View Thread : Fahrenheit 9-11 anyone?


Private Hudson
Was just curious if anyone had seen this movie, or had any reviews of it to give?

Thought the topic belonged in this section due to the nature of Michael Moore, and the many politcal arguements I've seen on this board. :)

EdenMaster
Oh, look at what you did, Hudson. You've created a thread that will undoubtedly spark an incediary debate that will linger on for months, knowing this forum. Eh, by now I'm used to it.

As for the movie, I have seen it. While Moore does put forth some strong facts, his movie only documents his side of the story, the side that helps his case. It had a powerful impact, quite a few good parts to it, I admit, but I'm not taking what he's presented to heart so quickly, as he probably omitted some topics just as potent which defy his.

His look at the war in Iraq, though, was intriquing. What the hell <i>are</i> we doing over there, anyhow?

Fittisize
I plan to see it, just as soon as I muster up the courage to watch a documentary in a theater. I liked Bowling for Columbine and his books, and I'll probably like this too.

Private Hudson
Well I've never really kept up with MM, himself. But from what I've heard, people are already over his movie, claiming that it's full of lies (much like Bowling for Columbine [what were the lies in that movie, anyhow?]) and is just anti-American propaganda.

But those that aren't so militant in their beliefs found it to be extremely entertaining and funny, albeit far-fetched. I won't go into the movie looking for insight into American politics, rather a good laugh. I would be interested, however, to read many rebuttle arguements generated toward the 'facts' in the movie.

EdenMaster
He's not anti-American, he's anti-Bush, and this movie tries to illustrate his point, and make everyone else anti-Bush. Well, I don't need any help with that. Bush needs to leave office, even if it means Kerry the Weasel has to take his place. Bush is in that office now because of his daddy, and I don't want someone to be in the Oval Office just because of his heritage. Monarchy didn't work out well under it, let's not start it with democracy, now.

Ryan
I value my self-respect too highly to ever willingly subject myself to a Michael Moore shlockumentary. If I wanted to watch bullshit I could rub it in my eyes for free.

alien space marine
I would see it , But only for the entertainment factor, because Moore is funny!Bowling For Columbine was sopposed to make us hate violence but instead Moore did it in such a sick sarcastic way it was funny to see people get executed in his little clips because the music was just so silly.

The Part about Bush giving permission for Khalif Bin ladin(?) to leave the country when no plane could even fly in the sky ,Many of the victims families were stuck in flight themselves stranded either in canada some backwater in the states.Why does the Brother of the man responsible get such special treatment while so many sufferd?Osama's brother could have been a suspect the fact is nobody likes under the table deals and cover ups and we dont know if the Bin Ladins still are helping Osama?The Saudis are Vermon , Look crown prince Abdullah blaimed 9/11 and the terrorism on the Jews and isrealis and the prince is a family freind of the Bushs.

I hope Ryan you will see this movie , Even if just to critize it,It probaily is a entertaining funny movie like Columbine was.

EdenMaster
He's right Ryan, it's at least worth a watch. Even if you don't agree with him, he makes an entertaining movie at the least.

Great Rumbler
Fahrenheit 911 is a TRAVESHAMOCKERY!!

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Actually, I haven't seen it. I just wanted to say "traveshamockery".

Dark Jaguar
Those commercials are the only funny commercials I've seen in a long time...

Anyway, I make it a point not to watch a frickin' documentary in a theater. I don't see the point. WHY exactly do I want to see that blown up on a giant screen in super ultra sound, exactly? Seems a waste to me to see a movie that isn't meant to actually drag you into a compelling story, and doesn't even make use of that technology in a theater. I'll watch it where the technology sucks, my TV, as this movie is SUPPOSED to be watched. Besides that, this isn't something to watch in the company of strangers, because there's actual opinions here and I might suddenly get embarressed for even being there at certain points.

alien space marine
Does the Terminal or Dodge ball actually make use of the theatres abilities?


Not all of Moore points are anti Bush,He critized the senate for not reading bills before passing them.Apparently only 15 minutes of the movie are about Bush specificaly alot of the rest critizes corporate america and alot of the morons.

A Black Falcon
I saw this movie on Monday. Theater was full for that show, the next show... every show that weekend was sold out, I think. Between how much people were looking forward to it and the fact that only three theaters are showing it in this state, the one in town showing it is pretty popular now... :)

It's a very well done documentary. (DJ, it's "supposed" to be watched in a theater. That's why it's there... :)) He puts together a good case, and presents it really well... the music choices always go PERFECTLY with what is being shown on the screen. :D Yes, he only presents one side of the story. Yes, there are a few places where you could accuse him of leaving out part of the story. Want examples? The ones I can think of... -United Defence -- they have definitely benifited from this administration, but they did have their Crusader artillery system cancelled... -the Bin Ladens -- still not sure when they actually left. Could have been on the 14th when some civilian travel started that they actually left... there was a flight on the 13th but some reports have it not leaving the country. The point about not questioning them certainly stands though. -Ashcroft. It isn't precisely true that they were voting for a dead guy; they knew that someone would be appointed in the seat and they knew that that someone would be the dead guy(Carnahan, right?)'s wife. But all documentaries have small issues like that, and it's a lot funnier to think of people voting for a dead guy over John Ashcroft... :)

ASM, it is impossible for Congress to read all the bills put before it. No congress does anywhere in the world. The bills are far too long and there are far too many of them for it to be even remotely possible... you cannot expect all the bills to be fully read. Especially not a security law called the "USA PATRIOT Act" put before congress days after 9/11.

Oh yeah, the movie made more in its opening weekend -- 23 million -- than any documentary had ever made in its whole run. Previoius best: Bowling for Colombine, 21 million. :)

alien space marine
ASM, it is impossible for Congress to read all the bills put before it. No congress does anywhere in the world. The bills are far too long and there are far too many of them for it to be even remotely possible... you cannot expect all the bills to be fully read. Especially not a security law called the "USA PATRIOT Act" put before congress days after 9/11.

Oh yeah, the movie made more in its opening weekend -- 23 million -- than any documentary had ever made in its whole run. Previoius best: Bowling for Colombine, 21 million.

I searched every local movie theatre webpage to find the movie , But not even Ottawa has Fahreheit 9/11.Bowling for Columbine was halirious maybe not the most factual or accurate movie but definently amusing. He did have alot of excellent points, He never bashes the little guy just the big dumb rich guy,But guess now all those books and movies must make Micheal Moore a dumb Rich fat white man.I think Fahrenheit 9/11 is doing great for the same reason passion of the Christ did, All that Contriversy is free advertisement. :gay2:

Sure not all bills can be followed and read, But its no excuss, We cant have the bill makers have so much power to abuse. The patriot act is a important bill that should not have been taken lightly.

A Black Falcon
But with a name like that, in a time like that, and with such a short timespan to consider a huge bill, I don't blame them for passing it without reading it. It was a setup by the administration and one that I don't think many people could have dodged... the 99-1 vote in the Senate proves that point beyond question.

Dark Lord Neo
ASM, I just talked to my cousing and he saw the movie, in Ottawa, it was at one of the alternative theaters though, not a big chain

I want to see the movie, and I probably will when I get the chance. I think it's funny that such a big deal was made of this movie, now because all those Republicans put up such a fuss more people will see the movie. Before it probably would have just been liberals who were already going to vote against Bush and pretty much agreed with moore. BUt now other people will be seeing the movie too and Moore may even manage to convert some people.

I liked how Moore came up here during our election campaign and warned people not to vote for the conservatives, he said it would make him look bad because he's always talking about how Canada is smarter than the US and if we turned around and elected someone who was like Bush as Prime Minister we'd make him look stupid

Ryan
I still won't see it. There are many movies I do want to see but never have the time or money to enjoy. I would not waste an iota of either to see yet another propaganda parade this tubby, anti-American baconfuck unleashes.

EdenMaster
All right, but I still say you're missing out, and maybe being just a tad closed-minded to dismiss what he has to say just because he's Michael Moore and he points out that our president is a bad leader. That's all. Not that we didn't already know that.

But hey, do what you like.

alien space marine
ASM, I just talked to my cousing and he saw the movie, in Ottawa, it was at one of the alternative theaters though, not a big chain

I live in Gatineau , The only Major movie theatres are famous players with the colosus and silver city chains.It waisnt at ours, So I checked Ottawa and it waisnt there either.Were did he go?

I will probaily will see it on dvd ,Since King Arthur looks great especially with Keira knightly.

Welty should see it on DVD if he wont see it now,Although it will probaily be after the election which destroys the point.

A Black Falcon
ASM, I'd expect it to be in art house movie theaters -- not major chains, but small theaters that show documentaries, foreign films, etc. In this state for instance the three places showing it are all not chains, but small theaters that show limited-run films...

And yes, Weltall should see it sometime. Oh, sure, he'll disagree with everything, but it should be seen if just for its great presentation and humor...

Fittisize
This movie was playing at Cineplex Odeon, the largest theatre in Edmonton and one of the largest in Canada.

Weltall-Moore isn't anti-American, he's anti-Bush. What does being anti-American have to do with anything, anyways?

A Black Falcon
Yeah, the movie is quite sympathetic to poor people... one of his main points is that poor people are what make up our army and what they deserve is not to be sent to war without a really good reason. This is not that.

... oh wait, Weltall doesn't agree with that, he doesn't care about poor people and thinks they deserve everything they get...

Ryan
Oh yes, Michael Moore, a shameless multi-millionaire, has any moral basis on which to preach about the plight of the poor. Right. He cares so much, in between counting his stacks of money and his bi-annual groomings.

I hate limousine liberals. Why doesn't Baconfuck, instead of wasting millions making his subversive propaganda, donate that money to the poor?

*dur*

Everyone in the military today is a volunteer. Only a minute portion of them will ever see combat. It's a great opportunity for the poor, as the military basically pays your whole damn education, which they might otherwise never get. Plus, they learn much discipline, which makes achieving goals much easier. Frankly, it's a great thing.

But that again comes down to you wanting the poor to be perpetual dependents on the government, so of course you frown down on them having opportunities for advancement, you just lack the moral fiber to actually come right out and say so.

EdenMaster
But that again comes down to you wanting the poor to be perpetual dependents on the government, so of course you frown down on them having opportunities for advancement, you just lack the moral fiber to actually come right out and say so.

Do you know what you're saying, do you hear yourself? We're upset about the war because the poor are getting a chance to better themselves? That's the most ridiculous allegation I've ever heard. Truly, you can't believe that of anybody here.

I'm sorry, but that's just the oddest, out-of-left-field thing I've ever heard you say, and I've known you a long time. What are you <i>talking</i> about?

Fittisize
Oh yes, Michael Moore, a shameless multi-millionaire, has any moral basis on which to preach about the plight of the poor. Right. He cares so much, in between counting his stacks of money and his bi-annual groomings.

I hate limousine liberals. Why doesn't Baconfuck, instead of wasting millions making his subversive propaganda, donate that money to the poor?
Haha, yeah man, totally. I mean, if I were a multi-millionaire as a result of the movies I tirelessly made and the books that I wrote, I'd feel real guilty about the position I'm in, because others are living in poverty.

Yeesh, it's not Michael Moore's goal to donate his hard-earned cash to those in need. He uses his money to make more films and to write more books in hopes that more people will see things the way he does. You make it sound like Moore is a bad guy for having a lot of money. Analyzing the situation that the poor are in compared to giving money to the poor are two totally different things.

Ryan
Do you know what you're saying, do you hear yourself? We're upset about the war because the poor are getting a chance to better themselves? That's the most ridiculous allegation I've ever heard. Truly, you can't believe that of anybody here.

I'm sorry, but that's just the oddest, out-of-left-field thing I've ever heard you say, and I've known you a long time. What are you talking about?
That wasn't in response to anyone's opinion on the war, it was a response to ABF stating that poor people are being taken advantage of by the military, when in fact that is probably the most successful out a poor person has. Perhaps using quotes would've helped. :)

Haha, yeah man, totally. I mean, if I were a multi-millionaire as a result of the movies I tirelessly made and the books that I wrote, I'd feel real guilty about the position I'm in, because others are living in poverty.

Yeesh, it's not Michael Moore's goal to donate his hard-earned cash to those in need. He uses his money to make more films and to write more books in hopes that more people will see things the way he does. You make it sound like Moore is a bad guy for having a lot of money. Analyzing the situation that the poor are in compared to giving money to the poor are two totally different things.
I don't make him out to be a bad guy for not donating every penny he has. I make him out to be a hypocrite because he spends millions of dollars making propaganda movies, and one of the themes is making the average American feel guilt and pity for the poor (which is of course, the fault of the rich), which should not be preached by a big, morbidly obese, and filthy rich white man who lives in a luxurious multi-million dollar apartment in Manhattan.

There's nothing wrong with making movies and living in lucury... unless one of the major reasons you make movies and live in luxury is to demonize others who do.

alien space marine
ASM, I'd expect it to be in art house movie theaters -- not major chains, but small theaters that show documentaries, foreign films, etc. In this state for instance the three places showing it are all not chains, but small theaters that show limited-run films...

Famous players had Fahrenheit 9/11 advertised on their site, I bet only Toronto Famous players has it.

As for these other theatres Ive only lived in my
city for less then a year now , Its huge and Ottawa is even bigger with ,I dont know were these threatres are located and I dont feel like chasing across literaly two major cities to find it,I always went to the closest movie threatre to me.

But I will have a look at were Neo's freind went.Its possible the movie isnt showed everyday.

I thought Cineplex went bankrupt? I guess not, All the cineplex threatres here closed down.

I don't make him out to be a bad guy for not donating every penny he has. I make him out to be a hypocrite because he spends millions of dollars making propaganda movies, and one of the themes is making the average American feel guilt and pity for the poor (which is of course, the fault of the rich), which should not be preached by a big, morbidly obese, and filthy rich white man who lives in a luxurious multi-million dollar apartment in Manhattan.

Fahrenheit 9/11 was a propaganda movie, But Bowling for Columbine and Rodger and me were very neutral movies.He was not judging anyone and just making people think about their lives and society. Infact Moore was very critical of president clinton in Bowling for Columbine he even suggested the violence by Teenagers was also influeinced by the politicians and the wars they were involved in.His point was that how can you blaim Marilyn Manson and video games for teen violence when the president is going out ordering bombings and covert opps missions himself?

Weltall get your head out of the sand, See Bowling for Columbine or Rodger and Me. Your opinion on Moore will change once you see he is not some schmuck left winger taking a crap on the right wing,You will see that Moore has some Moderate elements to him.

Come to me afterwards and then judge him once you see his work and not judge him by the media buzz or garbage.

I hope Micheal Moore donates atleast half of the money to charity or the poor! Maybe he planed too or already has?

Moore worked his ass off which is alot for a man that fat, Why not buy himself a nice home and car?

As for him being Fat? Maybe he should watch a documentory called supersize me. Next time why not make a movie on Fat and obesity himself!

Dark Lord Neo
Famous players had Fahrenheit 9/11 advertised on their site, I bet only Toronto Famous players has it.

As for these other theatres Ive only lived in my
city for less then a year now , Its huge and Ottawa is even bigger with ,I dont know were these threatres are located and I dont feel like chasing across literaly two major cities to find it,I always went to the closest movie threatre to me.

But I will have a look at were Neo's freind went.Its possible the movie isnt showed everyday.

I thought Cineplex went bankrupt? I guess not, All the cineplex threatres here closed down.

My cousin went to one of the alternative movie theaters in Ottawa. Maybe look in the yellow pages and find theaters that aren't major chains and call them.
It's also playing in most major theaters in Canada, since the Canadian distribution is being done by Alliance Atlantis, which owns a stake in famouse players, and is a major film distribution company, while in the US it's being distributed by a smaller group

Dark Jaguar
Um, what? All the theaters here are playing it, and I think they are major chains (though I really can't tell if something is a major chain or just a really expensive local thing, because I do NOT know theater brand names, nor do I want to). Granted, in each and every one, it's just one of the screens that's playing it, but it's THERE.

Honestly, I can't see watching something like this, with political opinions, among strangers. I can't just start up a conversation with total strangers, and honestly it just feels embaressing to be in such a situation among strangers, like when someone you know suddenly gets into a huge idiotic debate with someone in public and you just want to get out of there.

alien space marine
My local theatre is now showing it ! :)

EdenMaster
My local theater is owned my Cinemark, and it's had 9/11 since opening day.

EdenMaster
Huh, I thought this debate would last longer. Perhaps a poll...

Baconfuck or Shoes?

:D

alien space marine
Did you know Micheal Moore directed Canadian Bacon with John Candy?

Great Rumbler
I wear bacon on my feet...when I'm sad.

alien space marine
Do you lick your feet too?

:drunk:

Great Rumbler
Do you lick your feet too?

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No.

alien space marine
Just saw fahrenheit 9/11 !

Two thumbs up!

A few exaderations, But compared to bowling for columbine it was a hell of alot more accurate.

Sacred Jellybean
As long as exaderations are kept to a minimum, I'll be seeing this too. I enjoy some of Michael Moore's political commentary, but I have to constantly remind myself to take it with a grain of salt.

EdenMaster
Sure, there are exaggerations but not huge ones, and if I were you I'd take a whole saltshaker. His points are strong, but only half of the picture. Something appalling that he says can sometimes be put into perspective or justified with only one small detail he may conveniently omit.

alien space marine
I actually learned alot of things I didnt know about and reheard alot of things I already knew.

What I did learn was that the big Fox executive was Bush 1st Cousin,All the channels in the 2000 election reported that Al gore had won in florida but for some reason Fox said George Bush was winning before any recount had happend or shall we say many votes were officially disqualified by govenor Jeph Bush that imediately turned the election in his brothers favor.If it waisnt for the fact Bush Brother was govenor of florida and his decision effected the election you wouldnt have this kind of suspicion and contriversy or atleast not as much.

Bush early presidency was in the hole till 9/11, His car was egged and had shit tossed at it when they were heading for his inaguration ceremony, He was sopposed to march to the white house on foot as part of the traditional inaguration but it was called off for safety concerns since the place was surounded by angry pissed protesters upset about the election fiasco.

Dark Jaguar
I do think one thing, the title makes no sense... at all. If I see it, they better not play some song no one has EVER heard before talking about temperature.

alien space marine
Nope!

All rock music!

Great Rumbler
I do think one thing, the title makes no sense... at all. If I see it, they better not play some song no one has EVER heard before talking about temperature.

It's a slight variation of the name of a popular sci-fi book [Fahrenheit 451], which was about the supression of freedom of thought [government burned all the books].

alien space marine
To be quite honnest, Micheal Moore intentionally used "Fahreheit".He knew what he was doing using that name probaily could keep it on a technicallity.

Dark Lord Neo
To be quite honnest, Micheal Moore intentionally used "Fahreheit".He knew what he was doing using that name probaily could keep it on a technicallity.
What are you talking about?

Dark Jaguar
I think he's talking about the thing GR mentioned, but in a stupid way. I GET it, we already figured that OUT, that he did it on purpose! Yeesh... And of COURSE he could use it, no technicalities needed! You can't copyright single words, EVER!

Great Rumbler
You can't copyright single words, EVER!

You probably can, but not common, everyday words like that. It'd have to be something weird that you made up.

EdenMaster
Like Dukerrific and Duketastrophe!

Donald Trump tried to copyright the words "You're Fired" after The Apprentice did so well. I don't know if he did or not, but if anyone can, it's probably him.

Dark Jaguar
He didn't. Common phrases that precede some copyrighted work can't be copyrighted either. I also have to wonder if that's even true, what you just said, about him trying to. Sounds kinda mythy...

Oh and yes, that's right, if you make up a word right there, you can copyright it. I was talking about single already existing words.

It's all right here in this pamphlet.

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

A Black Falcon
That wasn't in response to anyone's opinion on the war, it was a response to ABF stating that poor people are being taken advantage of by the military, when in fact that is probably the most successful out a poor person has. Perhaps using quotes would've helped.

That's exactly Michael Moore's point in the later part of this movie! The military is the best option a lot of poor people have. As he says right at the end, these people go into the military for the opportunities it gives and fight for our country and all they expect of the rest of us is for us to only send them to war if there is a really good reason. THAT is is point about the poor -- that this is not anywhere near a good enough reason. He doesn't say that they shouldn't join the army... it's too bad, but I know that for some that's the best chance they've got to get an education. And we shouldn't send them off to get shot unless there's a very good reason.

I hate limousine liberals. Why doesn't Baconfuck, instead of wasting millions making his subversive propaganda, donate that money to the poor?

As Fittisize said, he's spending it better. Sure, he could help a few people. Or he could make movies and books and spread his message and potentially help ALL the poor people in the country and, as an indirect result, people in other countries as well. He can do that second way well, so it's not even remotely a waste of his money. And what's wrong with some rich people feeling that way? So when someone gets rich they should instantly change their views to the most self-serving kind possible? I'd certainly hope not! Oh no, a rich person wants to do things that would help poor people! The horror! Why should money change his personal views? That'd be very shallow...

alien space marine
Another point is that alot of the people who sign up is not because of some patriotic act, But just so then can get college funds ect..Alot never expected to be deployed,Like Moore also said some areas are so poor the military is the only job there that pays anything.

Another point the Senators signed to go to war, But of all of them only one even has a son serving in iraq. What he is trying to say is if your willing to send the lives of young people you probaily never met to die in a war, Why are you not willing to send your own children?Same goes with the rich elite.

Dark Lord Neo
I'm going to see it tommorow

nickdaddyg
I'm all with Weltall. I refuse to see Fahrenheit 9/11. It's just propaganda bullshit, from only his point of view.

P.S. I'm an extreme Republican, and nothing annoys be more than liberals.

(Actually, lots of ppl blame me for extreme right-wing ideology. Wait some of those guys were you, about our old Hitler debates. Remember those? Those were the good ol' days.) But anyway, yeah, I'm a fascist...

Great Rumbler
I still haven't seen and I don't really plan on seeing it anytime soon.

Here's something for everyone who thought Fahrenheit 911 was completely factual/honest movie. (http://www.davekopel.org/Terror/Fiftysix-Deceits-in-Fahrenheit-911.htm)

Fittisize
But anyway, yeah, I'm a fascist...
Great. We've got two fascists on our board now.

Dark Jaguar
That movie isn't helping anyone at all, and it's delusional to think it is. Not a single person changed their mind about anything. People who loved it already agreed, people who hated it already disagreed. It didn't change anyone's views. Thus, it didn't help anyone. That's the only way entertainment CAN ever help anyone after all, by changing their views.

About people signing up JUST for the money anc complaining when they get deployed. I have no sympathy. They knew the risks, and deserve anything that happens as a result. If they really, truly believed that they would NOT be sent out and that was their right to not be sent out when they signed up, they are idiots. Honestly, how does anyone go through even basic training and still lack enough common sense to realize their lives are now at the beck and call of the military? They DID IT TO THEMSELVES, so wet willy for you!

A Black Falcon
I don't think that is true. It has made some people on the fence think. Yes, most people have chosen a side already, but there are some people undecided and even if it only influenced a few of them into questioning the Bush administration, that's great... but I am sure that few undecided people would leave that film feeling exactly the same as when they entered.

EdenMaster
beck and call

That would be "beckon call", DJ :D.

*smart*

*leaves*

OB1
*claps*

Great Rumbler
*golf clap*

OB1
*bows*

Dark Jaguar
beck1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (bk)
n.
A gesture of beckoning or summons.

Idiom:
at (someone's) beck and call
Ready to comply with any wish or command

So yes, beck is a right way to say it.

Plus, "beckon call" sounds very engrish. That's like saying "I'm going to arrest capture you!", it's the kind of redundant you only hear from sweeds.

No, beck and call is the way I've always heard it.

A Black Falcon
Of course it's 'beck and call'... wait, was GR being serious that he thought it was different? I thought it was some kind of joke I didn't get...

Dark Jaguar
...Looking at it, either EM and GR are BOTH equally stupid about it, or this is some movie/game/book quote that neither of us are familiar with.

Great Rumbler
"Beck and call" is always what I've heard. I just think golf claps are funny.

A Black Falcon
Golf claps?

Great Rumbler
*sigh* When the crowd at a golf game claps. That's a golf clap.

A Black Falcon
As in quietly?

Great Rumbler
Yeah, it's a subdued and mostly unenthusiastic applause.

OB1
*golf claps at ABF for being so dumb*

Great Rumbler
*golf clap*

A Black Falcon
Well it's not like I watch much golf...

Great Rumbler
Well, it's not like you have to.

bountyhunter
Tell you what, what we should do is swap our leaders, john howard can take over america for a while and bush can take over australia for a while, the economy will rise, green house imissions will lower, international relations will improve and there will be peace because howard will be too nice to want to wage any wars.. while we get stuck with a guy who has the mental capacity of a sack of hammers.. but he can't screw our economy up that much and howard will just fix it when he gets back any way, and we don't have the millitary capacity to take over an island in the tropics, hell even an un inhabited one we couldn't take over, in fact, were it the smallest island in the tropic/behuma's what ever, un-inhabited and devoide of all life, we would probobly surrender.

On another note, bush would be with people who can understand him when he talks slow and misses words/parts of words, be abreiviate almost every thing we say.