View Thread : America to stay "One nation under God"


Great Rumbler
WASHINGTON - The Supreme Court preserved the phrase “one nation, under God,” in the Pledge of Allegiance, ruling Monday that a California atheist could not challenge the patriotic oath but sidestepping the broader question of separation of church and state.

At least for now, the decision — which came on Flag Day — leaves untouched the practice in which millions of schoolchildren around the country begin the day by reciting the pledge.

The court said atheist Michael Newdow could not sue to ban the pledge from his daughter’s school and others because he did not have legal authority to speak for her.

Newdow is in a protracted custody fight with the girl’s mother. He does not have sufficient custody of the child to qualify as her legal representative, the court said. Eight justices voted to reverse a lower court ruling in Newdow’s favor.

Justice Antonin Scalia removed himself from participation in the case, presumably because of remarks he had made that seemed to telegraph his view that the pledge is constitutional.

“When hard questions of domestic relations are sure to affect the outcome, the prudent course is for the federal court to stay its hand rather than reach out to resolve a weighty question of federal constitutional law,” Justice John Paul Stevens wrote for the court.

'Low blow'
“I may be the best father in the world,” Newdow said shortly after the ruling was announced. “She spends 10 days a month with me. The suggestion that I don’t have sufficient custody is just incredible. This is such a blow for parental rights.”

The 10-year-old’s mother, Sandra Banning, had told the court she has no objection to the pledge. The full extent of the problems with the case was not apparent until she filed papers at the high court, Stevens wrote Monday.

Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist agreed with the outcome of the case, but still wrote separately to say that the pledge as recited by schoolchildren does not violate the Constitution. Justices Sandra Day O’Connor and Clarence Thomas agreed with him.

The ruling came on the day that Congress set aside to honor the national flag. The ruling also came exactly 50 years after Congress added the disputed words “under God” to what had been a secular patriotic oath.

The high court’s lengthy opinion overturns a ruling two years ago that the teacher-led pledge was unconstitutional in public schools. That appeals court decision set off a national uproar and would have stripped the reference to God from the version of the pledge said by about 9.6 million schoolchildren in California and other western states.

Newdow’s daughter, like most elementary school children, hears the Pledge of Allegiance recited daily.

The First Amendment guarantees that government will not “establish” religion, wording that has come to mean a general ban on overt government sponsorship of religion in public schools and elsewhere.

The Supreme Court has already said that schoolchildren cannot be required to recite the oath that begins, “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America.”

The court has also repeatedly barred school-sponsored prayer from classrooms, playing fields and school ceremonies.

White House argued against Newdow
The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said the language of the First Amendment and the Supreme Court’s precedents make clear that tax-supported schools cannot lend their imprimatur to a declaration of fealty to “one nation under God.”

The Bush administration, the girl’s school and Newdow all asked the Supreme Court to get involved in the case.

The administration had asked the high court to rule against Newdow, either on the legal question of his ability to sue or on the constitutional issue. The administration argued that the reference to God in the pledge is more about ceremony and history than about religion.

The reference is an “official acknowledgment of our nation’s religious heritage,” similar to the “In God We Trust” stamped on coins and bills, Solicitor General Theodore Olson argued to the court.

It is far-fetched to say such references pose a real danger of imposing state-sponsored religion, Olson said.

Newdow claims a judge recently gave him joint custody of the girl, whose name is not part of the legal papers filed with the Supreme Court.

Newdow holds medical and legal degrees, and says he is an ordained minister. He argued his own case at the court in March.

The case began when Newdow sued Congress, President Bush and others to eliminate the words “under God.” He asked for no damages.

On Monday, Newdow said he would continue that fight.

“The pledge is still unconstitutional,” he said. “What is being done to parents is unconstitutional.”

Newdow had numerous backers at the high court, although they were outnumbered by legal briefs in favor of keeping the wording of the pledge as it is.

Both sides react
The Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said he is disappointed.

“The justices ducked this constitutional issue today, but it is likely to come back in the future,” Lynn said. “Students should not feel compelled by school officials to subscribe to a particular religious belief in order to show love of country.”

On the other side, the American Center for Law and Justice said the ruling removes a cloud from the pledge.

“While the court did not address the merits of the case, it is clear that the Pledge of Allegiance and the words ’under God’ can continue to be recited by students across America,” said Jay Sekulow, the group’s chief counsel.

Congress adopted the pledge as a national patriotic tribute in 1942, at the height of World War II. Congress added the phrase “under God” more than a decade later, in 1954, when the world had moved from hot war to cold.

Supporters of the new wording said it would set the United States apart from godless communism.

The case is Elk Grove Unified School District v. Newdow, 02-1624.


This is very good news for a lot of Americans, no doubt about that.

MSNBC (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5208621/)

A Black Falcon
Deceptive thread name. They didn't say that that line should or shouldn't stay in the Pledge. They dodged the question by dropping it on a technicality.a

Great Rumbler
Deceptive? Not really. While they did throw out the case based on a technicality, it does uphold the line "Under God" for now.

A Black Falcon
But it's not a definitive ruling. I'm sure now that someone will bring it up again.

Great Rumbler
Of course someone's going to bring it up again, but the rulling still means that the line is upheld. I do wish that they would have made a definite rulling on the constitutionality of that one line, since it appears they would have voted in favor of it, but I'm satisfied for now.

alien space marine
I think the real feeling is that people think , They were trying to erase and get rid of our belief in "God". But I understand why some would want this removed.

In canada we had The lords prayer and both the canadian and English national anthems, " God Save the queen" . The Lords prayer in school was removed in all provinces except one, Since the jews, Atheist,Non christians had problems with it, Surprisingly the Muslims did not.

God save the queen is gone not because of the religous references, But to show canada's indepedance from England.Also because two anthems and a prayer was time consuming.

I think placing bans in public places like france is going to far, Are you gonna put a kid in detention or suspend him because he made a quiet prayer to himself before he started to eat his food at lunch? Plus isnt it rediculous that you can have facial hair only if its not religous? I think the french law is racist and was directed specifically at the Muslims, Now the Sikes and Huindu all other groups are gonna have to quit school because they wont cut their beards because its a sin in their faith.

Fittisize
Flag day?

Great Rumbler
Lots of countries have it apparently.

EdenMaster
Good. Go back to California and shut up, you stupid person, you.

*raspberry*

The fact that he had the gall to think he could change a historic pledge just because he didn't like the G word. Well you know what, you're in the friggen minority so deal with it. Sheesh.

Ryan
I giggled like a fool when I saw this.

Not just because they made the right decision, not just because at least this time we didn't take a step backwards as a culture...

...but because it was extraordinarily satisfying to see that annoying, arrogant, self-important atheist prick go home defeated and pouting like the stupid California fuck he is.

Dark Jaguar
To be perfectly honest, I REALLY don't care at ALL about this sort of thing. Keep it, toss it, whatever. Doesn't matter to me. It's been added and dropped many times before and didn't have some drastic effect on America or people's ability to have faith. All I care about is how much money was wasted on such a non-issue here.

A Black Falcon
Don't say it? Sure, but you still have to LISTEN! Oh, for goodness sake. Get over it.

Edit: fuckin a, I thought I was quoting.... crap! Sorry! :(

alien space marine
You changed it to piss off them athiest Soviet commies.

I think what is it Alberta or Saskatchewan or somthing that still has the Lords Prayer every morning in alot of schools, Thats worse.

You also realize that swearing allegiance in itself is a act of worship and devotion.

A Black Falcon
You changed it to piss off them athiest Soviet commies.


That is exactly correct.

EdenMaster
Don't say it? Sure, but you still have to LISTEN! It's a prayer if there's ever been one and there's no way that it should be in public schools in that form.

So what? The majority of American citizens believes in God in some form, and if you don't, you can't expect them to change on your behalf. That's like demanding that McDonalds stop making burgers because you prefer hot dogs. It's pointless and absurd.

Just shut up and deal with it.

Ryan
Well damn, I went and turned one of ABF's posts into mine by mistake, I hit the edit button by mistake and didn't realize until I saw my post with ABF's name on it. I tried to fix it but it doesn't appear possible.

Sorry, ABF. I didn't do it intentionally. :(

A Black Falcon
Thanks for erasing my post... if anyone missed it, I was saying how that line was added for the express purpose of getting Americans to be more religious, and not just as a symbol of our religious heritage, so I don't see how it could possibly be anything other than a very thinly veiled prayer. As ASM said, it's there because they wanted to counter the evil godless commies. Hmm, I am REALLY wondering if it was meant just as a recognition of our religious heritage... :rolleyes:

What the Pledge is is a statement in school every day that everyone should be religious and believe in God and if you don't you aren't an American (you're a evil Commie, they'd say when they added it in). I don't think that that is very much in line with freedom of religion... or speech... or separation of church and state...

Geno
The Pilgrims came to America to escape religious persecution. Now, we won't have to leave America to escape religious persecution.

But I agree with DJ that it was ridiculous to spend so much money on deciding whether or not we should ban two words from the pledge.

Great Rumbler
The Pilgrims came to America to escape religious persecution. Now, we won't have to leave America to escape religious persecution.


No kidding, and now we'e got the ACLU running around the country telling any city or county that it has to remove anything religious from their seals even if it's of a historical nature.

ACLU = teh suck.

A Black Falcon
The Pilgrims ran to not just escape religious persecution, but to do it themselves. Remember, in Pilgrim areas you had to conform to their religious laws... it wasn't a protest about persecution, but trying to get away from the other guys' so they could do it their way. :)

alien space marine
Those Pilgrims did business with anyone.

The idea of starting a colony is to create your own fresh start and make your own laws. When in Rome do what the Romans do , If you dont like it leave and make your own thing,Which is how things worked then. The Colonies were not a unified country with the same equal laws.They were individual nations doing things there own way.This was before democracy the hole world was like this not just the Pilgrims.

But unlike the rest of the world the Pilgrims just wanted to keep to themselves , They didnt start wars on the other colonist,But they would trade with anyone even their rivals.

Great Rumbler
The Pilgrims ran to not just escape religious persecution, but to do it themselves. Remember, in Pilgrim areas you had to conform to their religious laws... it wasn't a protest about persecution, but trying to get away from the other guys' so they could do it their way.

Are you dumb? The official church of England at that time was heavy-handed against religious groups that didn't follow their teachings. The Pilgrims didn't like it so they got some ships together and sailed to America.

A Black Falcon
You ignored my point. When the Pilgrims arrived, they did exactly the same thing and made it so you had to belong to their church to live in their colonies... they didn't disagree with the idea of controlling which ideas people should live by, just the ones that the mainstream Anglicans had chosen. Their rules were just as heavy-handed towards anyone who wasn't one of them.

alien space marine
How severe was this persecution? Was it simpily your not welcome to live here ? Or did they run at them with Pitch forks and burn them alive like back in europe? Who was there to be persecuted?
I know some of the Pilgrims made freinds with the indians, Traded with them and even needed their help in knowing how to survive in north america.
All them Pilgrim decendants all banded together to fight agaist the english for independance.

The Question is who wants to live with them Pilgrims if you dont believe in their faith?You werent forced to live with them.

America became a melting pot of cultures eventually tolerance began when the constitution was written.

A Black Falcon
Tolerance? More so than many places but the different parts of the nation were definitely intolerant, just not in the same way. The Pilgrims? They had a lot of laws that made it just about impossible to live there unless you wanted to live like them, such as mandatory (very long) church services on sundays...

Great Rumbler
Still, the reason they came here was for the specific purpose of escaping persecution by the Church of England.

A Black Falcon
True. But it's ignoring a big part of the story.

alien space marine
I understand what ABF is getting at , People always seem to think people came here namely the Pilgrims and became such liberty freedom loving folks when in reality they just wanted to have their own seperate state for their own beliefs and theirs solely.

The reason many also came besides escaping persecution, Is the ability to finally have their own private land for themselves and in a way descide their own destiny.

Sacred Jellybean
This is a dumb debate. I wouldn't call being forced to listen to the words "under god" in one minute during a school day religious persecution. I, myself, don't really believe in god, or at least one that watches over us and protects us, but still, it wasn't traumatic to me IN THE LEAST to hear the words "under god" during the pledge of allegience every day.

If it were up to me, "under god" would be taken out of the pledge of allegience, simply because it's a pointless line (imo). At the same time, though, I think pressing charges against a school is a waste of money and time. Put up with it and shut up.

A Black Falcon
I wouldn't sue over it myself or anything, but it'd just be nicer if it wasn't there.

alien space marine
They say God, But Which God?God or Lord is a very vague wording , Under god could mean anything,It could be Zeus or Odin!Jesus even called Satan the God of this system of things.

Personally it should go , Religous leaders dabbeling in politics is the reason for the corruption that has tainted and brought reproach on gods name.Jesus said religious leaders cause a spiritual fornication when they get involved in the politics and doings of mans earthly goverment.

Church and state should stay seperate .

EdenMaster
I wouldn't sue over it myself or anything, but it'd just be nicer if it wasn't there.

It'd be nicer?? That's a stupid reason. If we were forcing people at gun point to say "Under God", that I could see, but if you don't agree with it, don't say it, and if it bothers you that much to hear other people say it, then you've really got some sensitivity problems.

When you say the pledge, just skip the part that says under God. I've heard people say "indivisible" in place of under God. It's not a big deal, it's two little words you have to hear once a day. If that's the most important thing you have to worry about, then you've got one hell of an easy life.

alien space marine
I think really, You should let the school board decide to use the current pledge or go back to the old pre 50's pledge or make a new one.

I think let the parents decide what they want and allow the school boards to make the decision on it.

Places populated with majority southern Baptist for exmaple may be more in favour the current pledge and since they make up the majority of people in the school in that area its up to them to decide what to do.

I believe in the everyone should win policy.I dont think a few whiners should decide for everyone.

A Black Falcon
By 'nicer' I mean 'much more pleasant'. It was annoying to have to listen to that every day... as I said, sure, you don't have to say it yourself, but you have to listen to the other people saying it and that's just as important...

Great Rumbler
I hear people all the time saying things I don't want to hear.

A Black Falcon
But this is in school. Normally when someone says something you don't want to hear you have an easy way to not have to listen...

Great Rumbler
But this is in school.

School was what I was talking about.

Dark Jaguar
I put up with a lot of stupid things in school that were said all the time myself. I mean, consider the pep rally. If you ask me, that's the biggest waste of time they ever forced me to go to, but it's not like I was FORCED to cheer. Sure, they guilted me about it, saying "what, you don't have any SCHOOL SPIRIT and PRIDE?!", but they didn't make me do anything except be there. No one ever said you had the right not to hear other people say things, ever.

A Black Falcon
Pep Rallies are idiotic and they shouldn't make anyone go. Fortunately, we only had three (one per year, at homecoming) when I was in highschool; there wasn't one in sophomore year because the year before a bunch of people who had then been juniors did stuff and got it canned the next year (when they were still there)... but they're stupid, so I wasn't exactly sad. :)

alien space marine
I hated them to , I somtimes ditch school for the day since thats all they were doing no clases at all,Went home and relaxed.

Unfortunately unlike ever before , I had a bad habait of jigging in high school.
especially when I changed to a school closer to home that was within walking distance.But surprisingly I would always see people that were jigging too.

A Black Falcon
I didn't miss a day of highschool, and never skipped a class...

... okay, so it's been a bit different at college, but that was true for highschool. It'd have been true in Jr. High too, but I missed two or three days because of sickness in each of 7th and 8th grades... 6th I also had perfect attendance. :)

alien space marine
In jr high only 3 people had perfect attendance in the hole school.

I didnt Jig then , So it was sickness or another reason like a family vacation.

I feel time much time is wasted in school on prep rallies,In some cases long boring pointless assemblies some of which take up the hole afternoon, I rarely even went to those and rarely did I ever miss anything important that I needed to ask what I missed.

In canada we have that ridiculous career day everywhere 3-4 months that takes up the hole day and no regular clases either , We make this big portfulio which we likely wont see again or even care to have it back,Sure maybe there is some good info on career planing, But how many of us remeber it by the time we finnish school? Most of us have no idea what we want to do in the future. For me have no clear cut goals and I have no ideas, That makes me depressed so I just concenstrate in the here and now .

Geno
Don't worry about what you wanna do for the rest of your life if you don't already have it planned. Just go with the flow and something'll come to you eventually. When it comes time to get a job, you can try something small like a bagger at a grocery store. Of course, that's not something you'd want to do for the rest of your life, but it can earn you money in the meantime.

Great Rumbler
I haven't missed a day of school in years.

Fittisize
I've skipped class four times this year. But it was only French class, and I don't really care about that.

Geno
I'm only out if it's for a fieldtrip (which is automatically an excused absence anyway) or if I'm sick. (Okay, so I do pull the Farris Bueler sometimes.)

nickdaddyg
Before I say anything, let me say I only had the patience to read about 9 or 10 posts.
Anyway, my stance:

1. This is a Christian founded nation.
2. The ACLU is aka liberals trying to take over the country. (As a matter of fact, I'm gonna make a post about them in here.)
3. If you don't like the phrase "under God" don't say it.
4. If you wanna try to sue or complain to the government, (for any reason but most likely just having something to complain about, or be "cool and rebellious and anti-government like Rag3 a9a1n5t th3 mach1ne!!!, or just wanting to feel sorry for yourself), then I say get the devil out of this country or be shot.

Great Rumbler
3. If you don't like the phrase "under God" don't say it.

Yeah, but what all those poor children who have to hear the word "God"? I mean good grief man they could be scared for life and become serial killers because of something so traumatizing!! Someone please think of the children!! And then there's the whole "Christian symbols on city/state seal make people feel unwelcome" which is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life, but the ACLU uses it all the time.

1. This is a Christian founded nation.

It was and many of the founding fathers were religious, not all but most of them were. One thing that invariably comes up is seperation of church and state. There's nothing in the constitution that says the two MUST be seperate, what it was designed to do was to keep the goverment from establishing a state-recognized church or from making laws that against some churchs in favor of others, not to bar religion from public view.

A Black Falcon
There are a lot of people who would argue that mentions of God in the way they are frequently made are now (but were not so much in 1792) disriminatory against some religions.

Ryan
There are a lot of people who do.

They're all still wrong.

alien space marine
Is that a water melon?

I thought of stealing Hitlers car out of a museum! How is that for a plan for my future?

Great Rumbler
I thought of stealing Hitlers car out of a museum! How is that for a plan for my future?

Considering that it's from a movie, not too great.

nickdaddyg
Yeah, but what all those poor children who have to hear the word "God"? I mean good grief man they could be scared for life and become serial killers because of something so traumatizing!! Someone please think of the children!! And then there's the whole "Christian symbols on city/state seal make people feel unwelcome" which is the most absurd thing I've ever heard in my life, but the ACLU uses it all the time.

That's the stupidity of the children. Well, actually it would be the parents' fault. They need to teach their kids better. Even if they are atheist parents with atheist kids, they should just say, "Kids if you ever hear about God, just don't care."

Well that pisses me off too because atheists are trash, IMO, but it's better than them complaining like bitches.

Darunia
I am so terribly against that being our motto... any nation "one under god" is NOT a nation free of religion bias.

Great Rumbler
http://img.fark.com/images/topics/obvious.gif

A Black Falcon
'God' is a pretty general religious term... yeah, not all religions would agree with that statement, but most of the big ones would.

Geno
The G word's not gonna hurt you. It won't bite.

Darunia
The G word's not gonna hurt you. It won't bite.

Wow, that's logical---so doesn't that mean that no words will ever harm anyone? Can I walk up to a thug in the Bronx, and call him a nigger---? I mean, it's just a word. It won't bite, right?


'God' is a pretty general religious term... yeah, not all religions would agree with that statement, but most of the big ones would.

So only the big ones count. A government that represents all of America, and is funded by all Americans, should not boast any particular interest. Muslins and atheists are Americans too. Fuck; even pagans and voodoo priestists are. It's not right that our equally-shared government proclaimes that we all are "under God." Psf.

A Black Falcon
Muslims believe in god too, Darunia. :) Other than athiesm there are just a few exceptions... Buddhism and Hinduism, kinda, not sure what else...

Great Rumbler
I mean, it's just a word. It won't bite, right?

Probably not, but the guy you said it too would probably beat you up.

Geno
Muslims believe in god too, Darunia. :) Other than athiesm there are just a few exceptions... Buddhism and Hinduism, kinda, not sure what else...

I think Darunia was referring to the fact that Muslims refer to God as Allah, but it's the same concept, just a different term.

A Black Falcon
Same god, too... remember, Islam is also a decendant of Judaism...

Geno
Indeed.

Dark Jaguar
You could say it's a different God in the sense that the slightest alteration to a religion makes it a new religion, with this a totally seperate instance of "God". Sorta like an altered copy of a program or something...

Anyway, you can't say the G word, or the J word! It's against standards and practises!

You see Jesus-

Voice: NO! UNACCEPTABLE!

Um, let's call him Je-wizzz... Je-wizz could offend some people, idiots mostly, so we can't mention that. Here are other things we can't have.

Watch how this nun reacts to this point-blank shotgun blast. *BANG* *nun's head is gone replaced with blood fountain*

Voice: NO! UNACCEPTABLE!

Okay, now let's alter that scene. *BANG* *nun's head is severed, but instead of blood, a rainbow comes out of there*

Voice: Yes, Acceptable!

There, looks like someone's about to get an A! Remember, standards and practises are all about keeping new and funny ideas away from you, the viewer.

Great Rumbler
Ted Nugent?

Dark Jaguar
Yeah, it's Ted Nugent, you know, all up there in the butt of the gun. See?

Darunia
America: 100% Christian-Muslim---how can you tell? Because the whole population is represented under that motto. Why not just change the motto to "In White People We Trust"? The majority of the country is (for now) white; who cars about the little ones on the side?

Ryan
Darunia, you're so cute when you're anal.

Darunia
Why are all Christians so arrogant---? Is it because in addition to fairy tales about talking snakes and men in clouds, they're raised with a haughty 'I'm better than you because I love Jesus' attitude? The answer is a definitive yes.

Dark Jaguar
Um, that was rude... and I'm fairly certain it was also blindly hypocritical...

I mean you... you ARE aware that what you said... well, that is to say... were you trying to be ironic there or what? That was a very arogant and insulting thing to say, that's all.

Ryan
Why are all Christians so arrogant---? Is it because in addition to fairy tales about talking snakes and men in clouds, they're raised with a haughty 'I'm better than you because I love Jesus' attitude? The answer is a definitive yes.
What does being arrogant have to do with my beliefs?

I could be a shintoist, for all it matters. You're still way too anal, and you prove it every time you post in this thread. :)

Besides, I AM better than you. Being a man of Christ is only a small reason why.

:love:

*awaits the next blubbering anti-christian tirade. Lord, I apologize*

Dark Jaguar
Hey Weltall, what's with using your Earther name?

Darunia
Awe, shucks guys--its just that all the Christians I know (those here being no exception) are just so closed-minded. Now you'll fire-back saying that I'm closed-minded; but in fact I'm not, and had a faulty religious stint in 7th grade. I'd love to believe in an after-life, but folks, it just ain't there from what I'm seeing. You've all been raised into a religion that you otherwise would never have come across; that alone should raise an eyebrow on the sheep-issue---as for me, I was raised independent of any religious issues (my mother agnostic, my father perhaps atheist, but if so, he doesn't care either way as much as I do,) and in a bias-free environment (with deeply religious grandparents), I came out as is.

Ryan
That's absurd. I was raised in a home that was only barely religious, and I was an atheist for several years. I believe what I believe because of my life experience, not because I was indoctrinated. I do not belong to a church. I believe the Bible is metaphors, not exact, bald doctrine. I don't listen to so-called 'religious leaders' because I distrust many of them. Even with all that, I still have my faith, and it is MY faith. And I'm not close-minded at all. I don't care what you believe. But for you to say you are not close-minded is ridiculous. You're constantly insulting Christians in general for their beliefs and faith, and you don't even try to mask it. You call us close-minded simply because we do not agree with you. It is YOU who is being the arrogant ass about this matter. I don't care what you want to believe, and I'm not going to waste a second trying to convert you, but you're acting just like a charicature of a firebrand Christian preacher, only in reverse.

Grow up.

Great Rumbler
You've all been raised into a religion that you otherwise would never have come across

Unless we live in India or Germany where Christianity is spreading rapidly...

A Black Falcon
Why are all Christians so arrogant---? Is it because in addition to fairy tales about talking snakes and men in clouds, they're raised with a haughty 'I'm better than you because I love Jesus' attitude? The answer is a definitive yes.

This is pretty much correct. Though religion is only one of many reasons that Americans feel like they're better than everyone else, not the only one.

Religious people close minded? Many are. Not all. If you can say 'I know that there is no proof and that all the evidence points towards an ordered universe run by laws that has existed for we don't know exactly how long, etc, but I think that in some way there is a deity that has influenced how it progressed/the laws of nature/etc', then it's more reasoned. But if it's 'God created the world'...

And it is an absolute fact that religion makes it a WHOLE lot easier to not think. They tell you how to think and you listen! That's how most religion works. Makes things really easy for the people... thinking is hard, after all! It's a LOT easier to not think than it is to think.

Ryan
This is pretty much correct. Though religion is only one of many reasons that Americans feel like they're better than everyone else, not the only one.

Religious people close minded? Many are. Not all. If you can say 'I know that there is no proof and that all the evidence points towards an ordered universe run by laws that has existed for we don't know exactly how long, etc, but I think that in some way there is a deity that has influenced how it progressed/the laws of nature/etc', then it's more reasoned. But if it's 'God created the world'...

And it is an absolute fact that religion makes it a WHOLE lot easier to not think. They tell you how to think and you listen! That's how most religion works. Makes things really easy for the people... thinking is hard, after all! It's a LOT easier to not think than it is to think.
That's kind of taking the holier-than-thou approach, classifying us as morons, essentially, who are told what to think and believe it. Of course, if it were that simple, there would be one religion and one denomination of it. Obviously, that's not so, and there is much, much debate about aspects of religion within religions, to say otherwise is foolish.

Of course, it is also worth noting that it is very easy to deny everything out of hand, and doing so doesn't make you any freer a thinker than I am. After all, everyone's beliefs, no matter what they are and what subject they cover, is without exception based, to varying degrees, on someone else's ideas and concepts. Implying that we are sheep is straight hypocrisy. Just because non-believers are a minority doesn't make their beliefs more legitimate.

What you athiests need to realize is that you are a minority. And because of that, you will be subjected to things you may not agree with. That is the essence of BEING a minority, in absolutely any sort of category you please. As I said, I don't care if you choose to believe whatever you believe, but I think you people are pushy and arrogant too, and frankly, there is nothing other than the absence of a deity that seperates atheism from religion. Christianity has it's bad people, no doubt. Most Christians dislike the Pat Robertsons of the world. But the atheists who militantly devote themselves to the eradication of God in every aspect of public life are in every way as rotten and evil.

What I'm trying to say is: Believe whatever you want. Most people believe differently, and they have the same right to be as open about it as you people are. Respect that. And get over yourselves. You're no better or more advanced than anyone else.

alien space marine
Why are all Christians so arrogant---? Is it because in addition to fairy tales about talking snakes and men in clouds, they're raised with a haughty 'I'm better than you because I love Jesus' attitude? The answer is a definitive yes.

Are you sure your not Christian? Cause you fit that description pretty good.

The first sign of arogance is generalization, believing a entire group especially one so big is all the same! Thats not any different then racist who believe all Blacks are criminals and thugs.

If you said " some Christians I met were arogant dick heads but I know not all of them are like that" , Id respect you. The fact you believe we are all evil down to the core which I know with alot of certainty you believe this as too deny it would be contradictary, You are full of prejidice and prejidice isnt enlightenment.

Darunia
Are you sure your not Christian? Cause you fit that description pretty good.

Are you confusing me for Christian? Cuz I hereby denounce Jesus Christ. There, that should clear that up for you. :shake:

The first sign of arogance is generalization,

Says you.

believing a entire group especially one so big is all the same! Thats not any different then racist who believe all Blacks are criminals and thugs.

Say that again in a clear, concise manner.

If you said " some Christians I met were arogant dick heads but I know not all of them are like that" , Id respect you. The fact you believe we are all evil down to the core which I know with alot of certainty you believe this as too deny it would be contradictary

Go ahead and exaggerate it there; 'evil to the core'---how did you get that from 'sheep' and 'arrogant' ? Don't put words in my mouth.

You are full of prejidice and prejidice isnt enlightenment.

Really---cuz I thought they were synonyms. Silly me! (*SPELLED: PREJUDICE)

Apprenez à épeler!

alien space marine
http://www.uncleclive.co.uk/nazicatactress.jpg

Darunia worships Hitler!

alien space marine
Are you confusing me for Christian? Cuz I hereby denounce Jesus Christ. There, that should clear that up for you. :shake:

What did Jesus do to desserve such hate?Name one thing bad that he did to you or anyone.

Says you.



Say that again in a clear, concise manner.

Why should I? Weltall speaks better then I do and nothing he says makes any difference to you anyways. I think you understood what I meant or atleast some of it , You would much rather bitch at my grammar then be forced to answer that cause you cant or wont admit it.


Go ahead and exaggerate it there; 'evil to the core'---how did you get that from 'sheep' and 'arrogant' ? Don't put words in my mouth.

I dont need to




Really---cuz I thought they were synonyms. Silly me! (*SPELLED: PREJUDICE)

Since you know how to spell the word maybe its time to check the definition and meditate on it while your at it.

Apprenez à épeler!

Mangez la merde

Darunia
What did Jesus do to desserve such hate?Name one thing bad that he did to you or anyone.

What did the boogie man do to deserve such a bad wrap---neither exist, do what difference does it make. Christ, ASM, you're defending a story book character.

Why should I?


...BECAUSE ITS UNINTELLIGIBLE GARBLE.

I think you understood what I meant or atleast some of it ,


...no, I honestly didn't.

I dont need to

Yet you do it anyway.

Mangez la merde

Va sucer ta grandmère potelée.

Ryan
What did Jesus do to desserve such hate?Name one thing bad that he did to you or anyone.

What did the boogie man do to deserve such a bad wrap---neither exist, do what difference does it make. Christ, ASM, you're defending a story book character.
And you're angrily bashing someone you think is a mere storybook character. If you think that's all Jesus is, why do you keep pressing the point?

I mean, seriously, you're fighting a hopeless battle here, unless your only intent is to make sure you tell everyone who would listen why you have a bizarre, antipathetic vendetta against the most peaceful man who ever lived.

Dark Jaguar
Darunia, the problem is you started this attack. For SOME reason, you insist on convincing us, in a VERY angry fasion, to stop thinking what we think. What did our thoughts ever do to you, personally?

alien space marine
What did the boogie man do to deserve such a bad wrap---neither exist, do what difference does it make. Christ, ASM, you're defending a story book character.

ABF is atleast more logical and reasonable to admit that Jesus weither he was christ or not might have been a real person like Muhammad and Confucist. A religion always has a founder even the scientific evolution theory had a founder. Calling him just a story book character like Tom Sawyer is ignorant as he is a historical figure his life and death even is the basis of our calendar and time cronology B.C.E and A.D,Since the jews were exiled and scatterd by the Romans all records of birth and death were lossed.

A Black Falcon
Yeah, he was almost certainly a real person. Sure there are theories out there about how he wasn't real, but it just doesn't seem like that makes much sense. He was real, he had a very idealistic philosophy that was made more so once written down, and there's no way that humanity could ever live up to all of what he says.

He was also probably mentally ill in some way, as most people who truly think they hear God are, but hey... lots of people who have done great things have had mental illnesses. :)

Dark Jaguar
Mental illnesses ROCK!

Anger Persona: NO THEY DON'T! DIE!

Some guy: So Jesus did say "let he who is clean of all sin cast the first stone", which means we need to BOMB THE MIDDLE-EAST INTO A CRATER!

Great Rumbler
Hmm...I don't think that's what he meant.

Darunia
All right---I'll make a deal with you:

Tonight I will pray (honestly) to Jesus; if the Red Sox win the world series, I'll say to him, I will:

1.) Never speak out against religion in TC again.
2.) Formally admit the possibility of his existence in a binding edict.
3.) Formally apologize to all Christians around the world here at TC in an edict.


...but...

If we don't win,

all I ask of you (the Christian community here) is that you be more flexible and understanding with me and my anti-religious frustration. That's all. More understanding.

Deal?

Dark Jaguar
Maybe in context, but the key to my argument is taking everything Christ said completely OUT of context to support whatever I have to say!

Christ: "....cast....stone...."

See? He supports killing sinners, with rocks!

A Black Falcon
Taking things out of context is one of the keys of justifying anything religiously, sadly...

Darunia
Everytime you corner a Christian, he just wiggles free. You nail them with a fact, and they cast it off with some semantics. Why bother. They live and die by a 2,000 year-old tome, and when one points out the countless errors in it, they say "oh, well, don't take it too seriously/its not meant to be taken word-for-word/that was then this is now/thats a bad translation/thats not what God intended to say..." Make up your minds.

So my deal is rejected I assume. It expires at noon tomorrow, or at 12:00pmEST 8-29-04.

Ryan
Er, I don't get it.

With the possible exception of ASM, everyone here accepts your atheism. On the contrary, it is you who seems to be unable to accept the fact that everyone else here doesn't conform to your views. I understand why you think like you do, because I felt the same way once. However, I also understood why others did not feel the same as I did, and I have no trouble doing that now that I went back to Christianity.

You, however, seem to take great pleasure in painting Christians as stupid, mindless robots, and blame practically all of the world's woes on us.

I don't care if you do speak your views and opinions, it's an open board. But you are seriously in greater need of flexibility and understanding than we are. If you can't accept us for our faith, then leave us alone, because if you want to change anyone's mind, you're going about it entirely in the wrong way, nobody here is going to abandon faith in God because we're getting insulted by the likes of you.

So I have a deal for you:

Accept the fact that most people in general, and many here in particular, are Christians. The rest of us will return the favor, as we have been for a long time, and for at least myself, in spite of wanting to return some of the really nasty and venomous shit you say about us.

If you can't do it for our sake, do it for yourself. Tolerance makes you a better person.

A Black Falcon
Darunia's not the most logical person here...

Dark Jaguar
Oh and, I assume I don't have to point out that praying for teams to win is certainly something God will totally ignore. It really doesn't matter if those are the terms. God determines the terms of how He acts, not you, so to say "He didn't do exactly what I told him, which means He admits He doesn't exist, or just plain doesn't exist!" is stupid. You can't go up to someone and say "if you don't answer me, you are admitting defeat!", it doesn't WORK that way!

Anyway, no matter, at any rate Weltall's points are pretty much valid. I've NEVER pushed my religion on you. I've only spoken about it and defended my views when YOU attacked.

Let me ask you something. Do you find me just TALKING about it to be personally offensive, even when I'm not even TALKING to you? If that's the case, all I have to say is grow up.

alien space marine
I seriously needed growing of my own when dealing with other peoples beliefs and being tolerant, I accept Darunia's Atheism its fine because Atheist doesnt = Evil as I have met good nice kind reasonable people who were Atheist that were never closed minded on any issue unfortunately Darunia doesnt fit the group since he believes christianity = evil with no common sense since he believes arogance and stupidity go imediately with chrisitianity , I could relate and understand that people in the past gave him bad impressions but its hard to sympathize if he is proverbaily slaping you at every chance and ridicules your beliefs at every turn. Then my grammar thing but thats a seperate issue he isnt alone in it. I accept that Darunia is a Atheist I dont go to Neo and ABF on the issue since they respect me and in turn I respect them and I know their standing ,If my beliefs that I hold dear are bashed or ridiculed its only human nature to want to defend it.

As for Darunia's last chance thing, Dont be ridiculous we will do whatever we please its a free country.

Darunia
*Sigh*


As for Darunia's last chance thing, Dont be ridiculous we will do whatever we please its a free country.

You act as though we live in the same country.

alien space marine
You act as though we live in the same country.

Its an expression! Sheesh! My Country is more free then yours! :hump:

Why even *Sign*? Are you plotting to takeover the world or somthing? Why the sudden interest in gathering followers?

*Hears the Goron infantry arrive*! To our astonishment god pretrifies most of the infantry into stone ,The survivors huddle together and sodomy ensues.

Mean while Goronia Is in mass panic and it stirs up a total economic collaspe! Which in turns leads to more sodomy!

God in a fit of rage decrees that Sodom and Goronia must be purged from the world.But out of Mercy he will spare the city rather then allow a single righteous soul be harmed in the process,Which in turn is a small poodle which then is savagely raped by sex crazed gorons and dies from internal injuries.
God hearts sinks at the loss of the innocent creature's life , Angry but still merciful calls on the Goron king to end the perversion and ungodlyness within the two cities so they may be spared his wraith, Darunia's immediate reaction is to cut off his pants and bend over and stretch his anus at the face of god!

God sends a fire ball from the sky and aims into the open crevasse of Darunia bum hole, Darunia's ass instantly exploids! Followed by his genitals errupting into flames.

Darunia transfers his mind and concious into a new healthy bionic body before his original vessel gives out from its wounds.Robo Darunia is born but without a penis. meanwhile God begins preparation to destroy Sodom and Goronia gathers his legions of angels preped for battle.

To be Continued!

Yes I now ended the retardation by starting somthing more retarded.

Dark Jaguar
"it's a free country" HAS to be said to others living in the SAME country! That's the only way it makes SENSE! Expressions DO have parts that must be taken literally you know!

alien space marine
Once Again DJ proves that he is eccentric everything has to be perfect , Takes everything seriously.There is alot of expressions that if taken literally wouldnt make much sense at all, Now of course this expression is american but other people who watch american tv shows in canada,UK,Aussie land why not just reinterpret it? If I said "its a free country" I could be reffering to my own country therefore I dont have to abide by you,Now I could say I live in a free country but thats not as cool !

Darunia
---to pick up when ASM left off,


and then ASM wakes up in an insane asylum.



LA FIN

Dark Jaguar
...

You just don't get the nature of our expressions...

Don't take it personally...

Yeesh.

Geno
Do I want to get involved in another religious debate?

...nah, not really.

Dark Jaguar
I'm stepping out now, but honestly, I wish ASM would too. You AREN'T helping ASM!

alien space marine
---to pick up when ASM left off,


and then ASM wakes up in an insane asylum.



Not La Fin

But discovers that he is a psyciatrist treating Darunia for mass psycosis, Darunia believes he is a gay elephant so my prognosis is a complete total Labotomy.Concidering its 1920 its till possible to cut out peoples brains!

THE END! LA FIN!

Darunia
believes he is a gay elephant

Did you know that Prussian general Blücher (think Waterloo) went insane, and thought that he was pregnant with an elephant; and that the father was a French grenadier...? :gay2:

Great Rumbler
That's kind of messed up.

Dark Jaguar
And now it's time to listen in on yet another "Darunia calls his representatives moment".

-------------------------------------

Darunia: I want to know your position on important issues! I want to know whether or not those A-holes down the street are going to be EXECUTED for not bending their knees and repenting for their beliefs! I want to know if they are gonna be flatulated in the public square because they won't stop telling me to mow my frickin' lawn! I don't CARE if it's attacking their children! It's good for them! Teaches them not to trust shrubbery! And another thing, why can't I go to Denny's any more? They got this picture up of me and something about gardening tools and a restraining order, and they never let me de-convert anyone any more! They are restricting my freedom to practice my lack of religion as I see fit! And when are ya guys going to get rid of gravity? It's annoying me to no end and it's stepping over government control! And I gotta ask about the lack of Goron-related...

Representative: ....that's it I'm starting a war with Canada or something...

----------------------------

Precious, isn't it? Tune in next time when Darunia calls up his plumber!

Darunia: I WILL BRING A WORLD OF HURT TO YOU!

Narrator: Nerherher, that's funny stuff! Tune on in!

Geno
Wërd.

Darunia
DJ--the last person who mocked my empire went home air freight---and in very small boxes.

Great Rumbler
*mocks Darunia's empire*

Private Hudson
You'd have a better chance asking the devil to help your team win the world series..

After all, it is the devil who controls the physical world, not God. How else could he offer it to Jesus?

But then again, I hardly think the devil would do that for you, considering that it would result in you being less hateful toward God. So, yunno. :)

Darunia
Note his condescending, smug Christian tone---he offers no admittance that its possible that neither his god nor his devil exist, but rather he acts (and talks) reassuredly that they do. THIS is what I'm talking about; arrogant Christians---offering no quarter. I'm fed up with their supriority.

Dark Jaguar
What condescending smug tone? He just believes in it, that's all. He's just EXPLAINING things to you. When you decide to pretend God exists and then CHALLENGE that diety, it's not like we aren't going to point out what our religion is ACTUALLY like if you get it wrong.

You really DO misinterpret people. You seem to see us in anger tinted glasses or something, interpretting EVERY word we say as some sort of hostile gesture. Why?

Great Rumbler
Note his condescending, smug Christian tone---he offers no admittance that its possible that neither his god nor his devil exist, but rather he acts (and talks) reassuredly that they do. THIS is what I'm talking about; arrogant Christians---offering no quarter. I'm fed up with their supriority.

Since when have you ever admitted it's possible that God exists? Besides, that's kind of how believing in something goes. You believe in it and disregard other possibilities unless given good reason to change your mind.

Ryan
Note his condescending, smug Christian tone---he offers no admittance that its possible that neither his god nor his devil exist, but rather he acts (and talks) reassuredly that they do. THIS is what I'm talking about; arrogant Christians---offering no quarter. I'm fed up with their supriority.
Okay. You ignored totally what I said earlier. So, let me put it to you a little more straight:

STOP FUCKING WHINING.
Jesus loves you. :love:

Private Hudson
Note his condescending, smug Christian tone---he offers no admittance that its possible that neither his god nor his devil exist, but rather he acts (and talks) reassuredly that they do. THIS is what I'm talking about; arrogant Christians---offering no quarter. I'm fed up with their supriority.

Actually, Darunia, I'm quite undecided.

Just pointing out that you were asking the wrong person. :)

Geno
Note his condescending, smug Christian tone---he offers no admittance that its possible that neither his god nor his devil exist, but rather he acts (and talks) reassuredly that they do. THIS is what I'm talking about; arrogant Christians---offering no quarter. I'm fed up with their supriority.

I do seem to recall a number of times in which you offered no admittance to the possibility that God and Satan exist, and instead ridiculed those of us who believe by stating once and for all that God, Satan, and even Jesus (who has actual historic records to prove His existance) do not exist. Then you call us arrogant for showing the same attitude to a much lesser extent.

Yes, I know I said I wouldn't get involved, but there's nothing I hate more than savage hypocracy.

Ryan
I mean, what the fuck does he want? That every time I should type God* or Jesus*, I have to mark it with an asterisk attached to a footnote stating that there is some possibility neither being ever existed?

Seriously... burning heretics at the stake sounds so damn funny right now.

*may not really exist

Sacred Jellybean
*Rtan leads beano to the cross*

bean: Uh... I don't know how I'm supposed to stand up against this thing when you tie me to it... could you... uh... show me?

Rtan: My fucking God*! This isn't that complicated! You just stand on top the pile of hay put your back up against the cross like this... you watching? I'm not gonna do this again... then hold your arms horizontally like this... then I'm gonna tie your wrists and ankles to it... (*!!!! MAY NOT EXIST !!!!)

bean: ...like this? *ties his wrists and ankles to the cross*

Rtan: Yes, of course! Then, I'm gonna burn you... uh...

bean: ...like this? *throws match into the haystack*

Rtan: Ah... shit. *burns*

Darunia
*Officially proclaims the minute possibility of the existence of a deity and its mortal son*

Great Rumbler
*Officially proclaims the minute possibility that Darunia isn't really as bad a person as he acts*

I'm only kidding! You know we love ya, Darunia! :kiss: :goron: