View Thread : Why I don't feel too bad about the 'abuse' of Iraqi prisoners:


Ryan
http://news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=iraq

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A video posted Tuesday on an al-Qaida-linked Web site showed the beheading an American civilian in Iraq (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Iraq%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?cs=nw&p=Iraq)) in what was said to be revenge for abuse of Iraqi prisoners.

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AP - 2 minutes ago </td></tr></tbody></table> <!-- recent_timestamp 1084307192 216 secs not stale 28800 secs --> <table width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"></td> <td width="99%"> Newsview: Iraq May Be Liability for Bush (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/export/top2/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040511/ap_on_el_pr/bush_wartime_woes&cid=694&ncid=1480)
AP - 3 minutes ago </td></tr></tbody></table> <!-- recent_timestamp 1084307143 265 secs not stale 28800 secs --> <table width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tbody><tr valign="top"><td width="1%"></td> <td width="99%"> U.S., Tribunal Disagree on Saddam Handoff (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/export/top2/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040511/ap_on_re_mi_ea/kuwait_iraq_saddam&cid=540&ncid=1480)
AP - 4 minutes ago </td></tr></tbody></table> <table width="100%" cellpadding="2" cellspacing="0" border="0"> <tbody><tr valign="top" align="center"> <td> Special Coverage (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/iraq/2/*http://news.yahoo.com/iraq) </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table> </td></tr></tbody></table>
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The video showed five men wearing headscarves and black ski masks, standing over a bound man in an orange jumpsuit similar to a prisoner's uniform. The man identified himself as Nick Berg, a U.S. civilian whose body was found Saturday near a highway overpass in Baghdad.



"My name is Nick Berg, my father's name is Michael, my mother's name is Suzanne," the man said on the video. "I have a brother and sister, David and Sarah. I live in ... Philadelphia."



After reading a statement, the men were seen pulling the man to his side and putting a large knife to his neck. A scream sounded as the men cut his head off, shouting "Allahu akbar!" "God is great!" They then held the head up to the camera.



The slaying recalled the kidnapping and videotaped beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl in 2002 in Pakistan. Four Islamic militants have been convicted of kidnapping Pearl, but seven other suspects including those who allegedly slit his throat remain at large.



The chief of Iraq's war crimes tribunal, meanwhile, said trials of Saddam Hussein (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Saddam%20Hussein%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?cs=nw&p=Saddam%20Hussein)) and others will begin next year, although U.S. officials disputed the statement.



Berg was a small-business owner from West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb, his family said Tuesday.



"For the mothers and wives of American soldiers, we tell you that we offered the U.S. administration to exchange this hostage with some of the detainees in Abu Ghraib and they refused," one of the men read from a statement.



"So we tell you that the dignity of the Muslim men and women in Abu Ghraib and others is not redeemed except by blood and souls. You will not receive anything from us but coffins after coffins ... slaughtered in this way."



The video bore the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American." It was unclear whether al-Zarqawi a lieutenant of Osama bin Laden (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Osama%20bin%20Laden%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?cs=nw&p=Osama%20bin%20Laden)) was shown in the video, or was claiming responsibility for ordering the execution.



The Web site on which the video was posted is known as a clearinghouse for al-Qaida and Islamic extremist groups' statements and tapes.



Photographs of Iraqi prisoners being humiliated have reverberated throughout the Arab world and have intensified anti-Western sentiment.



The head of the U.S.-led occupation of Iraq, L. Paul Bremer, said the soldiers accused of abuses would be brought to justice.



"I find the behavior of these American soldiers completely unacceptable and outrageous," Bremer said in an interview with Associated Press Television News. "I share the outrage of the Iraqi people and the people of the world as to what these guys did. They don't represent America, and they don't represent the face of the American military."



Seven soldiers from the 372nd Military Police Company face charges in the mistreatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison. The first one to go to trial, Spc. Jeremy C. Sivits of Hyndman, Pa., faces a court-martial in Baghdad next week.



The head of Iraq's war crimes tribunal said Tuesday the United States has pledged to hand over Saddam and dozens of other suspects from the ousted regime to Iraqi authorities by the time some sovereignty is restored June 30. U.S. officials disputed that any decisions on timing had been made.



Salem Chalabi said in Kuwait that trials would begin next year and that judges would receive "files" on the suspects at the end of this year.

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"We will put 100 people ... including Saddam Hussein, on trial," he said. The suspects, he added, "will be delivered to us by the coalition before the transfer of power."

Secretary of State Colin Powell (news (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news?p=%22Colin%20Powell%22&c=&n=20&yn=c&c=news&cs=nw) - web sites (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/DailyNews/manual/*http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?cs=nw&p=Colin%20Powell)) said he did not know anything about handing over Saddam. State Department spokesman Richard Boucher also said that as far as he knew there was no decision on when or in what time frame to hand over the ousted Iraqi leader, who has been in U.S. custody since he was captured Dec. 13.

Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali" for his use of chemical weapons against the Kurds in the 1980s, could be one of the first to stand trial, Chalabi said.

The United States estimates that Saddam's government killed at least 300,000 Iraqis. Some human rights groups say the number is closer to 1 million.

No charges have yet been filed against Saddam or other suspects from his regime, but human rights groups have said the tribunal expects to try leaders for genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Berg, 26, had been missing since April 9 the same day insurgents attacked a U.S. convoy west of the capital.

His family said they were informed Monday by the State Department that Berg was found dead in Baghdad. His mother, Suzanne, said he was in Iraq as an independent businessman to help rebuild communication antennas. He had been missing since April 9, she said.

Suzanne Berg said she was told her son's body would be transported to Kuwait and then to Dover, Del. She said the family had been trying for weeks to learn where their son was but that federal officials had not been helpful. "I basically ended up doing most of the investigating myself," she said.

The Russian Foreign Ministry, meanwhile, said one Russian energy company worker was confirmed dead and two others abducted Monday when gunmen fired on their car south of Baghdad. An Iraqi serving as a bodyguard and translator was wounded, said Yevgeny Loginov, spokesman for the Interenergoservis energy company.

Gunmen attacked a U.S.-run civilian convoy operated by workers hired by a subcontractor of Kellogg Brown & Root in the western desert about 230 miles west of Baghdad. A motorist said he saw six burned vehicles, including one Iraqi civilian car caught in the crossfire.

Halliburton Corp. spokeswoman Wendy Hall said "to our knowledge, all drivers have been accounted for." She said the workers had been hired by a subcontractor for Kellogg Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton.

April 9 also was the day that seven American contractors working for a subsidiary of Halliburton and two military men disappeared after their supply convoy was attacked on the outskirts of Baghdad. Four of the Halliburton workers and one of the military men have since been confirmed dead. Halliburton worker Thomas Hamill escaped his captors May 2 and returned home to Mississippi on Saturday. The other two Halliburton workers and the other soldier remain missing.

Two military men also vanished; one was later found dead and the other, Pfc. Keith M. Maupin of Batavia, Ohio, was taken captive and remains missing.

Anti-Western sentiment flared following the crackdown on Shiite extremists and the three-week Marine siege of Fallujah west of Baghdad. Sentiment intensified with the publication of photos showing U.S. soldiers abusing and humiliating Iraqis in Abu Ghraib.

A Black Falcon
Being as bad as bad people is not something to be proud of and is not an excuse for being bad.

alien space marine
They could be Foreign terrorist!

From what I read of the Koran now , I can truly see it is the Religion of Islam that is the cause of this wickedness.

Muhhamud had his men ambush and Killed meccan merchants , Not because they were bad because Muhhamud wanted to steal their gold and precious goods,So he had them killed.

He was a sick man , He had sex with his Sons wife and later had his son devourced her so he could marry her. Muhhamud kidnaped and forced a little 6 year old girl to marry him and he had intercourse with her even though she was a child.

A Arab Poet spoke out agiast Muhhamud and his bad acts , Muhhamud had the Poet put to death and killed all of his children before his eyes before he was eventually executed.

All this was in the Koran.

If Muhhamud was alive today he would Praise this kind of Violence , As he said there is no greater act of faith then to kill a Unbeliever.

Allah himself , Apparently the name Allah was one of 243 pagan gods the arabs worshiped before islam , Muhhamud worshiped this All'ah the pagan god and later used the same name for god when he created Islam based on the Judeo Christian faith.

Darunia
That beheading is insane; I don't care about all of that "they're only a few people, they don't represent the whole religion/nationality"...that is terrible. It reflects upon that whole region. They have no restraint; that is simple barbaric. Those people responsible for the beheading should be castrated with rusty wire cutters and gutted like fish. >B^(

Ryan
Being as bad as bad people is not something to be proud of and is not an excuse for being bad.
I agree.

But that doesn't begin to apply to this situation. We stripped and humiliated some hardcore criminals. We never once took an innocent civilian, made him cite a reading, name his family, and behead him on video.

What our people did was reprehensible, yes. But it doesn't even begin to compare to what these people did in this video. That was thousands of miles beyond reprehensible.

Yet, (and sadly, I'm not surprised at all by this), there is no outrage over this. The Arabs and Americans both get outraged by the humiliation of a handful of prisoners, but those same people are silent when the Arabs do things like this. Like, it's okay for them to do this, or something. Like what we did was worse, or something. That is so untrue. Now, of course, I expect them to be silent. Their fucked-up culture lives for this sort of thing.

Why isn't our media in an uproar? Why are we hotly demanding the heads of Rumsfeld and others but no one seems to be nearly as disgusted by this sort of inhuman butchery?

I don't think for a moment this excuses us for what those soldiers did. But, at the same time, I don't think what our soldiers did excuses them either. I swear, we are fighting this war the wrong way. Fucking political correctness and world opinion. I almost think we should go in and fucking terrorize them a bit. There is a savage part of me that would love to see them get this in return. Obviously, that's my anger speaking... but my anger is just as directed at the Americans who are not outraged over this the way they are over ourselves. The apologists, the enemy within.

A Black Falcon
That beheading is insane; I don't care about all of that "they're only a few people, they don't represent the whole religion/nationality"...that is terrible. It reflects upon that whole region. They have no restraint; that is simple barbaric. Those people responsible for the beheading should be castrated with rusty wire cutters and gutted like fish. >B^(

Interesting that Americans loosing dogs on a helpless man chained to a wall and having them attack him until he's in a pool of blood doesn't cause such a reaction...

Ryan
Interesting that Americans loosing dogs on a helpless man chained to a wall and having them attack him until he's in a pool of blood doesn't cause such a reaction...
The apologists, the enemy within.

A Black Falcon
Um, I don't know what you meant by that, but what I meant was that they are equally bad and both should be gotten rid of...

Dark Jaguar
Here's the thing, you are BOTH right.

On the one hand, Weltall makes a good point about how that does reflect on the entire nation when those people did that horrible act. This however also applies to us. Yes, it was only a few of them, and only a few of us, but it reflects on the entirety of both when those people do this.

Though I have yet to see what Weltall says, I would understand that, if true, it truly is a terrible act what they did here, and Americans really should be just as upset. Here's the thing, the average American sorta EXPECTS this from them, so it doesn't phase them as much. The average American ALSO wants America to be seen as a merciful nation that is above such acts, so when someone ruins that image, they are of course going to get up in arms over it, but when someone ENHANCES that image, like the murderers that did this, these Americans seem to get HAPPY because their view of the world has been supported.

In this case, I think you two have a lot more in common on your opinion than you realize. You both are totally disgusted by BOTH of these acts, as you should be. You see someone different interpretations, but a lot of what you think, I believe is in agreement. ABF, from my talking to him, also agrees that these acts, though done by a minority that certainly doesn't reflect the majority of the military, are STILL seen that way by those who hated us anyway, and as such is STILL a big deal.

ABF has a point that the whole dog torturing thing really was close to this, except it was done on an innocent bystander it seems. Weltall has a point that his anger, and he said he realizes this, leads reason to this. Here's the thing, you both fully acknowledge that just lashing out because you think they deserve it after what they did is not the answer, for either of these small groups. While they were criminals, they still have the rights of criminals, and that includes no excessive punishments. Further more, any actions by other people outside, even though they WERE allies, and yes that DOES infer that if the criminals were free, they would be doing similar things, are the actions of those people, and shouldn't be added to the list of crimes of those in the prison, and thus not acted upon.

Weltall, I totally agree that this whole thing does sicken me. I do have to wonder if it only was put on the news to "counter point" the other big news story, but that basically is an argument for BOTH sides isn't it? If that's the case, it makes you wonder why the other acts these people have done didn't make headline news. Those actions were horrible. The actions of our own people were also pretty bad. Was it AS bad? It's hard to say really. These people did kill someone they didn't even know in cold blood, wheras our people tortured criminals they did know, but people who were already being processed anyway and couldn't do anything else to others in their current situation. It's two questions here. Is it worse to torture and humiliate, or humiliate and kill? I can hardly answer that question in any way that doesn't make me sound like an arse, so let's just agree they were both horrible sins and weighing them is pointless, as it does sorta equate us to them. The second question is whether it's worse to kill a total stranger or torture you know is guilty of terrible things, but is currenlty already in prison. Honestly, this is a tougher morality issue. Obviously no matter the opinion one can never find the latter worse, but as to whether it's the same or not, that's another thing. To be honest, by my views, whereas God sees all sin the same, and rationalizing and "crimes of passion" are not excuses, no I can't say I see them as not being equal. I will say I understand those soldier's actions more than the actions of the people who lashed out at a stranger, that is, understand in the sense that I can sorta see what went on in their minds better, but I can't let them off for that.

Here, I think deep down, you both pretty much agree though.

A Black Falcon
ABF has a point that the whole dog torturing thing really was close to this, except it was done on an innocent bystander it seems. Weltall has a point that his anger, and he said he realizes this, leads reason to this. Here's the thing, you both fully acknowledge that just lashing out because you think they deserve it after what they did is not the answer, for either of these small groups. While they were criminals, they still have the rights of criminals, and that includes no excessive punishments. Further more, any actions by other people outside, even though they WERE allies, and yes that DOES infer that if the criminals were free, they would be doing similar things, are the actions of those people, and shouldn't be added to the list of crimes of those in the prison, and thus not acted upon.

What do you mean 'except it was done on an innocent bystander'? Okay, some of the people we have jailed in Iraq are guilty of something. But I'm sure that more are innocent, including plenty that we abused... as far as guilt goes, it isn't like these are convicted criminals (not that that would change my opinion if they were... but the fact that many are innocent makes it, in some ways, even worse...).

As in, I very highly doubt that most of those Iraqi prisoners have been through any kind of trial, much less a fair one, and been sentenced.

I agree.

But that doesn't begin to apply to this situation. We stripped and humiliated some hardcore criminals. We never once took an innocent civilian, made him cite a reading, name his family, and behead him on video.

What our people did was reprehensible, yes. But it doesn't even begin to compare to what these people did in this video. That was thousands of miles beyond reprehensible.

Yet, (and sadly, I'm not surprised at all by this), there is no outrage over this. The Arabs and Americans both get outraged by the humiliation of a handful of prisoners, but those same people are silent when the Arabs do things like this. Like, it's okay for them to do this, or something. Like what we did was worse, or something. That is so untrue. Now, of course, I expect them to be silent. Their fucked-up culture lives for this sort of thing.

Why isn't our media in an uproar? Why are we hotly demanding the heads of Rumsfeld and others but no one seems to be nearly as disgusted by this sort of inhuman butchery?

I don't think for a moment this excuses us for what those soldiers did. But, at the same time, I don't think what our soldiers did excuses them either. I swear, we are fighting this war the wrong way. Fucking political correctness and world opinion. I almost think we should go in and fucking terrorize them a bit. There is a savage part of me that would love to see them get this in return. Obviously, that's my anger speaking... but my anger is just as directed at the Americans who are not outraged over this the way they are over ourselves. The apologists, the enemy within.

As I said in my first post. We expect them to act inhumanly and to break international law because that is what they stand for and that is their expressed goal. They are terrorists trying to destroy America's power in the world and they cannot do that and follow international law. So this is a horrible thing, but not something that is uncharacteristic for terrorists like Al-Quaida.

But the US? As DJ says, we are trying to stand for the high moral ground! We are most definitely failing, but that is at least our supposed goal... and that means treating them well no matter HOW their extremists treat us back. And assuming innocence before guilt... that's a tough one these days, especially for people like you who assume all Arabs are immediately guilty...

Oh yeah, to refute some of your post. What we did wasn't as bad? As DJ says, you cannot really quantify this. But to extend that, remember: 24 people have died in our custody. And even if half of them have been shown to probably be unavoidable, that leaves some dozen others... several have definitely died as a result of what our people did to them in custody. So you have no right to say that we aren't as bad, even IF you consider torture and humiliation to be "not as bad" as humiliation and death.

As for the rest, that'd be the worst possible course we could take. The one we're taking is bad, overall, but giving in to our hatred and terrorizing them? I REALLY hope you understand how incredibly badly THAT would go. Even ignoring the crimes against humanity, it'd completely fail to get us where we want! If you think the Iraqis hate us NOW...

No, the only way to make any progress is to work at unity. Working fully with international organizations. Giving the UN as much power as it wants in Iraq and ditching the American control of the occupation. Working our hardest to increase the chances of democracy taking hold in Iraq... and trying to reduce the influence of religion in politics. But I doubt that last one -- I don't see the Iraqis as ready to follow the Turkish model, unfortunately. Democracy is good, but it seems that when people who do not understand or want democracy get it it fails... and when they do want it, it succeeds better. Iraqis have little understanding of democracy, and as such it'll take a long time to get them in shape for one... this isn't something we can do in a few months. And it's not something we can do alone. As the last year proves, us by ourselves just does not work. We need the UN to give it legitimacy that the Iraqis might pay attention to.

I really don't know what we can do to fix Iraq. It's a tough situation. We can't let the mullahs take over, obviously. But there is no credible group to provide a civilian government, and no popular demand for such a thing... the majority, if they could vote, would probably choose a religious government! That is the problem here. That is why in Pakistan the US does not protest when the "President" supresses elections -- we know that religious extremists would win, and a pro-US dictator is better than an elected anti-US parliament. Similar issue in Iraq with the Shi'ites and Sunnis...

Well, and the fact that if left to their own devices it'd almost certainly devolve into a three-way civil war between them and the Kurds. So despite the fact that they hate us we're really preventing more violence by being there than we are causing by being there, I'd say. As to how to get them not to hate us... there is no easy answer. It's a mix of making moves to try to go towards Palestinian statehood, showing that we aren't a total occupying power and giving the international community and the Iraqi people more power in their nation, and finding some way to create a government that the religious leaders will accept. A tough act, to say the least.

Darunia
Interesting that Americans loosing dogs on a helpless man chained to a wall and having them attack him until he's in a pool of blood doesn't cause such a reaction...

Because that prisoner:
1) Was a prisoner, thus he was a bad person. That doesn't justify such treatment, but it lessens the...well...gravity of the situation.
2) That prisoner is still alive, and as we speak is being put on a pedastal of attention. He's getting his revenge on those who wronged him.
3) The American is dead. He was serving his nation and, to the best of his ability, the good of humanity. He was brutally murdered. He was humiliated. Rather than condemn this, you almost rub our faces in it, saying "WELL HE DESERVED IT, BECAUSE A FUCKING DYKE IN THE ARMY MISTRATED A FEW IRAQIS."

A Black Falcon
I already proved why 1, 2, and 3 are all false in my last post.

Ryan
I think he's quite accurate on number 3. I don't know whether you're trying to make them look better, us look worse, or both, but that definitely seems to be your aim. You're downplaying the much more savage acts those animals are perpetrating by stating that we're not 100% Miss Perfect.

It's not as though this is the first time they've done this. We have the blood of 24 on our hands? How many hundreds, thousands of innocents do they have now? I've lost count. After all, last I heard, we weren't of a practice to start mailing our prisoners' bodies home in pieces.

A Black Falcon
It's called being balanced to all sides. Like, using a historical example, World War II. The other side was indisputably worse. But, for instance, we killed 500,000 Japanese by bombing their cities. We did the same to many towns in Vietnam. This is different, but my point is the same... if we want to take the high moral ground, which we try to and should, we have to act like it as well as say things! Saying "we are better and are here in Iraq to help you", and then acting almost as bad as the other ones, is not the way to either get the people to believe you or to make one inch of progress on the overall operation.

So, am I denigrating our people or lifting up terrorists? I'd say neither. I'm trying to balance both sides and not let the fact I'm American make me miss the big picture...

Now, people like Al-Quaida are obviously evil, as I said. We have to stop them. We should be trying harder at that... but I think I've detailed how Bush was incredibly stupid to abandon Afghanistan for Iraq before. :) But as I said, our acting almost as bad sends the absolute wrong message and inflames hatred. And, as we see here, inflames their hatred too. Now, would no scandal have saved that guy? Most likely not. That was Al-Quaida, after all, not some local resistance group. They'd have killed him either way. But it gives them a convenient excuse that the local people will listen to much more closely after seeing pictures like this!

As Israel, or India, or a billion other places, reacting to hatred with hatred only results in more hatred, not a resolution of the problem. It does the exact opposite and makes it worse. But it seems to be human nature to want to continue that hatred, unfortunately... which is why we have to work twice as hard to try to restrict that and to put our people in situations where they don't get the chance to do flagrant violations of the law despite their internal thoughts.

Which is where it ties into this. Now, I am sure that this is much more than one group. But I also think that the bad organization and lack of training is probably systematic. And when combined with military intelligence people who clearly did not care how the guards 'softened up' the inmates, it is a breeding ground for abuse... we should have seen it coming, and prepared by training guards and setting clear ground rules and combining with international organizations to do the task, but between Bush's incredibly stupid hatred of the international community and his administration's equally idiotic utter lack of post-war planning, that didn't happen...

In short, many people are doubtless guilty, and not all the guilty will be charged. But with stricter rules and better organization from the top the situation could have been mostly avoided. If we truly wanted to we could live up to our claims to be representing good.

And as a final comment, how are their acts so much more savage? Maybe by a slight degree, but it's no massive gulf as you suggest... (in the scope of the prisons and what went on there, not the whole American occupation)

alien space marine
Berg death was done by Al'qeada not Iraqi resistance.These Islamic terrorist dont even have a shread of Honnor, The Japanese never had taken civilians hostage and tried to use that get what they wanted,Doing so was dishonorable for the Japanese. The nazi had never done it either you dont see foreign Aid workers being beheaded on video in WW2,Infact the Nazis treated POW better then the Japanese they had a good understanding as to why the Geneva convention was important.

Muslims grab defenseless civilians and torture and cut their heads off , All in the name of their god lucifer.The Muslims are barbaric with no sense of concious and no were does a human life have any value by there god Allah.
The only good jihadist in all history was Saladin who treated prisoners like honnored quest before any such geneva convention existed.What the hell happend too the Muslims? They went from a advanced civilized society who valued the lives of innocent too a savage groups of death mongers who kill anything that moves with no sense of Honnor.

-iLluSiON-
All I can say that both sides of the story are fucked up.
The Americans abusing the Prisoners (I've seen all the pictures)
AND
The execution of this man (watched the movie)

It's a fucked up world out there... it's not going to really change.

Darunia
I don't believe that Canadians, and even Americans more so, are downplaying the sadistic decapitation of an American civilian because of a prisoner abuse scandal. THAT's the worst crime. He died for nothing thanks to you.

A Black Falcon
Happy to see you read my rebuttal of your "points", Darunia.

alien space marine
The iraqis are said to be outraged about berg beheading, The iraqi defense ministry said it was outragous and the ones behind it will be punnished.

-iLluSiON-
Haha. That's pretty funny because that cat actually looks somewhat like darunia.

DMiller
First off, I don't think the Al Qaeda murder is being downplayed at all in the media. ABF isn't really making an excuse for it, he's just trying to say that it is something we have come to expect from people with no morals. I don't think what we did is as bad as what Al Qaeda did, but that is only because no of those prisoners died. We are supposed to be showing that we are trying to help the Iraqi people, and degrading them in the worst way possible according to their beliefs is not going to help our cause in Iraq, and I certainly hope those soldiers, and any higher-ups who had a part of it, are charged to the fullest extent of the law. Although many of those prisoners may have been very bad people I'm sure there are some who were innocent of any crimes as in wartime things can get confusing and someone's actions can easily be misconstrued as a hostile act. Again, I don't want to downplay what Al Qaeda did since it is one of the most horrible things imaginable, but they are a minority of the Muslim people just like those American soldiers are a small percentage of American soldiers.

-iLluSiON-
what about the 3 confirmed homicides in the iraqi prison?

geoboy
They don't count because they're bad people who deserved to die. :rolleyes:

Darunia
Yea, I mean it's not like bad people deserve to die or anything. I'll tell that to your parents after I decapitate you on live tv, so that I'll get off with a slap on the wrist.

A Black Falcon
Yes, that's exactly what happened here... :rolleyes:

Nick Burns
I d/l the video, and forced myself to watch it. Its one of the few times that I have a sick feeling in my throat.

lazyfatbum
Oh those little camel jockies and their funny little god, how do they cause trouble.

Like I said, we torture our POW'S by making them wear women's underwear and disgracing them, which is awesome. And they do stuff like this to get our goat, but the fact is; America already KNOWS that they're inhuman bottom feeders and need to be killed off! They practically beg to be killed off, so I say give them what they want.

You can bet that if someone in America made a video that is exactly like that video but with a muslim in the place of the American, the entire world put us down for being muslim haters and that we're monsters. No one would blame the 7 people in the video, they would blame the COUNTRY and the GOVERNMENT. And that's exactly what I feel when I see that video.

alien space marine
It was the goverments fault , There sopposed to ensure Prisoners are treated in the respect of the Geneva convention.

I seem too see alot of americans blaiming all the Arabs for the 4 americans that were killed in Fallujah and Berg death.Some people are even are saying the prisoner abuse is justified because of the murders on americans.