2d view... that's zelda to me :(

Great Rumbler
Huh.

OB1
Well there's a new 2D Zelda coming, you know.

Great Rumbler
It's The Legend of Zelda: Da Minish Cap!

Smoke-X
It'd be the funniest thing ever if the commercial for this new Zelda game were a remix of the Zelda rap performed by a real rapper. :D

OB1
:D

EdenMaster
I'm trying to keep myself from getting too excited about this game. It looks incredible and I want it now...but...my mind keeps saying that the last time we got a new Zelda, we were promised this:

http://home.online.no/~jarn-eli/zeldacube3.jpg

...and we got this:

http://archive.gamespy.com/gssked/march16-march22/zelda.jpg

OB1
I'm very happy that we got Wind Waker, though I do agree that it was a dumb move to show off SW2000 Link and then SW2001 Link.

A Black Falcon
WW might not have gotten the reaction it did if in SW2000 they'd just shown cel Link...

Dark Jaguar
That was just an FMV in the end, and it ended up just being a small part of a long slide show. That was only saying "Oh, we tossed this together to show a Zelda game will eventually be on our amazing new Gamecube". They never actually PROMISED it would look like that though. This however, from what I can tell, is actually in-game graphics. It doesn't show any elements that make me think "FMV" and seems honestly like it's basically tapping the GCN and the WW engine to it's very limits. I just hope it isn't one of those "magically degrading games" that just sorta looks worse and worse as we get closer and closer to launch date.

Basically what convinces me is that they went on and on about how this game is coming along. Also, it obviously has a lot of work already in it. That first Zelda movie was basically tossed together. Look at that Spaceworld FMV, and you'll see it's really not the greatest quality, even compaired to in-game cinema scenes. It really does look amateur level. This however shows a LOT of work. It's pretty much a promise it'll be keeping this look in the end product. Note that the gameplay could change a million times, but then again we have no idea what the gameplay is like except for a few battle related things.

I sure hope this is set after Wind Waker, using that same Link... I guess I already said that...

Eh, anyway, I wonder what the enemy will be? If it's not Wind Waker's sequel, likely Ganon. If it IS, then it really couldn't be Ganon I suppose. Oh well, The Nightmares, Shadow Link, and Majora all show last bosses can be awesome without being Ganon.

Great Rumbler
I really doubt that this Zelda game will magically become something different.

Oh and I wouldn't worry about the graphics becoming less as it comes closer to release, the graphics are good but they're not FMV.

EdenMaster
Oh, don't get me wrong. Wind Waker was a great game, a very well done entry into the Zelda series. My only complaint is that we saw beautiful footage at Spaceworld, so that is what we assumed the next game would be, then we got the cel-shaded Wind Waker which, while good, wasn't what fans wanted. They wanted what they saw at Spaceworld.

:link:

Dark Jaguar
I know it's not FMV, but I'm talking about something like Fable, where as time went on, they kept having to alter the game to get it to work flawlessly on the XBox. Still are doing that. Fortunatly, they seem to have reached exactly the level the XBox can do. While not FMV, I wonder if this is actually running on GCN hardware (making it the best looking game on the system if you ask me), or is just what they have done before actually optimizing it for the GCN.

OB1
When has a Nintendo game ever looked progressively worse as development went on? They always look better. The early Fable stuff wasn't even running off an X-Box, but this Zelda clip was running off a Gamecube.

lazyfatbum
It's kinda funny that people bring up WW as an example of bad graphics. It's the best cel shading anyone is going to see this generation and maybe the next. I've heard tech-heads argue that the XBox cant do cel shading to the level that WW did on Gamecube. I mean like it or not, believe it or not, WW is a major accomplishment and uses high-end architecture in hardware and software to create highly advanced graphics and is arguably a showpiece to the abilities of EAD as technical and visual artists.

I can see what's going to happen... Nintendo is going to stray from the WW style like it never existed and focus on the realistic Zelda. Which is fine, I love both styles. But WW is like... it's like retro and brand new at the same time. It feels, looks and plays like the very first 8 bit Zelda in beautiful 3-D.

I really hope the style stays as a series. Did you guys notice that all the 2-D Zelda's from Four Swords on out are using the art style of WW in 2-D? It's so awesome, and plus, every single game except OoT Link is a young boy... not a young man. I mean nothing beats seeing and playing a game that does it's best to look like real life, the new Zelda is at a point where it's photo realistic and manages to have an awesome artistic flare as well. 30% OoT, 10% Lord of the Rings and 10% Wind Waker and 50% stuff we've never seen before. It's going to be awesome.

But i'm going to miss seeing that little Ninja Link that spins his sword so hard he gets dizzy and makes all those funny facial expressions. The Link in WW hard arguably more personality than any other Link.

Dark Jaguar
Okay lazy, I have to be a stickler on a few things. First off, Link was a young man in Zelda 2 as well. It says so in the inscruction manuel, and it's also obvious due to him being as tall as the adults in the game, not the children in it. He was also a young man in Link's Awakening, though that couldn't really be shown except in illustrations.

Wind Waker's look is truly amazing actually. The entire art style from the shading to the modelling is obviously, to me anyway, meant to resemble old world drawings back before 3D perspective, but it IS in 3D, so you know, it's cool. I came to this stunning realization however only because of the game's intro, where it was showing a mural of the Ocarina of Time legend using that same art style, and then getting into the game, realizing all the models have that same exxagerated arm length and faces and such, I immediatly liked it. As I'd said, it was never the celshading I didn't like, it was the modelling, but realizing what they were going for changed my mind on that.

lazy, I will say that Wind Waker, while fun, was somewhat incomplete and too easy for my tastes. I think they should revert to the first hint system, well, maybe not the old man, but the occasional owl statue or large tablet with a cryptic clue inscribed on it. Those were the best, because while it did reveal secrets, it did it in a way you had to interpret. So, it'd say like "The answer lies in the stars above.." and you're all like 'What?", and then suddenly it hits you, "OOOOH!! Stars ABOVE!". "Hints" like "HEY! Look at that stalagtite, don't you have something that could knock it down forming a bridge to the other side where you have to lure Armos Statues onto 4 switches in an order I'll tell you when we get there?" are just far too blatent. Give hints, but make them CRYPTIC hints I say. A nice code to break.

Anyway, I don't think Nintendo will stray from it like it never existed. I think they are just going to continue trying all sorts of different artistic styles. One of these days, we'll see something resembling Picasso :D. I know I'd love seeing the people's reaction to "nose above left eye Link"! The artistic style they use I think will ALWAYS be based on what they think best expresses the story and gameplay, as it should be.

About Four Swords, yeah I loved WW's look in FS from day one. I thought it looked amazing. Four Swords Adventures however seems to be using LTTP's art style (which I can't really relate to any real world style at the moment) mixed with a sketchy chalk drawing art style. I love that too.

Here's the thing, I'm fine with whatever artistic direction they decide to take the series in. However, they really need to focus on returning the challenge to the game. I don't want the game constantly bashing me over the head with the answers any more. As I've said, even the items started solving puzzles for you, what with that hook shot's "GRAPPLE HERE YOU MORON!" icon and such. Delaying the game a little longer to add some more dungeons to it is also something I can stand. The delays are only for a few months, but the game is set in stone after that point. Now, I won't pretend the game was as lacking in any sort of real puzzles as Star Fox Adventures was (Seriously, when the game has icons hovering over ALL action points, and the second you try selecting an item it automatically selects the right one from the list, how can you possibly be stumped by ANY puzzles?), but it did cross the line into "too easy" territory. OOT sorta hovered near it, but it still had plenty of stumpers that lacked any hints at all so it was fine. That was the first to stop giving the cryptic hints I loved though... Return those, and let little kids get stuck in the game. I mean, I was a little kid and loved it when a game stumped me, and that's how Zelda and other adventure games that had puzzles got so very popular to start with. Don't take what made it popular to start with away on the hunch it might increase sales even more. You'll alienate the fans at a certain point.

Eh, anyway, rant over, just restating my old opinions for reminder.

A Black Falcon
Just one thing: Link, in the artwork, is the same age in LA as he is in LttP. The LttP Link is also older.

As for the rest, I think I've (and everyone else) said enough times now all the various ways I found the game too easy and flawed... good game, but because of difficulty and length (as in, the stupid Triforce hunt is a bad replacement for two dungeons) it is flawed. But the graphics are great. I wouldn't have minded if the next title kept the WW graphics... what I really want is a return to a more challenging game design.

Dark Jaguar
Nor would I, though I would expect them to eventually try some new art style. I expect the same after this, eventually. The important thing is that they keep coming up with new ways to express the game visually.

And yes, we both agree that challenging game design is the most important thing. Challenge isn't EVERYTHING mind you, but it IS important.

A Black Falcon
WW didn't really do much ELSE wrong, so there's only so many flaws I could be talking about for them to improve... :)

Challenge, more dungeons, and no stupid Triforce hunt...

lazyfatbum
Link's version history:

lazyfatbum
I made this to show you that Link is usually a young boy.

Link was only an adult once which we saw in Ocarina of Time. This was the first time Link became a man with pubes and esophageal burning.

In Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link, he was still a child, well, a teenager. This is probably why you think he was an adult since he had things such as knees and elbows which he didn't previously have. I would agree that he is slightly older, but still not an adult.

The Link used in Link's Awakening is the same model used in the Oracle series and you can clearly see he is a child, even in the artwork it's showcased that Link isn't an adult - Probably the same age as Zelda 2's Link. In the 12 to 14 range.

Young Link from Ocarina of Time was reused in Majora's Mask. Link is 11 years old as Young Link. Young Link is the character we all know and love from almost every Zelda game. In almost all adventures, it is mentioned that Link is "the age of becoming a man" or puberty. But not passed it.

In Wind Waker, Link is 11-13 years old. So is Zelda.

So there you have it. In every game but one (not counting the yet unnamed GC Zelda), Link is in the range of 11 to 13. In OoT he became 18 years old only because of the Triforce that knew he couldn't defeat Ganondorf as a child.

And... I’m spent. *twiddles thumbs*

Dark Jaguar
To quote the instruction booklet for Zelda 2:

"One day, a strange mark, exactly like the crest of the kingdom, appeared on the back of Link's hand as he approached his 16th birthday."Also, those pics show what I'm talking about. It's not his elbows and knees. Compare him to the sprites of townspeople and then to children. He is as tall as any adult, and twice the height of all children. Compare him to all the adults and then to the children, and there are plenty there to compare to, and you'll see he is easily adult size, and looks like an adult. He's just a bit taller than a number of the townspeople too. Finally, everyone TREATS him like an adult in the game. There is another quote here for you. This from a scroll Link was given when the crest appeared.
"I have decided to cast a spell on all of Hyrule. A crest will appear on a young man with that character who has been brought up correctly, has gained many kinds of experiences and has reached a certain age. My point here is that the crest was only to appear when he had become old enough.

Another note, in OOT we have no idea how old Link was as an adult. It's never stated that he's 11 at the start of the game, so we couldn't know if he's 18 or not. Considering the whole 18 thing is just our world's deal, I would suspect it could be a couple years younger, maybe older but then his young form wouldn't be that young. All things considering, I'd wager 8-10.

As for LTTP and LA, well the instruction booklet pictures would lead me to believe he's an adult there too. That's obviously drawn in Japan in all the booklets, so it's not just American mistranslation. Of course, I suppose it could be ignored and he could have just been 13 or so. Anyway, my point is that Link was most certainly almost 16 in Zelda 2. That makes him an adult, by most standards of the times this world was sorta modelled after. He's been an adult before OOT, and Zelda 2 was definitly it. Young Link in Zelda 1, adult Link in Zelda 2. Worked out well. Also the booklet for Zelda 2 makes it very clear that the Link in Zelda 2 IS the Link from Zelda 1, only grown up. It's stated in terms that can't be taken any other way.

Here's the thing, Miyamoto has been quoted to say a LOT of conflicting things about Zelda, but in the end I must suffice it all to be a result of bad translation. I can see how a few grammar steps here or there could easily be taken the wrong way by a not so good translator. Anyway, in those first Zelda games, the booklets told much of the story, and while they could be bad translations themselves the illustrations fit it, and they are obviuosly Japanese pictures, because at the time whenever a company decided to change illustrations when translating a game, we'd get something like the Megaman 1 cart art.

A Black Falcon
Huh? As DJ says, I'd take that artwork to show that before OoT, Link had never been a young boy. There are really two ages for Link, child and teenager. He's a child only in OoT and WW; in all the rest, he's a teenager. There is no other explanation. Oh, and it's not a mistranslation when what we're basing it on isn't the words but the ingame and manual art!

Sorry, a bit wrong. He's also a child in the two Oracles games. But he's definitely a teenager in LoZ, AoL, LttP, LA, and OoT.

Dark Jaguar
No no, the artwork for Zelda 1 clearly shows that he FIRST appeared as a child. Zelda 2's artwork showed him all grown up, and the story did too. Just looking at the illustrations in the Zelda 1 booklet reveals he was CERTAINLY a young boy.

Here's a quote in the Zelda 1 booklet that shows he's certainly considered a boy, not a man, in that game. All was not lost, a young <b>lad</b> appeared.
Just goes to show you, you SHOULD "look up the manuel for details". :D

Now, LTTP is a mystery, what with the illustrations saying one thing, and the voice they added to LTTP being young Link's voice saying another (usually that being "uwahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii"). So, I'd say that LTTP had him in that mid-range that lazy was talking about.

A Black Falcon
Ok, so he was also young in LoZ. But he wasn't young in AoL, or LttP, or LA... yes, LttP doesn't make it as clear as LA (with a intro that clearly shows his age), but based on manual art I'd say that he's almost exactly the same age as the LA Link.

Dark Jaguar
Yeah, though considering he was living with his uncle and is treated like a kid during the game, I'd wajor he was supposed to be a kid there, or at least young teen.

A Black Falcon
Not a kid, I'd think... again, isn't his ingame sprite too big?

Dark Jaguar
The in game sprites for just about every game back then would make you think pretty much ALL the characters are kids, except for small things. Anyway, Link did seem shorter than the average adult by a bit.

lazyfatbum
I'll go for 16 in Zelda 2, but that's still not an adult in the sense of a 'man' like OoT's ADULT Link. As I said, he is the only adult in the series. All other Link's are 'becoming' men, or growing in to puberty. Zelda is always the same age as Link and Zelda's "Time of Destiny" (to be abducted by evil) is when she enters puberty - If she survives puberty, she can give birth to an heir and thus Hyrule will live in peace forever. In OoT, Link and Zelda (as adults) stopped Ganondorf from existing (so he no longer existed in the past either) and kept him hidden in the sacred realm (the future no longer exosted, so Link returned to being a child). Which as we know will become the golden land (the perfect world) that is sealed by the 6 sages and then the Dark World, which exists only because of Ganondorf. Ganondorf and Aghinem (Ganondorf's earthly medium) both said many times "How is it that my plans is disruped by such a young boy?".

In order for Link to be "all grown up" he would have to be atleast 18 in OoT as adult Link. He is seven years older than he was as a child, so do the math.

This next Zelda game, i'm assuming he's an adult (18+). If this is true, then it will be the second time in the Zelda universe that we will play as an adult Link.

A Black Falcon
As I said, OoT's "Adult" Link is also a teenager... certainly no older than 18, and 16 is possible. So it's not that big a gap.

Okay, he might be a bit older in OoT than he was in LttP. I don't think we have enough evidence to know for sure either way, really. But he wasn't a little kid in LttP.

AoL? I haven't read that manual, but the ingame sprite is definitely not a child. 16? Maybe.

And finally (it's very clear he's young in Oracles), LA. He is obviously not a kid. How old? It really depends on how you interpret the artwork... but he isn't young. And considering that the game is set as a 'Link went searching for answers after having previous adventures' backstory, the story backs that up...

OB1
According to Miyamoto Link is 16 in both OoT and the new Zelda. Here's a quote from the E3 roundtable:

But since then, we've been left with a very big question: and that was, what are we going to do when we decide to make Link a teenager again -- a 16-year-old Link. So after Wind Waker we tried several different models and made varied versions of them. Ultimately we decided that in showing a teenage Link really the best style of expressing him would be something that's closer to our graphical style in Ocarina of Time.


He's 16 in the new Zelda, and he said again referring to OoT. So "adult" Link is just a teenager.

A Black Falcon
That is exactly what I've been saying -- there have been only two (unless you argue that LttP's one was under 16, which I'd disagree with) Link ages. ~10 and ~16.

OB1
I wasn't disagreeing with you.

A Black Falcon
Lazy is.

OB1
I'm not lazy.

A Black Falcon
Umm... no, I thought you were! :rolleyes:

Dark Jaguar
lazy, um, your whole puberty thing might work in horror movies, but there's nothing at all in the whole Zelda storyline that says her ability to provide an heir is somehow hinted at as being an important part of the story. I'd HATE for that to be the case anyway, because it's just so shallow. It's not like Ganon kidnaps her for any reason other than her immediate usefulness. I doubt there's any hidden meanings behind the ages at ALL.

Anyway, why would he have to be 18 anyway? He's adult Link, but likely not adult in today's traditional sense. No need to go by today's legal definitions ya know. He is very likely to be about 17 I'd say, considering young Link couldn't be older than 10. I suppose it's possible, but the only age lock needed is that whatever age they both are, there has to be a 7 year difference.

Anyway, 16 is certainly old enough to be considered an adult in that sort of world. That's especially true when you consider that young Link's age in OOT was considered time to be an adult, and he's younger than an adult jew, the youngest human adult there is in the current world!

Anyway, I don't go by the legal definition for these games, since Hyrule doesn't have America's laws, just enough physical maturity to look like an adult, which he does in a couple of games before OOT. LA, that one's odd too. The artwork at the very start of the game clearly shows an adult, but the artwork for the photos is like a detailed version of the in game sprites. That's just different art style I suppose. Anyway, everyone in LA treats him like an adult, and the story in the instruction booklet also makes it clear he's an adult. LA too had him as an adult. LTTP on the other hand, I lean towards him being a kid, or at least an older kid, like 13 or so. Yep, 3 years makes all the difference. You know how fast kids sprout up.

Eh, no matter. The way I've always seen it is like this.

Young Link, innocent and carefree, is thrown into an adventure that is bigger than he could have imagined against a threat he could never have known. He goes through many strange unexpected things and slowly gains a lot more power and wisdom, so long as he keeps the courage to continue in his heart. By the end, overthrowing Ganon himself, he has matured into an adult mentally, in a way that sorta hints at how people actually grow up in the real world, if it was set to the tone of an adventure with monsters.

As an adult, wary of another threat, he leaves on his own to seek out a new adventure and finds it, this time the evil is brought about by his own actions, in a manner of speaking, and he must face off against this new threat unlike Ganon but still evil.

Each Link, by my reconing, has had this same experience. OOT Link had the second adventure as a slightly older version of his young self (likely only a year), but the mind was already set in that state. OOT faced against ganon in his youth, then went on to face against another land's threat, a threat not to himself but to people he didn't know, but wanted to help. From a somewhat "selfish" (in a manner of speaking) saving of the world to a saving of ANOTHER world he doesn't even know.

LTTP Link (if I'm correct in my assumption) after defeating Ganon in younger years (depending on how young he was) and reclaiming the triforce to make his own world right again, set off fearing Ganon's return, and ended up finding another strange world of dreams, where he fought against both his own and the Wind Fish's nightmares. In the end, he finally chose to awaken the wind fish and end the dream, leaving himself stranded at sea to save a stranger.

Hyrule Fantasy Link in his youth defeats Ganon and saves his world which is in terrible ruin. Years later, the world is in relative peace, but creatures still hunt Link for revenge and revival of their master. He finds out about ANOTHER Zelda, unlike the one he saved years ago, in an eternal slumber from long before his time, and despite the danger to himself goes on to save this stranger and reclaim something that he doesn't even need himself.

Anyway, my point is the first adventure for all these Links seems to be saving their OWN world, helping others but also helping themselves, and the SECOND adventure is one to selflessly help another world, or another being, even though they personally could have easily just lived in peace.

OB1
Umm... no, I thought you were! :rolleyes:

Then why did you act as if I were disagreeing with you, you weirdo?

A Black Falcon
I wasn't... it's called "reinforcing ones (previous) statements"...

OB1
:rolleyes:

A Black Falcon
As in using your quote to back up my previous post rebutting Lazy. Seems pretty simple to me.

OB1
You don't know how to write.

lazyfatbum
...He's 16 in OoT? So he's 9 as a kid? a 9 year old!? weird...

DJ, the reason I have the theory of Link and Zelda meeting at the time of destiny before puberty is because in almost every Zelda game you're trying to protect a blood line, if Zelda or Link is actually destroyed the blood line stops but you also have to save anyone related to you or Zelda. In LttP Link has an Uncle and you only get an Uncle because you have a brother or sister. The uncle in LttP was a soldier and this guided me to the theory that Link and Zelda are brother and sister either blood related or by a different mother (The father being the King of Hyrule). But I dont think this is the case anymore. It made sense in LttP but not in other games.

My theories are full of holes and so is everyone elses, it's just the nature of the thing since we're trying to piece everything together.

So here we go (I'll only mention the important ones to the story):

The Legend of Zelda - (Designated as the last official story) I dunno his age here, but there are no towns, the people live in caves, and monsters control the world. In order to fight Ganon, Link must find all 8 pieces of the Triforce of Courage. I think we can assume he's the 9 year old here. He saves Zelda and the people come out of hiding.

Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link - An actual sequel. A side story but with an important plot to the overall Legend of Princess Zelda. Though he saved Princess Zelda as a child, almost a decade later the Princess is put under a spell and Link goes on a journey to save her. This is the first game where we learn about the sages and their temples. Link is 16 here.

The Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past - Now thousands of years in the past (maybe more, see plot outline of WW) we learn of the now ancient story of the sages closing the gate to the Sacred Realm to keep people from going after the golden power (Triforce) and locking Ganondorf inside. Ganon uses the Sacred Realm to create the Dark World and needs the blood line of Zelda to bring his powers in to the real world. Link is guided by Sahasrala (Rauru). Link is 16 here.

The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening - (Side Stroy) Crazy stuff. Link has this adventure in his mind, an adventure given to him from a being called the Windfish (the only real thing other than Link in the entire adventure). The Windfish needs Link in order to free him. Now that he's free and without nightmares there's no telling what will happen My theory is that the Windfish is Link's hope clouded by nightmares of Ganondorf and his evil, awakening the Windfish gives Link new hope for the future. Another theory suggests that the Windfish is Rauru (and Sahasrala, who was killed in LttP) The Sage of Light. This is a direct sequel, which means it happens right after the events of LttP. So Link is 16 here too. I mention this story because I think the Windfish (or what the windfish represents) is extremely important to the Legend of Zelda.

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time (designated the oldest Zelda story) - Now we go back thousands of years again. This is the ancient story in LttP of the sages closing the gate to the Sacred Realm. But Link needs to awaken the sages first. The sages awakened, they send Ganondorf in to the Sacred Realm unknowingly causing the events that will lead to LttP. Link starts this adventure at the age of 9 but is forced to wait 7 years in the Sacred Realm until he's ready to fight Ganondorf. Most of the adventure is played through Link at age 16. Ganondorf's last words - "I will kill you both by destroying your blood lines and killing your decendents!"

The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker - Okay get ready for this. The world is covered in water and the only land are small islands peppered through out the world. This is Hyrule after a huge flood. In the very begining, we're treated to the plot where it says that Link saved Hyrule from the Evil Ganondorf. Many years later, Ganon attacked Hyrule but Link did not appear to save them. The people (shown begging in front of the Triforce) pray for a solution, so the God's freeze time. In Wind Waker The Deku Tree sprout is fully grown and in Hyrule Castle in the dome of frozen time the sages are displayed as Gods and a statue depicting Link as the Hero of Time stands in the middle of the castle great hall so this is after the events in OoT. The only way this story makes any sense is that its part of OoT's time line but way off in the future. The events of OoT are talked about like ancient lore, so then WW's plot takes place hundreds of thousands of years in the future after OoT but BEFORE the events of LttP. Why didn't Link appear to destroy Ganon? Because Ganon only existed in the Saced Realm at this point, he attacked from outside this deminsion, the God's fixed this by bringing Hyrule in to the Sacred Realm. People asked the God's for help, so the God's froze time indirectly by putting Hyrule in a dome of frozen time and bringing everyone in to the Sacred Realm. The people wished for a savior and begged the God's to destroy Ganon and protect them, the Triforce reflected that and created the vast ocean and hide the people in the sacred realm which is now Hyrule 2. Ganondorf exists in the sacred realm, so now Link can rise and fight him! The people are finally getting their wish. Ganondorf wants the real world but can only achieve it by destroying the blood lines of Link and Zelda. All the events that take place above the water never are writen in to the history books because it never actually existed, Link and Zelda defeat Ganondorf in the dome of frozen time, by destroying him, they unfreeze Hyrule and the flood finally dies down, Hyrule castle reamerges and time continues as normal leading to the events of LttP. So WW takes place in a deminsion outside of Hyrule's and while it was hundreds of thousands of years between OoT and LttP it was in reality the blink of an eye because Hyrule was kept frozen until the Hero would appear. It's like the Matrix if you think about it; People have no idea that they're not in the real world though they live in peace. In this story, Link is 9 years old.

Phew.

So now here comes the new Zelda... Link is 16. There's no sign of Ganondorf yet, but there are massive armies, a world of monsters. Link has his horse, so I assume it's after the events of OoT... could it be after the events of LttP? ...could it be the story that will lead to the final step in the Legend? The very first Zelda game says a huge war took place that scared the world... and everything i've seen from the new Zelda paints a picture of a huge war. I wonder...

So, I had it in reverse! Link was a kid in:

The Legend of Zelda
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask
The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker

And a young adult in:

Zelda 2: The Adventures of Link
The Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past
The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening
The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
The Legend of Zelda: The Oracle of Seasons/Ages
The Legend of Zelda: Unknown Title

Gah. Well now it makes more sense to me, but I have a headache.

A Black Falcon
Your only obvious mistake is that he's a kid, not a young adult, in Oracles. Yes, the game uses exactly the same Link sprite as LA where he's a young adult, but when you look at the intros it's very, very obvious that this Link is noticably younger than the LA one...

Oh yeah, and I don't know about your WW theory. Seems a bit out there... :)

And I'll just go on the assumption that this game's a sequel to WW until Nintendo says otherwise. I'm not sure that they were lying when they said this game was WW2...

OB1
Interesting theory, though I don't think the flood just goes away. Link and Zelda have to search for a new Hyrule at the end of WW, which is most likely the Hyrule we see in all of the 2D games.

A Black Falcon
But then how do you explain why the landmarks in Hyrule stay the same, and similar proportional distances apart, in all the games?

OB1
That's more of a design thing than a story thing, really. I doubt the developers really cared that much about the Hyrules looking the same or not. Hyrule in WW isn't identical to Hyrule in OoT even though they're supposed to be the same Hyrule.

A Black Falcon
Not identical? Okay, but they have enough similarities that it doesn't take too much stretching to say that they're the same... remember all that analysis of maps we did some time ago? :)

Dark Jaguar
I KNEW IT! I KNEW that my post wasn't saved when TC crashed! Dangit, okay I'll type it ALL up again, but it BETTER not crash AGAIN when I post it!

lazy, first I'd like to make a point about Zelda 2. There's one other thing you should be aware of. It's CLEARLY stated in the story that the Zelda you see sleeping in Zelda 2 is NOT the same Zelda Link saved in Zelda 1. In fact, allow me to go into that story. Long LONG ago, an old king decided the triforce of courage, more than the other two pieces, could lead to horrible disaster if evil got ahold of it. He decided to lock it up inside the Great Palace in the Valley of Death and set up many other palaces as locks to the Great Palace's gate. This was intended to test the character of any who would seek the 3rd piece of the triforce. Anyway, he cast a spell on all of Hyrule so that the crest of the kingdom would appear on the hand of the one who had these characteristics, but only after they had gone though much experience and reached a certain age. The Link who defeated Ganon in Zelda 1 clearly met these qualifications a few years later. Anyway, he put a scroll with all this information on it in a box along with 6 crystals, which were the keys to the 6 palaces. He left this box in the care of the line of nursemaids as they were the tale keepers and such. Years later, a prince and princess, that princess named Zelda, were in a dispute. You see, that king had died ealier, and the prince had become upset because he knew what that king knew, the location of the legendary triforce of courage (at this point, the fact that it was hidden was a legend), but apparently he had only told Zelda because he knew of the greedy ambitions of the prince. The prince outraged at this hired a wizard and threatened Zelda with eternal slumber if she didn't talk. She refused, so the wizard started casting the spell. The prince immediatly came to his senses and attacked the wizard, killing him, but by then it was too late and the spell was cast. The prince, in grief over what his own actions caused, put the princess in a palace in a small inlet of a lake and declaired that from that day forward, all women born into the royal family would bear the name Zelda (now THAT'S a way to teach a history lesson). Anyway, she had slept for hundreds of years before Link finally had this seal appear on his hand. The Zelda he rescued, while related to the royal family, was not a direct decendent of that Zelda for obvious reasons. Anyway, as Impa told Link of the more recent but still old legend, she then handed him the box from the older legend. The scroll was written in an ancient language Link never saw before, but the spell allowed him to read it (I'm not inferring any of this, including how old these legends are, the story specifically states it all in no uncertain terms). Anyway, Link decided to go forth to save this princess from long ago as well as restore the kingdom. You see, while the kingdom was rebuilding, there was a lot of disharmony. Monsters were also starting to appear in record numbers as though something was attempting to return. The people out of fear became very rebellious, and as a result the nation itself was divided into north and south. The Zelda from Zelda 1, no where to be found in Zelda 2, well, I assume she's trying to restore the nation into a whole like some sort of fantasy Abraham Lincoln.

Regarding Majora's Mask, something tells me that will end up more important to the main story than we all think. I think they're up to something with that... I'll just keep my eyes open there...

Okay, on to Wind Waker. Your theory is interesting, but there are a couple holes you must address. I'll also tell you why I personally hold a different view. First off, I hardly think Hyrule was restored after the game. In fact, the ending makes it very clear it shouldn't be restored. You see, at the end, Ganon tried to restore the land too. He failed in his wish, and the king decided to wish for hope for the future instead. Link and Zelda together defeated Ganon, but instead of dying, he turned to stone for some strange reason, and laughed at a sword in the brain. I'll get to my theory on THAT in a minute. Anyway, Link and Zelda stood before the king while the waters began to flood even the small part of Hyrule that was frozen in time. It would seem that even this small realm saved from that flood would not be spared, as though it ALL had to go. The King made it clear that he had no intentions of fighting this, because he realized something. He realized that desperatly clinging to the past made him like Ganon in some ways. He decided to live for the future, and told the kids to live for the future too. Link and Zelda decide to find a new Hyrule to call home, and the King is happy to hear this, as opposed to them deciding to revive the old Hyrule. However, he makes it clear that whatever new land they find will not be Hyrule, it will be their OWN new land. He then consigns himself to the past, allowing himself to drown in this flood, while Zelda and Link are saved in air bubbles and rise to the surface. They do set sail for a new land, but the old Hyrule isn't it. The old Hyrule is lost forever under the waves, flooding even the previously spared part. I don't think it's in the golden realm because that realm is the dark world now, and it's under the complete control of Ganon. I think it's actually physically under the waves, though frozen in time, due to all the stuff you actually find underwater. The events under the waves apparently happened exactly 100 years after OOT according to Miyamoto (I assume that century difference refers to the first return of Ganon rather than the present era of Wind Waker because with all that history, the present era couldn't possibly be just 100 years later, but the past era with the king COULD be). Anyway, it just seems a better story to be told to live for the future and not cling to the past. Now comes as to why in LTTP no one knew of this. The easy way out is the game wasn't made yet :D, but I'll take the hard and convoluted way out thank you. Consider that just finding out about the imprisoning war required getting the hidden knowledge from the many decendants of the 7 sages. Link didn't really know much of any of the legend before that. They also only told him bits and pieces, as much as they thought he needed to know. Since WW's plot simply didn't effect LTTP's plot, then while they likely knew of that legend, they didn't feel it was worth bothering that Link about. Oh yes, about why all those decendants are human (except Zelda the hylian of course). I think WW explains that rather well. It would seem that the races seem to change over time, changed by their patron diety. The ruto were turned into the rito at a certain point, as the kokiri were turned into the koroks. Likely over time, they became just plain humans, all of them. Regarding those gods, I believe they are lesser gods, created by the main trinity. After all, the goddess of wisdom created wind, air, and the laws that govern it. So, likely all these lesser gods, and the fairies, were created by the trinity to help serve the world and help it form. Regarding the sword, it's clear it was legendary even before OOT. Thus, I think it was actually made either by the goddesses themselves, or by an ancient culture using the triforce which has long been forgotten. Remember, by the time of OOT, the location of the triforce is completely unknown, and has to be accorind to LTTP. All that's known, even by the royalty, is that the temple of time is the gateway to the world where it is kept. Anyway, I say the sword was made by something that powerful because it has to be to be able to actually resist the triforce. One other note. You should know that the gods didn't really spare old hyrule during the flood. They froze some of it in time, but most everyone either drowned or escaped to the new islands. This is why the knowledge of the old kingdom was lost. When you destroy a civilization, the tech tree must be rebuilt, so for a time writing was lost because paper was lost. The people prayed for an answer, and the gods finally gave it in the form of a flood to wash away evil. Sadly, this also destroyed the old kingdom. The king held onto the frozen time bubble, because like that part of hyrule, he too was frozen in time. Eventually though, he let it go and all of hyrule finally faced their fate. The only survivors have their decendants above on the islands.

There are holes created by this, as there were with OOT. What of those portals in LTTP? How were they created? Indeed, legend says the portal Ganon found to the Triforce was on Death mountain. Now, it's clear from both OOT and WW that this is completely impossible. Thus, it's up to us to fix Nintendo's plot holes. I believe that this, as well as the legend in LTTP that the master sword was forged DURING the imprisoning war, is a result of legends becoming twisted and lost over time. Those portals probably came about due to Ganon's attempts to break free, eventually creating an alter-ego named Agahnim, which was actually Ganon's light world avatar. On that note, I do believe that when Ganon broke free in WW and again before that in WW's history, he was using avatars. The first time, it was a super powerful form just to get revenge, but that didn't work. That form was destroyed in the flood. Later, emerging again, he created ANOTHER avatar, this time though he acted more secretly, more carefully, and above all much more QUICKLY, so as to stifle any chance of someone emerging to stop him. This explains why he only turned to stone rather than dust when you defeat him. I believe the avatar was detroyed and his spirit went rushing back to the dark world, thus he actually lived. Anyway, there is the issue of the triforce, and how Ganon got the entirety of it before LTTP. Well, I think WW kinda explains it. Ganon was defeated and the children after a small talk were quickly sent away as time was short before that place was flooded. King Hyrule allowed himself to be taken by the flood. However, what of the triforce? It sat there, forgotten. I do believe that with no owner or housing to hold it in place, it reverted back to it's default location in the sacred realm, where Ganon immediatly was able to claim the whole thing. However, after his defeat, the seal was stronger than ever, so he would have to wait a much longer time. This makes his last words "there is no hope for you" all the more prophetic.

A note about Ganon in OOT. He didn't swear he would break free by ending their blood lines. He swore that one day he would break free and THEN get his revenge. He had to get out FIRST though, and to do that, he snuck out. You're right, in order to break the seal to allow himself to escape, he had to kill off their decendants. Not really needing to end the blood line, but killing the last who have that POWER, before it's passed on. Wind Waker revealed this. The decendants that were still ruto and kokiri died allowing him to escape because the power to send him back hadn't been awakeneed in their decendents yet. They existed, but hadn't awakened. Indeed, I believe that this power to seal can be given to any who are able to recieve it and likely they don't even need to be a direct blood line decendant, and rather become a decendant by the magic-line instead of by blood. I think that's possible anyway, though I go with blood line for WW. Ganon however, after breaking out in WW didn't really care for killing off Zelda and Link so much as claiming the entire triforce, which he seemed to have done. Anyway, the seal is finally completely broken by the time of Zelda 1 and his actual real body is free. This is likely due to that horrible war where he was able to finally kill off most of the decendants.

Eh, anyway I think I covered everything I did last time.

A Black Falcon
I'll just say that just because Hyrule is still flooded at the end of WW doesn't mean that they permanantly move to a new Hyrule. As I said, there are just so many problems with that... locations, primarially. If it's a totally different Hyrule, why are so many places named the same things? Why are locations so similar? It just wouldn't make sense that two totally different places would be so amazingly similar physically... sorry, but I just don't agree with that.

Now, it's obvious that at the end of WW Hyrule is flooded with no promise of change, but that doesn't mean that they won't explain it in future games...

Oh, and as for issues with later games, 'WW didn't exist yet' is a good reason. :) Though, that reason also says that the games put in between other titles have a burden on them to explain any changes they make to the series in a way that the other games still make sense. WW did NOT do that. I think that saying 'They founded a new Hyrule' just doesn't make enough sense to say that that's what they did... instead, I can just say that it's left unclear at the end of WW and hopefully this game will help in that respect.

Oh, but I really like the idea that they were avatars of Ganons. It'd make sense, a powerful being like him would likely be able to do such a thing... and it's a MUCH better explanation than trying to explain how he escaped from a realm that according to OoT he could never escape from from the inside.

Though, maybe for the 'hundred years after OoT' they could come up with some more detailed story that says how Ganon could escape... like, someone getting through to him from Hyrule or something, I don't know... but that brings up a question. Did Ganon get out 100 years after OoT, do things, go away, and then return in the WW era or was he out the whole time? I forget...

The main problem for all of this is that Nintendo just doesn't seem to care about the story in this kind of detail, so they make these games with so many plot holes and unexplained events that we're left guessing probably more than we actually know...

lazyfatbum
I would say they're nearly identicle. If you use my theory, it makes sense because Hyrule 2 is a reflection of the real Hyrule. I also think Hyrule 2 is what will eventually become the Golden Land.

This also works on a metaphorical scale with the new creatures.

In the story, there are two special people that must find their counterpart and 'activate' the link between them. For the Kokiri tree people you see a young boy who plays fiddle and looks almost like Link. For the bird people, you see a young female Zora that plays harp (Sheik's instrument)

Kokiri: The Kokiri are actual tree-people in WW. No longer the little children we saw. This could be because the Kokiri aren't children, they're forest elves that dont change appearance with age. Without the Deku tree, the elves will die. So they're basically a part of the Deku tree. One of them, the one that gets in the most trouble and plays a fiddle, is related to a Kokiri boy. This Kokiri boy is his 'real life' counter part, still frozen in time under the waves.

The bird people: A side from looking a little bit like the Zoras, they're completely different. But they're a proud people who are extremely important in Hyrule 2 as they are the ones who deliver mail. In OoT, if you talk to the Gossip stones, you learn that the Zoras were once Hyrule's royal messengers during a war and that's why they have a good relationship now with good trade. At the top of the mountain they live on (which is a volcano) a dragon rests. This Dragon is called Volvagia (the Fire Temple boss from OoT) but this dragon now protects the bird people. You learn later that the mountain the bird people live on is actually Death Mountain, more on them later.

Gorons: You only meet them if you do the item trade mini-quest. They're in hiding and you can only tell that they're gorons if you get the camera just right. In the game, they never mention that they're Gorons, but they do say this: "I dont know how I got here... and i dont know how to get home." In OoT, the Goron's were so proud that they didn't want any help from anyone, and slowly their culture was being destroyed - They were losing their grasp on tradition which angered Darunia.

In Goron lore, the Fire Dragon Volvagia was once a protector of Death Mountain's Temple that one day turned evil and killed Gorons, this is why the Mountain was named Death Mountain. The Goron people called on a hero and this hero (A Goron) would carry the legendary Hammer to kill the Dragon, but a Goron hero did not appear. "This is a Goron problem!". Link is the one who carried the Hammer and destroyed the Dragon. Darunia accepted this and though the Goron's have officially lost their since of tradition (an outsider had to help them) they were comfortable in that idea, since they will now live on in peace. The Dragon (a spirit that was made real by Ganon) was laid to rest to return as the spiritual protector of the Fire Temple. Once its body was killed, Death Mountain returned to peace.

Ganon's evil power turned Volvagia in to a monster that killed Darunia (Making him the Sage of Fire). A part of the Prophecy that made the plot in OoT (It would seem that A.) You have to have the Sage blood in your viens and B.) You have to be killed by the Temple's spirit in order to become the sage). Now in WW, Volvagia is a protector once again and this time is being annoyed by a monster - In Wind Waker, the idea is to save the dragon on top of Death Mountain that is being tortured by a monster so it can protect its people. Essentially the same thing you did in OoT; Destroyed the evil essense of the Fire Temple spirit that is now a monster to bring peace back to Death Mountain.

On Dragon Roost island there is a young girl, she loves to play harp and dreams of greater things, a much bigger life somewhere off this island. She gets her wish, and she must contact her real life counterpart, a Zora girl who plays harp.

During this time, you have the Master Sword. But it has no power. By contacting these real world counterparts with their mirror images, you activate the sword. The sword has power in the real world, but in the Sacred Realm it has to find a path in to the real world in order to have it's power to banish evil.

Finally, behind your home island is a cave that is blocked by a stone wall. You destroy it and inside is a whale. It's Lord Jabu Jabu, he talks to you and tells you that he is in hiding and he wants to be left alone. The King (the boat) asks him for the Pearl (the other two you recieved after finishing dungeons) he coughs it up and you leave Jabu Jabu in peace.

In the real world of Hyrule, Lord Jabu Jabu was killed by Ganon. His spirit stays in the Sacred Realm to rest. You had to open his 'grave' and waken him from his resting place.

Examples like these make me believe that WW is a reflection of the real world within the Sacred Realm. And having this world with the same geographics of the real world makes sense.

When you kill Ganondorf, the dome covering Hyrule breaks open, and the water floods in. This is a representation of the real world; You have unfrozen time in the real Hyrule and life can continue as normal for them. But in the Sacred Realm, life continues - These people in WW will never leave the Sacred Realm because they're mirror images, not the real thing.

That's why I said it was really the blink of an eye. Ganon attacks Hyrule from the sacred realm, the God's freeze Hyrule in time, and brings all the spirits of Hyrule in to the Sacred Realm, including Link to defeat Ganondorf. Ganondorf's spirit is defeated and the sacred realm is cleansed which means Hyrule and the Sacred Realm are no longer in danger. They unfreeze time in the real world and the people are saved. There are two worlds now, Hyrule and the Golden Land (Hyrule 2) where the Triforce exists.

In WW's story they said that the hero didn't appear. That Link didn't come to save the day from Ganondorf. But he did in the Sacred Realm. Link did come to save the day and destroy Ganondorf but it was outside the realm of Hyrule.

Now in LttP, they say the Golden Land will become a horrible place because everyone wants the Triforce and a war breaks out. During that war, Ganondorf gains the Triforce and wishes for control of the world, the Triforce then makes the Golden Land in to the Dark World. So the world in WW, is the first steps of the Golden Land.

In LttP, Ganondorf is stuck in the Dark World and we never see him in LttP, so he creates Ganon, an image of his inner self and Aghinem a medium he uses to visit Hyrule and persuade the King.

Damn... my brain is starting to hurt.

lazyfatbum
DJ/ Every Zelda is a different Zelda, every Link is a different Link (except for the direct sequels) but Ganon is always the same. Gerudo give birth to a man every 100 years the rest are women. When they brought Ganondorf in to the world (this is from a gossip stone) he casted a spell on the Gerudo so that they would never give birth to another man. Ganondorf cheated death with magic and has existed since his birth for thousands of years because of Koume and Kotake, his mother. An evil Gerudo woman who also uses magic to cheat death (we see her as two people but she is one person split in to two which is why they always fight).

Remember that it's not the actual people that matter, it's the blood lines that really matter. Especially Zelda's. Link's matter somewhat, but he is afterall a creation of the Gods. Link can't exist if there's no evil in the world. Only when Ganon rises to power can Link exist.

Great theories though and thanks for explaining the Zelda 2 story. What do you think of WW's world being IN the Sacred Realm and being the first steps towards the Golden Land?

Using my theory, the King didn't die in the flood. He wanted to be in the flood because doing so, he would return to the real world. The boat himself was an avatar for the real king afterall.

And as for the Triforce (which activated the gate in to the real world) I think the King took it back to the real world along with the frozen spirit of Ganon who created Aghinem to steal it.

We're such nerds. :D

Dark Jaguar
Yes we are, but still the thing is, that's much more complicated than it needs to be, and it sorta ignores what Wind Waker seems to ACTUALLY be telling me.

lazy, Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 use the same Link, as does MM and OOT. LTTP and LA are somewhat uncertain, but I'm pretty much convinced that LA and LTTP use the same Link as well.

ABF, regarding LTTP. It has many of the same features, but they are only somewhat similar. The forest is in the northwest for instance, and lake hylia is far different. Death Mountain is a completely different looking place. As to why they have the same names, I believe that's the same reason it's called Hyrule. They kept the memory of the old places. Keep in mind they went in search of a new Hyrule, in that search they were likely trying to find a place with all those terrain features of the old Hyrule of legends. Problem solved if you look at it from that way.

lazy, about Ganon in LTTP. I do believe you DO see him. He IS trapped in the Dark World, and you actually go there yourself to fight and actually KILL him that time, which is how you manage to take the triforce back. The triforce itself states that Ganon is dead. How he came back to life is likely due to someone using the blood ritual to bring Ganon back later on for Zelda 1. Anyway, my point is that the Ganon you face in the pyramid of power is most likely the real thing. His form was permanently twisted into that evil pig demon, resembling the form he took at the end of OOT. That too was his actual body, but it wasn't killed then, just banished. I think only Agahnim was the shadow body, Ganon being the real thing.

About your thoughts on Zelda and Link being related, kinda odd. I mean, having an uncle only means one of your PARENTS has a brother, not you. Link could have been an only child, and it would seem he was.

Going back to wind waker, I suppose your interpretation could in fact work, but it's all a bit much and taking a lot of stuff in a much too indirect way for my tastes. I like things to be much more obvious and direct in the explanations if at all possible.

The game itself never actually hints or tries to tell me that the above world is an illusion or is anything but the reality. The people don't know the truth of their past, but it's not needed for them to continue leaving. If anything, the old or real hyrule is intended to be the fantasy. The rito connection to the zora, if you ask me, was made clear by that ghost. I say ghost because WW states that these aren't images from the "real world", but are ghosts of two decendants that Ganon killed himself. That's what they say too. Why are they the same? I think simply put that valoo is the one who changed them. Valoo is considered a diety, and valoo is the one who gives all of them their wings. When the world flooded, valoo likely decided that the zora could no longer live as they had for some reason, maybe because, as the game states, the waters have no fish, and likely fish can't live there (the man-fish contradict that though, but honestly WW actually says a few times that the waters have no fish so I suppose the man-fish are some magical exception to this rule, breathing air and whatnot).

Now, anyway, your theory is intriguing, but honestly it's far too complicated and from my personal interpretation ignores a lot of what Wind Waker actually says. As for lord Jabu Jabu being Jabun, well the name similarity is there :D. Honestly, in OOT I was under the impression that Jabu Jabu simply left of his own accord after the whole incident. Ganon killing him off may have happened, I'm not sure. Perhaps, as a diety itself, it did leave to parts unknown. It's likely that Jabu Jabu later had a decendant named Jabun. Jabun, even considering the art style, does look a lot different and is in fact a large angler fish at that point. I suspect it is a decendant.

On to volvagia. In OOT, volvagia was never good, always evil. I don't think valoo is volvagia at all.

The koroks and kokiri, well the game itself also makes it clear that the koroks WERE originally the kokiri and the Deku Tree changed them to make them fit for that new world. All signs point not to them being a mirror of hyrule, but to the flood actually being exactly what the game presents it to be.

One last thing, as I said above, the golden land is no more by the time of Wind Waker. It's already completely under Ganon's control, so there isn't really a way to hide a kingdom in there. It's just a bit too much. Perhaps it could work, but the simpler explanation that everything is exactly as the game states it to be works too. I go with that. The LTTP hyrule being very similar in the same types of places is something, but consider what makes them different, and there is a LOT that makes them different. In fact, after beating OOT and coming up with my first idea on the story, I ended up having to think up reasons why LTTP world and OOT world looked so different from each other. I "knew" they were the same, but why were all these places in different parts of the land and further more, completely different sizes and mapped out differently? I just consigned it to the changes of time, meaning that OOT and LTTP were MUCH further apart in my mind at the time, talking millions of years here. However, WW actually solved the problem for me. They had to find a new land, but named many of the features after the old land. That explained all the differences to me. Now then, why is the Hyrule in Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 so different? Indeed, they are much different compaired to EACH OTHER. Even MORE different than OOT and LTTP compaired in fact, with death mountain actually being in the SOUTH in Zelda 2 and the NORTH in Zelda 1 (not to mention being mapped so differently that the game itself makes a small note of it). I also go with the triforce reverting back to the dark world after the flood incident. I don't think the king ever went back to the real world or anything like that. Every single word he says at the end completely contradicts that to me... He seems to be saying "I will forget my old kingdom and look to the future". I almost expected him to throw away his crown as some sort of token for this, but I guess Miyamoto didn't think of that himself. Indeed, if he was actually attempting to return to his kingdom, then they did a heck of a job hiding that fact, with him telling them to find a new land, forget the old land, that old hyrule is lost forever, and finishing it all off with a flood to wash it all away.

lazyfatbum
Let the discussion begin!

*turns on winamp*

A'ight, fool. Lemme lay it down, yo.... here it is. Can you dig? I know that you can wonder bread.... the soul is in my USB keyboard especially in the punctuation and the letters A thru Zippity..... and it's all pissed off; Approaching Level Mackin, as in, Mack smackin yo rackety crackety be-HIND, fool. Are you ready? Yeah... If I was a Crayola i'd be the color of retro, if I owned a train station, it would be the Funk-bunk-bo-diggity Express to Zelda Theory Land, I KNOW YOU DIG! Check it: My blackness, awwwww hell! So black.... so right, I'm gonna whip you up a batch of Grandma's special soup, make your magic meter glow like a mother fuck, that right nigga, oooooo snap its gonna hurt yo ass when i'm done dont you doubt it wonder bread, bam! It's like this -

I take it one at a time.

LttP Link, he be sayin shit like "Word, I be trippin from all this Dark Land BOWL shit, nigga. Time for to relax on a raft ride and find me some PT, hell. I'm done with my adventure in Hyrule, now I be finding me some island pussy fo reel."

I might be paraphrasing... But that's how it is.

Now my young friend of questionable gender I ask you up front - point blank wonder bread; Who or should I say WHAT did you fight in Link to the Past in the Sacred Realm? Nigga you best not be sayin no Ganondorf cuz you know you wrong as a mother fuck. That's right, you fightin GANON nigga! All 8000 pounds of his green ass! Check out that staff and that piggly wiggly face that aint no Gerudo mothafucka that be one pissed off dude that shoot bats at yo head. Ganondorf, you see, check this, he be trippin! He cant be existing in no place outside the Dark World or even IN the damn Dark World cuz his green ass be stuck in limbo, word. Which, you see, it works with my theory, it aint no trigonomitry lemme say it in high fidelity: Ganon's spirit all trapped in limbo because dat Link... mmm, and that fine Zelda.... YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DID!?!? ...damn, they done shot Ganondorf in to the Sacred Realm! They killed his body, but not his spirit.... cuz his spirit cant be killed. And in Wind Waker, you fightin his spirit dawg!. My theory is like.... it's like Jesus with a gun. I said it.

NEXT

Awww shiznet you sayin some weird Dark Jaguar language now, certifiably fucked in the head. You said, now I know you didn't say this, oooooo you did! a'ight... "having an uncle only means one of your PARENTS has a brother, not you."

I was like: SAY WHAT! and then Minka walked in and she was all "YO FO REEL!?!?" and I said it that damn DJ bein all crazy! Cuz you know if you have a brotha, or a sista, then one of them havin some babies?? Dat makes you da UNCLE, shiiit dawg i be explaining some stupefying kindergarden stuff yo! My sister have a baby and that makes me the uncle to that baby, I know you know this, so I go on to the next thang word? WORD!

Valoo is a living God. Just like the monsters who guard the temples in OoT. And Valoo be all red and shit, he speak Hylian, he gots his butt on top of Death Mountain! The Goron's themselves explained in OoT that Volvagia was once good protectin the mountain and shit but then flipped and went all Nuckin Futs! Plus Valoo spoke Hylian to you... like he remembered you! If he aint Volvagia then i'm Martha Stewart, somebody bake me a 3 layer cake with a file inside and maybe some Off Skintastic Lesbian Repelent, yunnowutimsayin.

The Man-Fish can talk, write, read and have a social structure. When's the last time you ate something that could read?! D-AAAMN! You trippin.

How can Juban be a descendent of Jabu Jabu when jabu jabu died and the OoT world is frozen beneath the waves? Time is stopped nigga, Jabu jabu cant be goin around all dead in frozen time getting aquatic pussy! He's a fish stick in the freezer, It aint goin on, no way no how, that aint no horse of a different color DOYUNNOWUTIMSAYIN!?

word... many words. Plural, bitch. Wordsssss... like melted poetry in a microwave, warm and rubbery. You cant brown in a microwave, but you can boil water. give that some thought. White pig make me sick.

Koroks.... yeah. See they all different now with all their leafy shit and built in helicopter blades of grassssss.... Blades of grass, they changed so they can fly, blades of grass, go plant seeds of new deku trees on different island so they can spread the word and make the world a better place because without the Deku Tree, all hell breaks loose. But shit not only did the Deku Tree say you look familiar but so did the Koroks! *LIKE THEY'RE THE SAME PEOPLE YOU KNEW IN OCARINA OF TIME* AWWWWWWWWWWWW SHNIZIT!

The Golden Land has plenty of room, cuz you in it! Before that it was just light and space, no land to speak of, no homes, no gardens, no shops or mini games, just smokey whiteness. Now it's got a whole world and an eco system with taxes and strip malls, perfect for becoming the Golden Land. And that King? wonderbread that King told Link and Zelda in Wind Waker to find a new land for themselves because the King was going back to his! And that particular Link and Zelda cant go back to Hyrule, they have to stay there because they be the spirits of Link and Zelda! And like I said, what we saw is Hyrule underwater but it wasn't water at all, it was a shield. Because what we were seein is a representation not a reality. The water was a mofo shield and Link broke it and let time (water) flow in, Hyrule could exist again and the rest is history.

Whutchu think G!? Dig it! :banana:

Dark Jaguar
Well, I had a hard time translating that, but I see your point there. Also, that was frickin' hilarious!

One thing, I was saying "you" as though you were Link, not the uncle. Link himself doesn't need to have any brothers or sisters. His mother, OR father, whichever, just needs to have a brother. So, Link can easily be an only child even though he has an uncle. THIS AIN'T NO KINDERGARDEN STUFF G! Nuts, I said it, and you WANTED me to do it, and you did that specifically for the purpose of making me do it! Shut up!

Anyway, my thoughts on Jabu Jabu were more along the lines of Jabu Jabu having left, not having been killed, and had a decendant who later returned to the flooded world. Consider my viewpoint and it makes sense. That viewpoint being that the people on the islands are the decendants of everyone from old Hyrule. That comes from me thinking, as the text led me to believe, that only SOME of hyrule was stored in a time bubble, and the rest was really and truly flooded.

Anyway, it's clear you really want to go with this theory, so I won't really argue it with you. I have my ideas on what's going on, and you have yours. Just keep in mind those problems I found with it.

Also, it's funny you cranked up the music there, because I was playing some music myself but had to shut it off so I could think straight. It kept distracting me.



Here's one note, not about our conflicting interpretations of things, but a whole other kettle of man-fish (all I said was those freaky fish were certainly not what they were talking about when they said it was a fishless sea ya know). That Tower of the Gods. That thing is completely and totally cool, but it also raises some interesting questions. I mean, the thing comes out, and you see this circuitry stuff on it glowing like all the ancient structures that come out of the sea in Megaman Legends, which were in fact ancient robots filled with robots. As you go through it, you face standard wizrobes and slimes, and eventually face off against a good ol' fasioned fantasy boss monster, the giant holy robot of the gods. Now, at first I thought it was circuitry but circuits for magic, but then I accidently fell into a big pit of exposed circuits and electrocuted myself, thus pretty much proving to myself, nope, it's a giant super futuristic computer that the gods created, because, you know, they are all smart. Force field bridges and robot servants and a big ol' robot guardian complete with computery sound effects. So, where did all that tech come from? As I said above, I'm thinking the gods created it. I highly doubt that the people at any time between OOT and the tech collapse during the flood managed to get to that level. If they did, I think it would look something like this:

Setting: *located in high tech lab in city full of flying cars and floating buildings*

Hyrule Scientist: Fellow scientists, we have finally found a way to convert our entire society into pure energy!

Other scientists: Hurray!

One other scientist: Wait a moment, first I would like to show you all a new beverage I invented.

First scientist: Hmm *reads label* Wisky? Alright... *drinks*

Civilization: *explodes*

There's that idea, or there's the one where the gods created it as an automated testing grounds, which is what it is. Why make it be a large magical computer full of magical robots? Well, it looks cool.

lazyfatbum
Hehe go to Overclocked Remix and get these tunes:

Ben Cousins - Zelda: Link's Awakening - Lost Woods
Ben Cousins - Zelda: Link's Awakening - Animal Village
Scott Peebles - Zelda: Link's Awakening - Mysterious Groove

I started playing them for some zelda inspiration and it made me reach level 11 in my blackness when i'm usually hovering around 7. To give you an idea of my numbered system, Eddie Murphy has level 10 blackness, James Earl Jones has level 6. So there you are.

That tower is pretty weird now that you mention it...

It came out of the ocean... in my theory the ocean is the wall between reality and the Sacred Realm. so it could be that the tower came out of the real world. Wasn't it called the Hero's Tower? It was a tower to test Link that's for sure... and it's strange tech makes me wonder if it's simply from the future OR in a cool twist, from the distant past when technology at that level existed. Either way, it seems very out of place in a magical realm... and at the end of the tower, you fight a mechanical boss.... a boss that has been waiting for you.

It must be an ancient testing ground to find and aid the hero and is the only structure in the Zelda universe to have such technology. But if the God's built it, it wouldn't need technology... so this structure must have been built by man or is a representation of something built by man.

Can you think of anything from any Zelda game that resembles in some way to the tower dungeon?

All i can think of is the tower from Link's Awakening (where the boss is the giant bird) and the tower in LttP on Death Mountain (with the annoying catapilar boss)... dude come to think of it.... alot of the dungeons have strange technology... like warp plates, switches and conveyer belts... All the temples and dungeons are older than Hyrule itself.... woah....

There was once advanced technology in Hyrule! :question: :eek: :question:

Dark Jaguar
That's exactly what I was thinking! I mentioned it a while ago in reference to things like the Water Temple in OOT, what with those crystal switches and of course the legendary hook shot. Those teleportation tiles I still think are magical in nature, but things like the conveyer belts and such, and everything else, just reek of some ancient lost technology from an era before OOT. THAT is likely where the Master Sword was made! I still think that magic clearly exists, but it's not some sort of scientific explanation for it or anything. Anyway, yeah, the Tower of the Gods (that's what it was called, though it is a testing ground for the hero) may very well be older than OOT. It had existed for the hero of winds but likely the "lesser gods" just had no idea what was meant by that, so it sat there waiting... Maybe... Actually I'm still thinking it may have been made by the gods after OOT, that tower specifically anyway. As to why it's so technological, well consider that the planet itself is a sort of technology. It still reeks of magic, but it's also technology. It's not like technology is countrary to gods or anything, they may have inspired a lot of it. As to the ancient ruins from before even OOT that are filled with their own technology, likely there truly was an era long lost.

BUT THERE IS MORE! The fantasy world of Zelda in OOT seems to be just on the verge of something like our industrial revolution. There are plenty of buildings using electricity. There are neon lights AND juke boxes even! It's likely that electricity is only understood enough to create some very simple stuff for entertainment purposes only. In LA, there is even a simple telephone system. Now, that was a dream world yes, and that could have been a gag, OR it could be memories of that Link and his kingdom he sailed from having just invented that before he set sail. Indeed, Zelda is the only fantasy world that while staying fantasy, actually seems to be TRYING to advance their technology. They even have created explanations for why it would be around the same level in each game, TOTAL CIVILIZATIONAL COLLAPSE.

Something to think about, just remember it doesn't really ruin it because, well, a bow is high technology too.

Also, there's that compass that can detect chests.

One note. As a kid, playing Zelda 1, I always thought the "magical boomerang", the blue one, was actually some super high tech device due to the little part of it that looked like a small computer chip.

lazyfatbum
Haha the compass does raise some issues with the technological state of Hyrule.

I'll bet you we're on to something. Technology in nature as to how the world works and keeps on functioning is one thing, but comparing that to electricty being used to power monolithic robots or sustain a building? Somethings wrong! something's bad wrong! ...it's badong!

lazyfatbum
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qw2n-smz/zelda/item/magicboo.gif

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~qw2n-smz/zelda/item/boomeran.gif

You mean the little discolored part? That's just a design:

http://www.melorasworld.com/zelda/gallery/1item_boomerang.jpg

http://www.melorasworld.com/zelda/gallery/1item_boomerangm.jpg

http://www.armchairempire.com/images/Reviews/gameboy-advance-gba/legend-zelda-link-past/legend-zelda-link-past-3.jpg

But yeah, I thought the same thing too :D Not a chip, but a button you press before throwing it so it would go all the way to the other side of the sreen before coming back. None of the new Zelda's have the magical boomerang. Though WW's boomerang is awesome.

alien space marine
Link tossing Toilet seats!

LOL!

Dark Jaguar
Not really, so long as it's not the average level around the kingdom.

Ya know, I wouldn't mind a Zelda taking place in some technological era once. I mean, not as the standard, but just a small change of pace for one game.

Oh and, yeah I know it's part of the design, but it's easy to see it looking like a device when it's all blue like that :D.

The WW boomerang is pretty nice. I will say the hookshot is flawed in that it makes things too easy. I like to have to figure out what the hookshot will stick in or not on my own, not have the thing suddenly light up when I happen to point at the right answer. The OOT hookshot was perfect. The only light it had was an indicator of if the hookshot could reach that far, but not if it would actually work.

Speaking of, while I managed to find a way for LTTP to work in another land (which I still totally believe is the case after WW), I forgot one thing, the dark world. Well, maybe it's not a MAJOR thing, but it's rather odd that the place where Ganon would set up his domain would be RIGHT where the NEW kingdom is rather than where the old one was... I mean, I could just take it that Ganon moved his evil army to the location to make it easier to cross into new Hyrule when the time came, but still... Eh, anyway, the portals around there linking that particular region are interesting...

Oh! What if the new Zelda, which MAY have an adult hero of Winds as the main character, when they find that land that is perfect for the new country, they find some strange link to an odd world, and find that Ganon found this exact place himself and is trying to invade using the strange portals? They might end up having to go on a quest to seal up the 8 portals to keep Ganon in, and it's all like, the 8 portals need to be sealed by like, going into dungeons and finding sealing crystals! And, those crystals turn out to be the key in LTTP for him breaking out! Oh wow!

Nah, I'm full of it. Anyway, on to the mystery of the ancient technology. It's likely this ancient kingdom had learned of what the future held. They knew the future wasn't set in stone though, and thus they would set up many places using their vast technology for the heros they saw in their dreams, hoping that with the chance they provide, things could be different. You know, something like, the further one looks into the future, the hazier things get as there are far too many differnet possibilities for anything to be certain. Fate is not a single river, but rather the miriad of paths created when a hammer strikes ice (LOVE that quote, if anyone can name where I got that line, I will give them a digicookie). Eh, anyway they likely created these ancient structures not JUST in Hyrule, but also all over the land for the various heros that would need them. This imaginary ancient civilization wouldn't DIRECTLY contradict the stories, as eventually the various incarnations of Hyrule would find these dungeons, learn their traps, and decide to establish them as their own sacred places, so that Zelda 1's story of Zelda hiding the triforce shards in 8 underground places makes sense. The labyrinths being made by some advanced civilization would be cool. However, they likely didn't JUST have high techology, but also high magic, using them both as one. You know, intertwining nature and technology as we will HAVE to do on Mars one day (Mars doesn't have the ability to hold an atmosphere on it's own even if we did create a working one, we'd have to constantly keep it alive).

A Black Falcon
Those buildings in OoT with power are inexplicable in the context. They have no power generation, no power lines, no power plants... so it's got to be magic running them, not electricity. Or magic-powered electricity. :)

Oh, and as for your 'they find a new land', isn't one hint when something isn't going to work when the theories you have to use to keep it justifiable get so convoluted that it seems to be nearly impossible to actually happen?

Dark Jaguar
Yeah, that is a hint, but lazy's doing the same thing. Really though, I go with that because that seems be exactly what WW is saying. Ya got a point though.

Now, I wouldn't say that OOT's temples actually had electricity, but still they had some very advanced mechanical stuff, like the water temple seemed to have hydrolics up the wazoo. The only one I've seen that actually HAS to be using electricity is that tower of the gods. That one, I'm guessing that it's either generated by magic, like some sort of lightning crystal (as you suggest) or it's some super advanced generator we can't even fathom. Now if the gods made it, there's one reason it would be tech rather than pure magic. The same reason creatures like the humans operate purely on scientific principles, while other creatures operate on magic like the fairies. The will of the gods that there should be a balance of the universe they themselves created and magic, the energy of the gods. Something like that...

A Black Falcon
Yes, it does also apply to Lazy's theory. :)

Oh, sure, I know that the "the developers didn't care" explanation is a bad one when you want to explain things. But it really DOES seem that a lot of the aspects of this series are explained by it, unfortunately. I really wish that Nintendo had paid more attention to the story and continuity...

So I think that that was Hyrule. What the game says is what happened. And things like how Ganon got out? Unexplained (though that 'Avatar' theory is easily the best one I've seen...). I hope that the next game keeps up telling a better story, like WW, but I'd also like more attention to continuity... Zelda games have never paid a whole lot of attention to the details of it, and it shows...

A Black Falcon
http://www.cube-europe.com/news.php?nid=6547

Zelda director.

Dark Jaguar
That's interesting. Never heard of Marvelous, but I suppose it's a Japan only game.

Really, they have always tried to expand on the Zelda storyline, and stick to it with their games. However, you are right, the details, the little details, are the things they tend to ignore. Fortunatly, I have yet to see some continuity error that is such a major plot hole that a reasonable explanation can't be thought up. Castlevania actually has the same issues come to think of it...

A Black Falcon
Yeah, they make the big events pretty much line up, but the little things... not even close, as this thread proves. :)

Dark Jaguar
Well close, but certainly they stick out enough when you close in on them as to warrent needing to come up with an explanation. Per-game, the stories are all pretty much seamless, it's just the clash of those little details. The problem I see is that when they make a game, and the story, though attention is payed to making the story make sense to everything BEFORE, they never really allow for "back doors" or open parts so they can easily slide in another storyline before or after it. It's too "enclosed", so the next game has to struggle to fit.

A Black Falcon
Seamless? Like how they have electricity in the middle ages? :)

And they don't always even consider the major things -- like WW left out the part about how Ganon escaped...

Dark Jaguar
"The middle ages"? This is a complete fantasy world ya know, so they can have technology at whatever level they want. This world is NOT Earth. It's not "a mythical take on the past of our world", so they never once have to consider how that ended up in our world's present, because our world's present will never occur in that world, at any time in the future.

A Black Falcon
Even so, it's got to be magic because I don't see any kind of power generation or transmission, as I said... :)

Dark Jaguar
Well of course it's magic, and you do realize most of that thing is hidden under the waves, and this is much higher tech anyway so a generator doesn't need to be shown anyway.

Plus, it's a lot cooler if it's just powered without a large generator pumping away next to it.

A Black Falcon
Um, but if it's really THAT much higher tech, wouldn't they use it for more than just some stores? :)

Dark Jaguar
Oh, you weren't talkinga bout the tower of the gods...

Okay, that's just plain ol' technology, and very primitive by our standards, but advanced for them. As for generators, they probably have soemthing there. They don't need to show it all in those stores. I mean, you don't see generators around your house, but they are THERE. For those stores, in those cities, there is likely some small power generators for personal use, considering they aren't advanced enough to make a grid (all things considering, I can see neon lights being invented before filiment lights, and thus the idea of an electric light replacing candles wouldn't really be considered if they only had neon). They would probably just use some sort of chemical thing for the power in the back room, likely VERY inefficient whatever the source. They do know how to burn a bit more than gun powder anyway, I think... Eh, no need to go TOO far into that though. Just take it that they have some sort of really basic generator used to power very small and merely novelty type things, like neon lights and the ol' victroli. Heck, they might even be using a big sack of potatos to make the electricity, or something similar :D.

Dark Jaguar
I want to point out there are things I never have an intention of trying to explain, for example things like the bouncing mailboxes that talk to you. That's just video game fun right there, and any explanation would actually make the whole thing WORSE for being explained :D.

Just a note, the games don't tend to explain this away, whether the makers have explanations or not, but consider this. If they DID go out of their way to say stuff like "Ganon, which is but an avatar of his true form", wouldn't that cross the line from "legendary" to "assanine"? Explanations like that don't really need to be explained in-game during the story, and I think that it would in fact hurt the story to have such a thing. Indeed, Lord of the Rings did it right. Tolkein knew that explaning all the bits and pieces during the story would just make it utterly stupid sounding. So, instead save it all for the apendixes, where such things belong. Thus, I submit a master guide that's external to the games where people can read these explanations. A Perfect Work guide so to speak.

A Black Falcon
The bouncing mailboxes are magically enchanted. Either that or small critters live in them. That isn't so hard to explain. :)

I'm not sure exactly what you mean. Too much story? I don't think that that is possible. Games can't have too much story. They can have badly done story, which makes things seem worse, but if it's well done you really can't have too much... but that's the key. Having it be well done.

If they say it poorly it could indeed sound overdone, but enough games DO explain things that I wouldn't say it's impossible to do. Now, some things, like the electricity, you might be right that it would sound kind of stupid. But explaining how Ganon escaped and what he is? That'd be VERY welcome! Oh, sure, you do want to make the game so that anyone and not just a Zelda veteran can play, but you shouldn't leave such gaping plot holes out there. It wouldn't be too hard to do and would definitely help. And as I said I'm sure that if they wanted to they could find a good way to do it.

You don't need a in-depth explanation and paragraphs of text, but something would be great.

Oh, and your arguement would be a bit stronger if there WERE any kind of appendices for such things as games like this... there aren't...

Dark Jaguar
Those explanations make it WORSE than them just bouncing around for no reason at all! Don't you SEE what I'm saying here?! Can't you comprehend my MEANING behind that statement?!

The other stuff just wouldn't fit. Part of the magic is to sorta let people figure it out on their own, like we are doing now, DURING the process. That Link, hero of winds, his experience is not MEANT to include all that information. It would sorta ruin the mood! He isn't supposed to FULLY comprehend everything that's going on, just enough to know he's got to do SOMETHING.

And um, there ARE such things as what I suggest. They only exist in Japan right now of course. Xenogears has a Perfect Works guide that explains EVERYTHING about the story you could POSSIBLY want explained.

Dark Jaguar
This particular link, of which another thread appears to have been made, has my interest. http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200405/N04.0517.1915.59084.htm

Their style, which they have stated before, has always been think of the gameplay idea and work the story into it later. To be honest that's about how all the game ideas I've come up with (that lend themselves to stories) tend to go as well.

So anyway, it would seem the makers place Four Swords at the very start. Wow. Just wow, for nerds like I am. Well then, a Link that Nintendo didn't even MAKE is now the ORIGINAL Link in the storyline! Considering how fun Four Swords is, when you can drag enough people together who don't hate each other, I don't see a problem here. It would seem that Vaati was the ORIGINAL great enemy of the world in Zelda, or before Ganon at least. Anyway, this all seems before the triforce, and rightfully so if you ask me. The very first person to find the thing after all was Ganondorf according to the rest of the game's storylines. The Four Sword would be the legendary blade of evil's bane before the Master Sword was forged. The question arises, what's up with the new Four Swords Adventures taking place in LTTP's world? I'm sure the game will explain it while creating all sorts of new inconsistencies :D. Anyway, seems there's a legend long before OOT to add there. A side story that doesn't seem to affect the main story in any way, but it's part of it. So then, if this quest turns out to be in the actual Zelda universe, I suppose that means they have some idea of where they want to place the Oracle series eh? I wonder when that took place... I was thinking maybe right after Majora's Mask, that Link searching for new adventure, but the Triforce of Power is still with Ganondorf (who is now in a body horribly warped into a pig demon thing I guess), so that can't be it... Oh well, I'll just put it aside for now until there's some more information to figure it out.

It also seems that Four Swords Adventures "went wrong" according to Japan. Well, isn't that reassuring?

On a side note, I've read a lot of "the making of" interviews with someone who ISN'T a victim of bad translation that confuses the American audience, Roberta Williams, another gaming pioneer who made the whole King's Quest series (and then retired after Sierra, the company THEY MADE, took the control of game design away from them, and then died from the inside). It would seem, and from other interviews this doesn't just apply to her, that with game where there's an actual story going on, they actually end up getting attached enough to the characters that they end up coming up with everything from their weight to their favorite color. This interview suggests Miyamoto has all this sort of information in his own head that he just thought would be stupid to put in the games. I know if I spent enough time developing a character, I'd end up coming up with lots of inane and boring details at a certain point, but that's because I'm a huge nerd... Oh wait, these are video game designers...

This new guy didn't like Zelda 1?! Blasphemer! *throws holy acid in face* Oh wait, he gets it now? *wipes acid off, but face sticks to washcloth ala looney toons, then puts rag back on and returns face to owner, but upside down, gets chased through doors in a hallway by guy who is now weilding a samurai sword*

Well anyway, I love the phrase "upending the tea table" because it makes me think of that one episode of Family Guy where Stewy is disgusted at the food his mom makes him and suddenly throws it all to the floor and shouts "MAKE IT AGAIN!". It's funnier to watch that of course, in my mind.

This fellow seems to be actively trying to fix the little errrors, one game at a time, whenever it's appropriate to do so. Goody. Anyway, I shall look forward to the new GCN Zelda, not the Four Swords Adventure one mind you (thought I want that too), you know, the other one, the one that's totally awesome.

Shadow Link seems to be the "first evil" for this story. That's cool... that's cool, but I wonder if Shadow Link is created by Vaati, or is another evil that is battling with Vaati. The latter would be better I think, because Zelda hasn't really done that yet, but the first has been done a couple times. Is hypothesizing and then finding out you are right the same as revealing spoilers to others? Hmm... we'll see... Back on topic, Shadow Link is one of my favorite villians (if he's a villian here). However, OOT didn't really do him justice. He was just a miniboss in a standard dungeon. Yes, a cool miniboss, but I think he should have been in Ganon's Tower, or better yet, a hidden boss in a hidden dungeon that you find and fight just for the challenge of it. Maybe Miyamoto had originally intended that, but time grew short and they had to put that room with him somewhere, so they picked the Water Palace. Eh, he's still cool and all.

Heh, he can't even remember what unlockable secrets they put in the game! I imagine that would be the case every now and then with the hectic titles :D.

It also seems from this interview that yes, the new Zelda game will be using the same Link as Wind Waker... at least it's a VERY strong hint to that.

Anyway, it's all cool.

A Black Falcon
I'm sure the game will explain it while creating all sorts of new inconsistencies .

Of course, DJ, of course... :)

They said that the GC FS game is set right after the GBA one, right? So despite its LttP look, it's also supposedly set long before OoT...

Oh, and is this the WW Link? Like with most of this, it depends on how far you trust the translators... :) I mean, the quotes we saw that said that 'we weren't lying about this being WW2, really' also had to be translated, like the 'LttP comes after LoZ!"... ...

Dark Jaguar
Yes indeed....

Anyway, I mean that FSA seems to actually be set in the LTTP WORLD. Even if it's still long before OOT, it's in the same place from what I've heard and seen.

A Black Falcon
Yes, it's in Hyrule... :D

Dark Jaguar
The LTTP Hyrule though... Oh well, actually that's not really a big deal.

A Black Falcon
Just one more thing to mess with continuity a bit, but at this point does one more thing hurt much?

Dark Jaguar
Perhaps, but actually, this could really help explain some things... I won't go into detail until AFTER FSA proves my assumptions wrong though... :D

A Black Falcon
That probably is a good idea.