View Thread : "So what if it sold horribly? It was a darn good game, so we're making sequels!!"


Great Rumbler
In a recent interview Ubisoft confirmed that there will be another two Beyond Good & Evil games, making the series into a trilogy.

Apparently the ending for the first game was left rather ambiguous because they had planned on carrying on the story, good news for all Beyond Good & Evil fans.

I can't believe at didn't sell very well, it was a very original game and it was crazy-fun! It's good to know that they're making more anyway.

Cube-Europe (http://www.cube-europe.com/news.php?nid=6795)

OB1
I got really excited about this before I read the source interview (which does not say anything about Ubi Soft making another BG&E), and realized that's it from Cube-Europe.

Damn Cube-Europe for getting my hopes up. :(

A Black Falcon
Yeah, Cube-Europe isn't exactly the most trustworthy news source, for sure...

Though, they should make a sequel. Hopefully they can fix the things that were wrong with the first game. :) BG&E has a lot of promise, but wasn't quite there...

edit: Dojo is saying it too.

http://www.nintendojo.com/infocus/view_item.php?1091126082

Ah, here we go... the source. In French, unfortunately... but it looks like an interview with Ancel. I wonder when we'll get a translation somewhere... :)

http://www.oteragame.fr/dossier.php?dossier_id=15

EdenMaster
I just bought this game today, I haven't even started it up yet, I intend to later. I've heard it's a really good game and I kept meaning to get it but it's a bit tough to find. I managed to get the last copy at my GameStop. :D

A Black Falcon
I'm interested if people think it's as stellar as OB1 does or as a great game which doesn't quite deserve all of the accolades it has gotten like I do...

edit: Yeah, this looks more likely (BG&E). Click.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/534/534566p1.html

A Black Falcon
This looks like what happened. Unsurprising, given Cube-Europe...

But I'd still like to see that interview in English. :)



RUMOR #4: Ubisoft is making two more Beyond and Good and Evil games.

Source: The devout flock of Mario worshippers at GameCube Europe.

The official story: "No comment." --Ubisoft rep.

What we heard: When Beyond Good and Evil was released last year, it got solid reviews, but was discounted to just $19.99 within months due to disappointing sales. So when GameCube Europe reported that "Ubisoft does not plan on letting Beyond Good and Evil fade away and has announced there will be another two games," many reacted with skepticism. Rightly so, as it turns out. Though GameCube Europe story makes it sound like it was taken from an official Ubisoft statement, it lists a Q&A with BG&E designer Michel Ancel on the French site OteraGame as its source. In said Q&A, Ancel discussed the abruptness of BG&E's ending, saying it was because the game was "the first episode of a trilogy." He made no mention of any concrete plans to make a sequel to the game, let alone two. Any further ambiguity was dispelled by informed sources who told GameSpot that no BG&E games are currently in Ubisoft's pipeline. "Sounds like wishful thinking on the fans' part," they said.

Bogus or not bogus?: C'est bogus.

How about another rumor? The N5 Gyro Controller!

http://www.n-sider.com/articleview.php?articleid=330&page=2

OB1
Yeah this is definitely BS. Too bad, too, since it was one of the best games of last year.

Don't listen to ABF, Edenmaster. You know how bad his taste is. Loves crap like Cruisin' and Rush, dislikes great games like GT and BG&E. And most reviewers agree that it's an awesome game: http://gamerankings.com/itemrankings/itemsearch.asp

A Black Falcon
Gran Turismo? I've played it for five minuites at most so of course I won't say what I think of it. All I can say is that I generally don't like more realistic racing games like that as much as I do more arcadish ones.

Rush, yes I think is awesome. So do plenty of other people. It is a very popular series...

As for Cruis'n, I REALLY think I've discussed those games enough. You clearly do not care about being accurate.

Many of the things I've mentioned about this game showed up in multiple reviews that I read. It's not just me... you'd love to pretend that it is, but it won't work because it's not. Sorry.

Average scores in the mid 80s isn't a problem-free title, OB1! 84% average for PC, 87-88 for consoles.

http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/561436.asp?q=beyond%20good%20%20evil
http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/561646.asp?q=beyond%20good%20%20evil
http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/561645.asp?q=beyond%20good%20%20evil
http://gamerankings.com/htmlpages2/561647.asp?q=beyond%20good%20%20evil

If I remember correctly, when we argued about this before your defence was more about how none of my complaints mattered than it was about how they were actually wrong... would you like me to go over the list again?

I didn't finish the game, but not because it's too hard. I didn't finish because I got tired of how simplistic the story is, mostly... as well as a few other things, but that's the big one, and key in a game like this which is so much about story.

OB1
Of course it's not a problem-free game, only one or two games ever made are problem-free. But it is of the finest titles of last year, and most of your complaints are ridiculous considering your crappy taste in games. You call the gameplay simple, yet you like shit like Cruisin' and Gauntlet. You call the story simple (despite how incredibly well-executed it is), yet you enjoy the generic stories of so many PC games. You're not consistent with your views.

Great Rumbler
Curse you, Cube-Europe! I got my hopes up for nothing!!

A Black Falcon
BG&E is of course a lot better than Cruis'n. Gauntlet? Hmm... that's tough. Gauntlet is more pure fun, but BG&E tries to do a lot more... that is harder.

And you only can think that PC RPG stories are simple if you either have the worst luck with finding good games or have no concept of not having stories always spoon-fed to you... but we're talking about this on MSN. I'm quite interested in what other people here think about the subject but it'd be hard to explain...

In short, I think that it is good for a story to be complex in its presentation to the user. Metroid Prime has a great story, and the fact that you have to look for it to find it does not in the least hurt it. It has a lot of depth, that could not be shown in any form other than text, and the way it slowly reveals things to you and you slowly begin to understand the full picture of the game's story is a great storytelling method that keeps up interest in people who care and lets people who don't just ignore it. I think it was a much better way of telling that story than having to cut out a large portion of it and putting it in as a linear game story that gets told to you one chunk at a time as you progress (with cutscenes or something). Yes, you have to actively look for story objects to get the story, but it isn't hard to do and it allowed for so much more story depth than they otherwise could have told...

OB1 thinks it has an awful story, but that's okay because they weren't trying to tell a good story anyway... you shouldn't randomly tell facts out of order in little bits. Bad storytelling method (but I'm sure you can explain it better OB1...).

EdenMaster
I'm about an hour and a half into BG&E and I must say I'm having a great time with it. It's refreshing to play a game with more to it than run, climb, and fight. The puzzles, thus far, are pretty straightforward, but the voice acting and lip syncing are good, and the graphics are very smooth and detailed. I'm trying to get over the Telemundo dude that holds my stuff, and the rastafarian rhinos, but other than that, I'm enjoying this game very much.

A Black Falcon
The graphics are very nice, the artwork is great (of coursez -- it IS French, after all... :)), and yes, it isn't just a standard platformer. Or action-adventure. It's also fun. :)

Oh, why don't I just list the flaws I think are in the game again.

Simplistic combat -- it's not awful, but it is quite easy and there is a lot of it for that level of simplicity. But it's entertaining so this is not a big problem. The dungeons are fun most of the time. But I wish that the combat was both more complex and more challenging. Either, or preferably both. There have been just a couple of times when it's actually been a challenge and those have been some of the more fun parts of the game... I wish more enemies were tough. Sadly few seem to be. It's definitely a missed opportunity. Like with all of these.

Simple story. Big issue, IMO. It seems to just not be like a real world. In a real world, no totalitarian government would ever allow the kinds of shows of opposition and resistance that this one seems to ignore! The protesters seem a nice touch, but they seem to just leave them there... even if they round them up later in the story, it should be the way it would be in reality. Crushed as soon as possible. On a similar note, the resistance. It seems absurdly easy to get in to... I'd think that the network would be riddled with enemy informants with that kind of 'security'! And a link to the very top of the network right in this cell? Huh? That breaks every law of resistance movements I've ever heard of... it just is too simplistic. Oh, it's not a terrible story, but it's not deep or complex. It is exactly what it seems from the start: about evil people trying to take over this planet using nefarious means. I haven't had any plot 'twists' yet that I didn't see coming miles away, that's for sure... From a game built around its story I'd expect more than this game has to offer.

On a similar note, the stealth gameplay. Yes, I know that this cannot be Theif. But I think that having the guards just do one blast of that gun and then turning around and leaving is such bad design... no human would do that! I wish it was more like a real stealth game... if you get seen alarms go off and it gets harder to progress, you can be followed by badguys, make the levels a bit less linear (as it is it's really 'rooms that are puzzles', not stealth -- the stealth areas are just types of puzzle rooms, not true stealth gameplay, I'd say.

And finally (continuing from the first on this list), difficulty. Or the near-total lack of it. As I said when we first discussed this game, I really think that the death system was made FAR too lenient. When you die you start just before the room you were at. With one healthbar full (which can be a HUGE gift sometimes). This means that there is virtually no death penalty worth mentioning... you just have to retry the room until you get it right. No continues, no chance of failing the dungeon and having to restart it unless you quit, and no redoing of ANYTHING beyond the very room you are in. It's too easy. I honestly wish that the continue points were spread out... maybe the places where you save? Yes, it'd make it harder and more frusterating at times, but with a challenge level like this game it's needed... or make the 'continue at room you are at' thing a option in the option menu. That'd work too. :)

Score? I'd probably give it about what the PC sites were scoring it... 84 or so. As in knocking off a few points because of the shoddiness of the PC port (compared to the 87-88s that the console versions got on average). Hmm... actually, maybe 82%. Or 84. They're pretty similar really... :)

Great Rumbler
On a similar note, the stealth gameplay. Yes, I know that this cannot be Theif. But I think that having the guards just do one blast of that gun and then turning around and leaving is such bad design... no human would do that! I wish it was more like a real stealth game... if you get seen alarms go off and it gets harder to progress, you can be followed by badguys, make the levels a bit less linear (as it is it's really 'rooms that are puzzles', not stealth -- the stealth areas are just types of puzzle rooms, not true stealth gameplay, I'd say.

If they did that I'd never be able to beat it!! I get caught all the time, though I think that might be because I don't really try that hard to be stealth, but still...

Simplistic combat -- it's not awful, but it is quite easy and there is a lot of it for that level of simplicity. But it's entertaining so this is not a big problem. The dungeons are fun most of the time. But I wish that the combat was both more complex and more challenging. Either, or preferably both. There have been just a couple of times when it's actually been a challenge and those have been some of the more fun parts of the game... I wish more enemies were tough. Sadly few seem to be. It's definitely a missed opportunity. Like with all of these.

The battle system isn't supposed to be complex because you're supposed to use stealth to get from place to place.

A Black Falcon
If they did that I'd never be able to beat it!! I get caught all the time, though I think that might be because I don't really try that hard to be stealth, but still...

All the time? But all you do is run, hide in the nearby conviently located hiding spot (like in the factory all of those conviently placed pipes that just curve around a corner), wait until the guy fires that security grid at the wall, and try again... not hard. :)

The battle system isn't supposed to be complex because you're supposed to use stealth to get from place to place.

True, but there is a bunch of combat for a "stealth" game and the workings of a nice combat system (though as I said it could use a bit more depth), so it's too bad that it wasn't worked on more. And you do have to do a bunch of fighting.

OB1
BG&E is of course a lot better than Cruis'n. Gauntlet? Hmm... that's tough. Gauntlet is more pure fun, but BG&E tries to do a lot more... that is harder.
And there you have it, folks. ABF is now certifiably insane. He prefers complete and utter shit like Gauntlet over a terrific title like BG&E. I really don't think anything else needs to be said on this matter.
And you only can think that PC RPG stories are simple if you either have the worst luck with finding good games or have no concept of not having stories always spoon-fed to you... but we're talking about this on MSN. I'm quite interested in what other people here think about the subject but it'd be hard to explain...

In short, I think that it is good for a story to be complex in its presentation to the user. Metroid Prime has a great story, and the fact that you have to look for it to find it does not in the least hurt it. It has a lot of depth, that could not be shown in any form other than text, and the way it slowly reveals things to you and you slowly begin to understand the full picture of the game's story is a great storytelling method that keeps up interest in people who care and lets people who don't just ignore it. I think it was a much better way of telling that story than having to cut out a large portion of it and putting it in as a linear game story that gets told to you one chunk at a time as you progress (with cutscenes or something). Yes, you have to actively look for story objects to get the story, but it isn't hard to do and it allowed for so much more story depth than they otherwise could have told...

OB1 thinks it has an awful story, but that's okay because they weren't trying to tell a good story anyway... you shouldn't randomly tell facts out of order in little bits. Bad storytelling method (but I'm sure you can explain it better OB1...).
*sigh*
You act as if being "spoon-fed" a story is a bad thing. It's what us humans call story-telling, ABF. You won't believe how it works! Get this: Good story-telling is usually told in some way, be it verbally, through text, through a movie, etc. Presentation, pacing, and composition are three very important parts of story-telling. Without these three things, even the best concepts can fall flat and become bad stories. With books and movies, people have had plenty of time to perfect methods of story-telling, while with games the only real success in solid story-telling has been when the stories were presented like movies, the closest visual medium to video games. And while it is effective, video games as an art form have a long way to go and will be probably be a while before a method of story-telling unique to video games becomes the standard. A bunch of text in random order--no matter what it amounts to when you put it all together--is most certainly not good and effective story-telling. In fact it's not really story-telling at all. You can get a story that way, and it can work for what the developers were trying to do (as in the case with Prime), but it's definitely not telling a story well. You don't play Prime for the story. You play Silent Hill or Grim Fandango for the story.

A Black Falcon
And there you have it, folks. ABF is now certifiably insane. He prefers complete and utter shit like Gauntlet over a terrific title like BG&E. I really don't think anything else needs to be said on this matter.

Yup, that's exactly what I said, uh huh! ... oh wait, it isn't! I said it was close. BG&E is probably a bit better. And you can insult Gauntlet Legends/Dark Legacy all you want but they are still quite good games. From what I've seen (of people's opinions of the games), it seems like what they are are love or hate games. As in, you either love them or hate them, without a whole lot of middle ground... that does NOT make them bad games. It makes them games designed to be a specific thing that some people like and others don't. Like... oh, a whole lot of games... :) What you can say is that you think they're too simplistic. Okay, fine. You think that. I think that they are simple, but really fun... it's a difference of opinion and because yours is that it doesn't make the games terrible. (not so) sorry.

*sigh*
You act as if being "spoon-fed" a story is a bad thing. It's what us humans call story-telling, ABF. You won't believe how it works! Get this: Good story-telling is usually told in some way, be it verbally, through text, through a movie, etc. Presentation, pacing, and composition are three very important parts of story-telling. Without these three things, even the best concepts can fall flat and become bad stories. With books and movies, people have had plenty of time to perfect methods of story-telling, while with games the only real success in solid story-telling has been when the stories were presented like movies, the closest visual medium to video games. And while it is effective, video games as an art form have a long way to go and will be probably be a while before a method of story-telling unique to video games becomes the standard. A bunch of text in random order--no matter what it amounts to when you put it all together--is most certainly not good and effective story-telling. In fact it's not really story-telling at all. You can get a story that way, and it can work for what the developers were trying to do (as in the case with Prime), but it's definitely not telling a story well. You don't play Prime for the story. You play Silent Hill or Grim Fandango for the story.

No, it's not always a bad thing, I agree with you there. What I really meant was that while in many cases it is fine and works great, it's nice to see some games mix it up a bit. I don't want EVERY game that way. Having more inventive storytelling forms in some games is a good thing.

And actually the story is one of the (many) great things about Prime. I'd definitely say that it increased my interest in the game while I was playing... it fleshes out the world in a great fashion and gives all kinds of depth to a game that otherwise would be much simpler. You don't play Prime just for the story, but it's definitely one of the reasons you play.

Oh, and on a similar note (since I saw it yesterday) if you've seen it you must have hated the anime movie Millenium Actress... it goes pretty much against what you said there. :) I thought it was pretty good...

OB1
Yup, that's exactly what I said, uh huh! ... oh wait, it isn't! I said it was close. BG&E is probably a bit better. And you can insult Gauntlet Legends/Dark Legacy all you want but they are still quite good games. From what I've seen (of people's opinions of the games), it seems like what they are are love or hate games. As in, you either love them or hate them, without a whole lot of middle ground... that does NOT make them bad games. It makes them games designed to be a specific thing that some people like and others don't. Like... oh, a whole lot of games... What you can say is that you think they're too simplistic. Okay, fine. You think that. I think that they are simple, but really fun... it's a difference of opinion and because yours is that it doesn't make the games terrible. (not so) sorry.



To even put them close to eacher is a massive insult to BG&E. It's like saying that FDR is just a bit of a better person than Hitler. FDR representing BG&E, in case you didn't get that.

No, it's not always a bad thing, I agree with you there. What I really meant was that while in many cases it is fine and works great, it's nice to see some games mix it up a bit. I don't want EVERY game that way. Having more inventive storytelling forms in some games is a good thing.

And actually the story is one of the (many) great things about Prime. I'd definitely say that it increased my interest in the game while I was playing... it fleshes out the world in a great fashion and gives all kinds of depth to a game that otherwise would be much simpler. You don't play Prime just for the story, but it's definitely one of the reasons you play.
The "story" in Prime is very loose and the bits of information that you get from scanning stuff doesn't amount to good story-telling. It's great background information, but definitely not good story-telling. And it wasn't supposed to be.
Oh, and on a similar note (since I saw it yesterday) if you've seen it you must have hated the anime movie Millenium Actress... it goes pretty much against what you said there. I thought it was pretty good...


Millennium Actress is a superb movie, and how does that go against anything I said? You mean that "randomness" comment? A story can be out of order and random and still be great (like Pulp Fiction), as long as it's still presented well. If Millennium Actress wasn't structured and presented so exceptionally well then it wouldn't have been a good movie.

A Black Falcon
To even put them close to eacher is a massive insult to BG&E. It's like saying that FDR is just a bit of a better person than Hitler. FDR representing BG&E, in case you didn't get that.

I'm glad you took the time to read all of what I said there. And in my opinion you insult Gauntlet massively. It is NOT a terrible game. Far from it. It isn't something everyone would love, but it is far from terrible. The fact that I know others also like Gauntlet reinforces my position. It's not like I'm the only one who likes Gauntlet! Legends/Dark Legacy are pretty popular... that's why Legends got a sequel and that's why Midway is currently working on a new Gauntlet game. :)

Millennium Actress is a superb movie, and how does that go against anything I said? You mean that "randomness" comment? A story can be out of order and random and still be great (like Pulp Fiction), as long as it's still presented well. If Millennium Actress wasn't structured and presented so exceptionally well then it wouldn't have been a good movie.

Yeah, randomness. Given how much you're railed against randomness, I'd think you'd dislike it in movies too...

Uh, presented well? I'd CERTAINLY say that Metroid Prime was presented well! Actually I'd say that I don't think it could have been presented any better. What's so horrible about going and reading things that tell you story in an action game? I don't get it...

Great Rumbler
Dark Legacy got 51 and 59 [Xbox and GC versions] from Game Rankings. Not too high. That's the only Guantlet game they list, btw.

Anyway, Guantlet's a fun arcade style game that you can spend 20-30 minutes playing when you feel like it, but really you just can't compare it to a game like BG&E. They're just way too different.

OB1
I'm glad you took the time to read all of what I said there. And in my opinion you insult Gauntlet massively. It is NOT a terrible game. Far from it. It isn't something everyone would love, but it is far from terrible. The fact that I know others also like Gauntlet reinforces my position. It's not like I'm the only one who likes Gauntlet! Legends/Dark Legacy are pretty popular... that's why Legends got a sequel and that's why Midway is currently working on a new Gauntlet game.



... Wait a second now...

So because you know "others" that like Gauntlet and Midway is developing a new Gauntlet game means that it's a quality series? If those two things are enough to make a game good then every game ever made is AWESOME.

Yeah, randomness. Given how much you're railed against randomness, I'd think you'd dislike it in movies too...
There's a difference between randomness for a reason and just plan randomness.
Uh, presented well? I'd CERTAINLY say that Metroid Prime was presented well! Actually I'd say that I don't think it could have been presented any better. What's so horrible about going and reading things that tell you story in an action game? I don't get it...


The STORY wasn't presented well, THE STORY. *slaps ABF across his stupid face* The game itself has superb presentation, but the story is barely presented at all. It's the complete opposite of presentation, actually. It's just there for you to find, and does not affect the game whatsoever (aside from the actual act of scanning for getting a higher percentage). It's like the background stuff you read in the manuals of NES games to get why Mr White created Mega Man. Stuff like that. Neat to know, but not what you'd call great story-telling.

A Black Falcon
... Wait a second now...

So because you know "others" that like Gauntlet and Midway is developing a new Gauntlet game means that it's a quality series? If those two things are enough to make a game good then every game ever made is AWESOME.

Midway is somewhat under-rated. They aren't so awful. Well some of their games are, but most everyone publishes bad games... and they make some pretty good ones too. :)

And you know you're being absurd here. So because me and several people I know (I don't say it's a great multiplayer game for no reason you know!) like Gauntlet it's bad because you say so? Umm... I don't think so! You don't like it, fine. I don't like Grand Prix Legends. But I would never say it's a bad game. You shouldn't either. But you do, of course, for a lot of games, so I should never expect you to become a sensible person who considers all the facts before branding a game as bad. Too bad. :(

I mean, you call Doom awful as well, and that's one of the most critically acclaimed and highest rated PC games of all time...

The STORY wasn't presented well, THE STORY. *slaps ABF across his stupid face* The game itself has superb presentation, but the story is barely presented at all. It's the complete opposite of presentation, actually. It's just there for you to find, and does not affect the game whatsoever (aside from the actual act of scanning for getting a higher percentage). It's like the background stuff you read in the manuals of NES games to get why Mr White created Mega Man. Stuff like that. Neat to know, but not what you'd call great story-telling.

The story is presented great if you want to look for it and not presented if you don't care. I don't see the problem here. How in the world could they have presented it better, or even differently, and had one quarter that amount of story depth in an action game? I don't think they could have! And comparing it to a Mega Man story... so dumb... one block of story text has more depth than any Mega Man game, including the manuals.

On that note, I like it when manuals have story in them... helps explain games better. A manual that just tells you how to play is compartively boring. Manuals that tell story that's not in the game? Do you dislike that too? :rolleyes:

OB1
Midway is somewhat under-rated. They aren't so awful. Well some of their games are, but most everyone publishes bad games... and they make some pretty good ones too.

And you know you're being absurd here. So because me and several people I know (I don't say it's a great multiplayer game for no reason you know!) like Gauntlet it's bad because you say so? Umm... I don't think so! You don't like it, fine. I don't like Grand Prix Legends. But I would never say it's a bad game. You shouldn't either. But you do, of course, for a lot of games, so I should never expect you to become a sensible person who considers all the facts before branding a game as bad. Too bad.

I mean, you call Doom awful as well, and that's one of the most critically acclaimed and highest rated PC games of all time...

This reminds me of a story I once read, a story about a little boy who thoughts lots of cappy things were really good because some stupid people liked them, and based all of his opinions around this idea. And by all I mean only some of them, and only sometimes. You see, this little boy was a huge hypocrite who sometimes liked to objectively call things bad while at the same time complained when other people did similar things. This little boy didn't really look at things objectively all of the time, just when it suited his arguments. This boy was hated by many, and came to become Hypocrite-Man, defender of the innocent... and defender of the guilty when he decided at that particular moment that defending the innocent would hurt his argument.

I hope you've understood the moral to this story.

The story is presented great if you want to look for it and not presented if you don't care. I don't see the problem here. How in the world could they have presented it better, or even differently, and had one quarter that amount of story depth in an action game? I don't think they could have! And comparing it to a Mega Man story... so dumb... one block of story text has more depth than any Mega Man game, including the manuals.

On that note, I like it when manuals have story in them... helps explain games better. A manual that just tells you how to play is compartively boring. Manuals that tell story that's not in the game? Do you dislike that too?

You're not listening to me, ABF. You've completely ignored all of the time I put into explaining good story-telling to you, everything about presentation, pacing, etc. If you refuse to pay attention to me then I'm just going to start ignoring everything you write as well.

A Black Falcon
Missed this post before... :)

Dark Legacy got 51 and 59 [Xbox and GC versions] from Game Rankings. Not too high. That's the only Guantlet game they list, btw.

Anyway, Guantlet's a fun arcade style game that you can spend 20-30 minutes playing when you feel like it, but really you just can't compare it to a game like BG&E. They're just way too different.

Gauntlet Legends for N64 got a 72.6. It got 73.5 for Dreamcast. As for Dark Legacy, I can see why it would score lower -- it isn't a massive step up and it clearly does not push modern hardware, innovate, or even have all new levels and stuff. But it did get a 67.3 for PS2...

As I've said before I'd rate Gauntlet higher, like in the B to B+ range (though I have entertained thoughts that it deserves an A- before). That's about the same range that I'd put BG&E in, so score-wise, for me I think that that was an appropriate comparison. But you are right, they are very different games and directly comparing them is hard. You are also right that Gauntlet is best in small doses... I usually find myself, when I play it, playing just a couple of levels (considering how long levels take...). It can get a bit tedious after maybe an hour or so. BG&E isn't really like that. But Gauntlet also has a lot more replay value and is definitely a longer game than BG&E... they are different. But you have to try to score them somehow.

This reminds me of a story I once read, a story about a little boy who thoughts lots of cappy things were really good because some stupid people liked them, and based all of his opinions around this idea. And by all I mean only some of them, and only sometimes. You see, this little boy was a huge hypocrite who sometimes liked to objectively call things bad while at the same time complained when other people did similar things. This little boy didn't really look at things objectively all of the time, just when it suited his arguments. This boy was hated by many, and came to become Hypocrite-Man, defender of the innocent... and defender of the guilty when he decided at that particular moment that defending the innocent would hurt his argument.

I hope you've understood the moral to this story.

Standard "OB1 proves how stupid he is" attacks on games OB1 dislikes. The only thing it proves is how closeminded you are about what game quality is. "If I don't like it IT IS TERRIBLE" is a truly idiotic way of telling which games are good, and it is very, very sad that you can't see it. Well, it's sad the 1% of the time that it isn't incredibly annoying... it's the fact that you so absolutely react against anything you dislike with not even a shred of questioning about if anyone else's opinions could possibly have any validity to them that makes people not like you, OB1. :)

You're not listening to me, ABF. You've completely ignored all of the time I put into explaining good story-telling to you, everything about presentation, pacing, etc. If you refuse to pay attention to me then I'm just going to start ignoring everything you write as well.

Well, for one thing you are being kind of confusing about this. I don't fully get your point(s) I guess... How about examples of games that have it the way you like it more... one problem here is that there is so many different kinds of story and how to tell it. Like, as I said, Metroid Prime and Torment can both be called to have nonlinear stories but the forms of that are so different that they have nothing in common. What, specifically, are the problems here?

Remember, this started with the discussion of PC RPGs. You said something about this and I said that that was one of your problems with PC RPGs... not liking to not have the story unmissably pushed at you. Games where it isn't a given that you will learn all of the story are what I was talking about and what I thought you were saying you disliked... like Fallout, Baldur's Gate (to a lesser extent, though -- you will get most of the story in BG I or II. You can choose to miss sidequests, though, which can shed a bit more light on some things... but you won't miss the major plot elements or explanations.), Torment... then I thought of Metroid Prime... hey, I just thought of another. How about Quest for Glory? You can beat that without doing some of the major plot elements! You can leave the major badguy in the game untouched... How about games with multiple endings and stuff? ... see what I mean, I don't really understand what exactly it is you have a problem with here?

OB1
Gauntlet Legends for N64 got a 72.6. It got 73.5 for Dreamcast. As for Dark Legacy, I can see why it would score lower -- it isn't a massive step up and it clearly does not push modern hardware, innovate, or even have all new levels and stuff. But it did get a 67.3 for PS2...

As I've said before I'd rate Gauntlet higher, like in the B to B+ range (though I have entertained thoughts that it deserves an A- before). That's about the same range that I'd put BG&E in, so score-wise, for me I think that that was an appropriate comparison. But you are right, they are very different games and directly comparing them is hard. You are also right that Gauntlet is best in small doses... I usually find myself, when I play it, playing just a couple of levels (considering how long levels take...). It can get a bit tedious after maybe an hour or so. BG&E isn't really like that. But Gauntlet also has a lot more replay value and is definitely a longer game than BG&E... they are different. But you have to try to score them somehow.


Absolutely. All of the Gauntlet games get a "P" for "Poo", and BG&E gets a "W" for "Way better than the shit you like".

Standard "OB1 proves how stupid he is" attacks on games OB1 dislikes. The only thing it proves is how closeminded you are about what game quality is. "If I don't like it IT IS TERRIBLE" is a truly idiotic way of telling which games are good, and it is very, very sad that you can't see it. Well, it's sad the 1% of the time that it isn't incredibly annoying... it's the fact that you so absolutely react against anything you dislike with not even a shred of questioning about if anyone else's opinions could possibly have any validity to them that makes people not like you, OB1.



Dude, did you even read my story? Because it looks like you completely missed the point. BTW, the twist ending is that you are Hypocrite-Man, in case you didn't get that. *GASP SHOCK AWE!!!*

Well, for one thing you are being kind of confusing about this. I don't fully get your point(s) I guess... How about examples of games that have it the way you like it more... one problem here is that there is so many different kinds of story and how to tell it. Like, as I said, Metroid Prime and Torment can both be called to have nonlinear stories but the forms of that are so different that they have nothing in common. What, specifically, are the problems here?

Remember, this started with the discussion of PC RPGs. You said something about this and I said that that was one of your problems with PC RPGs... not liking to not have the story unmissably pushed at you. Games where it isn't a given that you will learn all of the story are what I was talking about and what I thought you were saying you disliked... like Fallout, Baldur's Gate (to a lesser extent, though -- you will get most of the story in BG I or II. You can choose to miss sidequests, though, which can shed a bit more light on some things... but you won't miss the major plot elements or explanations.), Torment... then I thought of Metroid Prime... hey, I just thought of another. How about Quest for Glory? You can beat that without doing some of the major plot elements! You can leave the major badguy in the game untouched... How about games with multiple endings and stuff? ... see what I mean, I don't really understand what exactly it is you have a problem with here?


The problem I have, which I already stated, is that these games do not tell good stories, because they barely even tell them at all! If these games were movies, it would be the equivalent of watching a mindless action movie that has text scrolling across the bottom of the screen telling pieces of a pretty good story. Sure the story would be there, but it would be presented in such a way that nobody in their right mind would consider the movie to be a great piece of storytelling. It's as simple as that. If you STILL don't understand what I'm saying, then you never will and it'd be best for you to just continue being blissfully ignorant.

A Black Falcon
Dude, did you even read my story? Because it looks like you completely missed the point. BTW, the twist ending is that you are Hypocrite-Man, in case you didn't get that. *GASP SHOCK AWE!!!*

Thanks for listening... :rolleyes:

As I said, expecting you to act like a sensible human being is far too much to hope for. 'Rationality? Bah, who needs it...'

It is NOT RATIONAL to say that your opinion is the law! It isn't! But you'll never understand that so I don't know why I bother repeating it...

So, can you come up with OBJECTIVE reasons why Gauntlet is so awful? I'm sure that they will almost all be opinion reasons, not objective ones. Because that's where most of the things that are "wrong" with Gauntlet reside: things that are a matter of pure opinion, with very little objective fact "good or bad" involved.

The problem I have, which I already stated, is that these games do not tell good stories, because they barely even tell them at all! If these games were movies, it would be the equivalent of watching a mindless action movie that has text scrolling across the bottom of the screen telling pieces of a pretty good story. Sure the story would be there, but it would be presented in such a way that nobody in their right mind would consider the movie to be a great piece of storytelling. It's as simple as that. If you STILL don't understand what I'm saying, then you never will and it'd be best for you to just continue being blissfully ignorant.

And I've said that I think you are completely wrong. Do we have anything to discuss on this issue? I don't think it's bad storytelling. Is there a rulebook somewhere that says it is? :rolleyes: Otherwise, I believe that this again falls under opinion. I happen to think it's great.

OB1
Thanks for listening...

As I said, expecting you to act like a sensible human being is far too much to hope for. 'Rationality? Bah, who needs it...'

It is NOT RATIONAL to say that your opinion is the law! It isn't! But you'll never understand that so I don't know why I bother repeating it...

So, can you come up with OBJECTIVE reasons why Gauntlet is so awful? I'm sure that they will almost all be opinion reasons, not objective ones. Because that's where most of the things that are "wrong" with Gauntlet reside: things that are a matter of pure opinion, with very little objective fact "good or bad" involved.



You didn't read the story, did you? There's a reason why the little boy is called HYPOCRITE-MAN. READ THE DAMN STORY!

And I've said that I think you are completely wrong. Do we have anything to discuss on this issue? I don't think it's bad storytelling. Is there a rulebook somewhere that says it is? Otherwise, I believe that this again falls under opinion. I happen to think it's great.


Uh, actually there is a rulebook somewhere that explains what good story-telling is! Hahaha, what an idiot. Rulebooks, school books, courses, etc. Now you may personally enjoy what is generally considered bad story-telling, but that doesn't make it any better.

A Black Falcon
Uh, actually there is a rulebook somewhere that explains what good story-telling is! Hahaha, what an idiot. Rulebooks, school books, courses, etc. Now you may personally enjoy what is generally considered bad story-telling, but that doesn't make it any better.

I'd need a WHOLE lot more than your opinion to be convinced of much of anything and this is certainly no exception. I don't know if I've seen people say such a thing before, so it's interesting that you are acting like your opinion is so obviously the only possible right one...

You didn't read the story, did you? There's a reason why the little boy is called HYPOCRITE-MAN. READ THE DAMN STORY!

Cute, but quite inaccurate and stupid.

OB1
I'd need a WHOLE lot more than your opinion to be convinced of much of anything and this is certainly no exception. I don't know if I've seen people say such a thing before, so it's interesting that you are acting like your opinion is so obviously the only possible right one...



Are you saying that you've never had a literature or creative writing before? Or a film class? There are many books on the subject. A subject that you are obviously very ignorant of.

Cute, but quite inaccurate and stupid.


It's more accurate than anything you've written in your entire life. And that's not hyperbole!

A Black Falcon
Are you saying that you've never had a literature or creative writing before? Or a film class? There are many books on the subject. A subject that you are obviously very ignorant of.

No to creative writing or film. Literature? Umm... yeah, I guess so. If you mean reading stuff and writing reaction papers. :)

English has never been one of my favorite classes... but I think I'm plenty qualified to say what kind of storytelling I liked and what I liked less. Though I'd love to hear the opinions of other people here on this subject too! It'd be great...

It's more accurate than anything you've written in your entire life. And that's not hyperbole!

If you believe that you are a sad, deluded human being.

Great Rumbler
MP has an interesting story [well actually it's probably more accurate to call it a back story since it's mostly events that lead up to the game], but the presentation isn't the best. Having random clips of backstory scattered across the game is no where near as good as having scenes [flashbacks maybe] throughout the game. Like maybe you find hidden video discs or something that you can view that chronicle the history of the Chozen rather than just random paragraphs or there could be scenes that show the past events from the perspective of one of the Chozo. The way MP did it's story ISN'T bad, but there are better ways.

A Black Falcon
But if you did it that way there would be a lot less story and it'd have to be somewhat simpler...

Great Rumbler
I don't see why it'd have to be.

I don't mean that they'd have to take out ALL the text, but they could add some variety to make the presentation better.

A Black Falcon
If you like books, why do you have a problem with a game that primarially tells its story in words? A great many games have done that after all... or is the problem the disorganized order of the story and how it doesn't tell it linearly?

Private Hudson
I skipped most of this because it's kind of boring me but what the hell..

Just thought I'd chime in and say that I kind of liked Metroid Prime's mode of storytelling and think that, if developed appropriately for each individual game, scattering facts and having the player find them in order to advance the story (at there own pace) seems like a perfectly logical and appropriate way of videgames to tell a story.

Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.

Obviously it wouldn't work for all game types, and would have to be tweaked accordingly but.. yeah. I'll let you two keep at it. :)

A Black Falcon
Oni told some story this way, with (optional) consoles that told more story than was told in the game... so do other games, of course. For instance, text adventures? :D Some graphical adventures do this as well... how about the Myst games? Numerous journals, many of which serve no gameplay purpose but are just there to tell the backstory...

Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.

I tried to say this, I think. Games are interactive, so why not have the stories be more interactive than book or movie stories as well? Certainly seems to make sense to me! Yeah, it wouldn't work for everything. But it would for some things. Why should a different medium be constrained by the limits of previous ones?

OB1
No to creative writing or film. Literature? Umm... yeah, I guess so. If you mean reading stuff and writing reaction papers.

English has never been one of my favorite classes... but I think I'm plenty qualified to say what kind of storytelling I liked and what I liked less. Though I'd love to hear the opinions of other people here on this subject too! It'd be great...



Well there you go. It's fine if you like it, but on a more objective level it's definitely not good story-telling.

If you believe that you are a sad, deluded human being.


Again with the witty retorts. :whatever:

MP has an interesting story [well actually it's probably more accurate to call it a back story since it's mostly events that lead up to the game], but the presentation isn't the best. Having random clips of backstory scattered across the game is no where near as good as having scenes [flashbacks maybe] throughout the game. Like maybe you find hidden video discs or something that you can view that chronicle the history of the Chozen rather than just random paragraphs or there could be scenes that show the past events from the perspective of one of the Chozo. The way MP did it's story ISN'T bad, but there are better ways.


Well said. If Retro had wanted to tell a good story then they would have found ways to do it, but as it is they weren't trying to be Metal Gear Solid with Metroid Prime. They did say that they were going to try and tell a good story with MP2, though. If they had the cinematic presentation of Zero Mission coupled with the substance in their stories, it could make for one awesome, well-presented plot.

Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.



Yes, I definitely agree with that. As I stated before, developers have not yet figured out an ideal and unique way of telling good stories in video games, it's still in the experimental stages. Right now the best game stories are usually the ones that rely on cinematics, something I don't quite agree with but can't really think of a better solution yet. To really tell a good story and take advantage of the unique qualities of video games, you would have to make the player feel like they are taking a part of the story and actually affecting its outcome. Some games do that to a certain extent, games like Deus Ex. The problem is in that series the story unfolds completely through emotionless conversations and text. The story lacks emotion, as do the bits of text you pick up in Metroid Prime and those other games ABF mentioned. Video games are a visual medium and as such need to effectively use visuals when telling a story. If I had to choose two games that tell stories most effectively, I'd choose Silent Hill (series) and ICO. In both games, you're given enough information through a few cinematics to basically form a story in your head while you're playing them, and while neither is very complex, they tell their stories very effectively through visuals and atmosphere. ICO has a very classic Brothers Grimm-type story that you don't even need any dialogue to know what's going on (and you don't understand a thing anyone is saying, in the US version at least) because it completely relies on the emotion between the two characters and their situation to really feel for them and make you feel like you're controlling the story (even though you don't).

But anyhow, just plan cinematics ala MGS are not the answer, but neither are boring pieces of text strewn about all over the place.

Sacred Jellybean
Though I'd love to hear the opinions of other people here on this subject too! It'd be great...

IMO, although Metroid Prime had an interesting storyline, I still didn't comprehend all of it. In terms of efficiency, Metroid Prime didn't tell the story well. I'm sure they could have come up with a way to present much more clearly (although considering Nintendo probably stresses gameplay over story-telling, they probably just wanted to release the game as soon as possible and didn't allow enough time to develop the presentation). I've never completed Metroid Prime in one sitting, or even over the span of a week. It's moreso something I like to pick up every once-in-a-while, when I find the spare time. Therefore, I easily forget all those small parts of the storyline that are scattered all throughout the game.

On the other hand, I also agree with this:

Making referrence to a comment OB1 made earlier in the thread, videogames usually need to rely on cinematics to tell a story because movies are the closest visual medium to videogames. The difference being that videogames are interractive, so if videogames are to find storytelling methods that are unique I think making it fully interractive and at the players' discretion be a great step in the right direction.

OB1
Nintendo really isn't against story-telling. Eiji Aonuma (Zelda) and Yoshio Sakamoto (Metroid) believe that story-telling is a very important part of games nowadays, which they proved with their last few titles (Wind Waker, Metroid Fusion, Metroid Zero Mission). It's pretty much just Miyamoto that thinks story is not very important.

A Black Falcon
Again with the witty retorts.

Unlike what you seem to think, you are the only person here who frequently seems to find me annoying, as far as I know, so no, it's not especially accurate. :)

Well said. If Retro had wanted to tell a good story then they would have found ways to do it, but as it is they weren't trying to be Metal Gear Solid with Metroid Prime. They did say that they were going to try and tell a good story with MP2, though. If they had the cinematic presentation of Zero Mission coupled with the substance in their stories, it could make for one awesome, well-presented plot.

But how would they have that much substance? As you say, they don't want this to be like MGS where you spend hours and hours watching cutscenes... any move in that direction might make the story easier to follow, but it'd also almost have to mean that there would be a simpler backstory (though it could mean a more intricate plot ocurring during the game), I'd think.

Nintendo really isn't against story-telling. Eiji Aonuma (Zelda) and Yoshio Sakamoto (Metroid) believe that story-telling is a very important part of games nowadays, which they proved with their last few titles (Wind Waker, Metroid Fusion, Metroid Zero Mission). It's pretty much just Miyamoto that thinks story is not very important.

If that's true, then why do most Nintendo games not try very hard to tell stories?
They're more against it than not, I'd say.

*cut long paragraph* But anyhow, just plan cinematics ala MGS are not the answer, but neither are boring pieces of text strewn about all over the place.

It really depends on the game. Ideally most types of games should have stories... and depth in stories is good, in my opinion. As long as it's interesting I don't mind at all having more to read. I doubt you're saying that books lack emotion (obviously false), so are you saying that the way it was written wasn't good enough? Hmm... I don't know. It seemed (in the history sections) like it was trying to explain what happened... emotion? Sure there is some. Not as much as some games, probably, though. But the story it tells is good. I loved the whole scan visor aspect of the game... a lot of the things it tells you are, imo, definitely worth the time it takes to scan everything. :) ... but that might be an aspect of liking adventure games, I think it helps when you can get textual (or voice) descriptions of objects or events... Eternal Darkness, for instance. The text descriptions of objects and stuff was one of my favorite aspects of that game.

And for 'telling a great story' you know which game I'll mention again, but I doubt that that'll make anyone here go and try to find it, so what's the point... :(

I'll just do this.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/review/24697.html
http://www.gamerankings.com/htmlpages4/187975.asp

Great Rumbler
If you like books, why do you have a problem with a game that primarially tells its story in words?

Yes, it's true I do like books [fantasy mostly]but I'm still a very visual person. I can always visualize things in my head 100 times easier than I can write them down. I'd be a better director than I would an author, although that hasn't stopped me so far. It just comes down to personality I guess.

Anyway, as I said that story itself is interesting but there are better ways to present the story and possibly even to make a more compelling story. There need to be a balance between substance of story and presentation. Just scattering random text around for players to find isn't the best way to do it and neither is solely relying on cinematic scenes. A combination of the two could be better.

Another problem is that finding the backstory doesn't affect the game, the storyline is still the same. If they could set something up where you find things that affect the storyline of the game that would be cool.

A Black Falcon
Another problem is that finding the backstory doesn't affect the game, the storyline is still the same. If they could set something up where you find things that affect the storyline of the game that would be cool.

Yes, making what you do affect the game story is a great way that games can (and have) implemented interactivity (and replay value...) into games. Definitely. Games that do that well can be great... that's a quite different aspect of interactivity. I'd mentioned it before in this thread, but it just underscores what I was saying a while back about how varied this category is...


Yes, it's true I do like books [fantasy mostly]but I'm still a very visual person. I can always visualize things in my head 100 times easier than I can write them down. I'd be a better director than I would an author, although that hasn't stopped me so far. It just comes down to personality I guess.

Every person is different (visual/aural/etc)... :)


Anyway, as I said that story itself is interesting but there are better ways to present the story and possibly even to make a more compelling story. There need to be a balance between substance of story and presentation. Just scattering random text around for players to find isn't the best way to do it and neither is solely relying on cinematic scenes. A combination of the two could be better.

Like with the Warcraft/Starcraft games where the in-depth backstory went in the manual? Yes, a lot of games put the backstory into the manual, but those ones had a lot more depth than most there...

OB1
Unlike what you seem to think, you are the only person here who frequently seems to find me annoying, as far as I know, so no, it's not especially accurate.


What on earth are you talking about?

But how would they have that much substance? As you say, they don't want this to be like MGS where you spend hours and hours watching cutscenes... any move in that direction might make the story easier to follow, but it'd also almost have to mean that there would be a simpler backstory (though it could mean a more intricate plot ocurring during the game), I'd think.



The plot in Prime is secondary, not important for the game. It's all backstory stuff and has almost no emotional weight on the gameplay experience.

If that's true, then why do most Nintendo games not try very hard to tell stories?
They're more against it than not, I'd say.


Most of their games are ones that can't really have good stories. Pretty much just adventures like Zelda and Metroid can really have good stories, and (recently, at least) they do.

It really depends on the game. Ideally most types of games should have stories... and depth in stories is good, in my opinion. As long as it's interesting I don't mind at all having more to read. I doubt you're saying that books lack emotion (obviously false), so are you saying that the way it was written wasn't good enough? Hmm... I don't know. It seemed (in the history sections) like it was trying to explain what happened... emotion? Sure there is some. Not as much as some games, probably, though. But the story it tells is good. I loved the whole scan visor aspect of the game... a lot of the things it tells you are, imo, definitely worth the time it takes to scan everything. ... but that might be an aspect of liking adventure games, I think it helps when you can get textual (or voice) descriptions of objects or events... Eternal Darkness, for instance. The text descriptions of objects and stuff was one of my favorite aspects of that game.

And for 'telling a great story' you know which game I'll mention again, but I doubt that that'll make anyone here go and try to find it, so what's the point...

I'll just do this.



*sigh*

You're really clueless, aren't you? I've gone in depth explaining how random bits of text that have little emotional impact on your character or the story of the game at all are nothing like a good novel or movie, but you don't seem to be smart enough to understand a thing that I'm saying (or are just so damn egotistical that you refuse to listen), so I'm not going to explain myself again.

A Black Falcon
The plot in Prime is secondary, not important for the game. It's all backstory stuff and has almost no emotional weight on the gameplay experience.

My point is that I found said backstory interesting. I did. That means I liked it. And as I said I also liked how it gave you lots of (text) details about the world (not just the story) in the things you scan. That was really great and something that, as I clearly said, I wish more games had... :)

Anyway, this was supposed to be about Fallout originally... and that game's thing isn't totally random facts and stuff without integrating it into the game more closely (though it has some of that with you slowly discovering the world outside of the Vault), but is more about nonlinearity and the fact that you don't have to go after the story if you don't want to... that's its connection to Prime. But in most ways they are quite different, I think...

What on earth are you talking about?

That as far as I know you're the only one here who constantly complains about me being annoying...


Most of their games are ones that can't really have good stories. Pretty much just adventures like Zelda and Metroid can really have good stories, and (recently, at least) they do.

Somewhat true, yes. But what kinds of games you make says something about your design philosophy you know! And they have definitely made games with not much story that could have had even a semblance of one (like, oh, hmm... Smash Brothers?)...

OB1
My point is that I found said backstory interesting. I did. That means I liked it. And as I said I also liked how it gave you lots of (text) details about the world (not just the story) in the things you scan. That was really great and something that, as I clearly said, I wish more games had...

Anyway, this was supposed to be about Fallout originally... and that game's thing isn't totally random facts and stuff without integrating it into the game more closely (though it has some of that with you slowly discovering the world outside of the Vault), but is more about nonlinearity and the fact that you don't have to go after the story if you don't want to... that's its connection to Prime. But in most ways they are quite different, I think...

I also liked the backstory, but no matter how good it is I still would never say that Metroid Prime is a good piece of story-telling.

That as far as I know you're the only one here who constantly complains about me being annoying...

I'm the only one here who even bothers to respond to your posts.

Somewhat true, yes. But what kinds of games you make says something about your design philosophy you know! And they have definitely made games with not much story that could have had even a semblance of one (like, oh, hmm... Smash Brothers?)...

Nintendo likes to make super-fun games, and sometimes story gets in the way. But when possible, they do strive to make a good story.

A Black Falcon
I'm the only one here who even bothers to respond to your posts.

Not always true. It's probably a similar proportion to the number who respond to you. :)

Nintendo likes to make super-fun games, and sometimes story gets in the way. But when possible, they do strive to make a good story.

That's not really true and you know it... making it fun is primary. Which is great, but at some point story does matter.

I also liked the backstory, but no matter how good it is I still would never say that Metroid Prime is a good piece of story-telling.

Fine, whatever. I don't think there is much left to say about Prime, really... But how about the rest of my point...

OB1
Not always true. It's probably a similar proportion to the number who respond to you.

Well there aren't many people that post as much as we do.

That's not really true and you know it... making it fun is primary. Which is great, but at some point story does matter.

And how does that contradict what I said?

Fine, whatever. I don't think there is much left to say about Prime, really... But how about the rest of my point...

What about it?

A Black Falcon
Well there aren't many people that post as much as we do.

Unless you're missing, which you seem to be more often this year...

And how does that contradict what I said?

Just that you were giving story more importance in many Nintendo games than I would, I thought.

What about it?

No comment? You don't care at all? Fine... sigh... but I know you have an opinion...

OB1
Unless you're missing, which you seem to be more often this year...

Well it's boring sometimes.

Just that you were giving story more importance in many Nintendo games than I would, I thought.

Sakamoto and Aunoma are two of Nintendo's biggest directors, and they think story is important.

No comment? You don't care at all? Fine... sigh... but I know you have an opinion...

I already responded to all of that.

A Black Falcon
Sakamoto and Aunoma are two of Nintendo's biggest directors, and they think story is important.

And it's a good start.

I already responded to all of that.

Your response about Fallout? You seemed to complain more about the perspective and graphics than anything... and said the story was bad. Though I can't figure out how you could say that...

OB1
Your response about Fallout? You seemed to complain more about the perspective and graphics than anything... and said the story was bad. Though I can't figure out how you could say that...

I never got far enough in Fallout to see if the story was bad. I was talking about BG.

A Black Falcon
I know this died a while back, but I have to say it... Midway was never awful, but the last few years have been tough. They didn't adapt well after leaving the arcade business, I think. But they are recovering now, and have hired some great talent... remember a while back John Romero and Tom Hall joined Midway? J.E. Sawyer of Black Isle is also there... that's good talent.

He has a nice entry in this article about multisystem games (of rpgs)...
http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/535/535708p2.html

This one is from the first installment of that (from a guy who worked on Arx Fatalis) and is also pretty good I think.
http://rpgvault.ign.com/articles/534/534586p3.html

I never got far enough in Fallout to see if the story was bad. I was talking about BG.

Ah. BG is a bit light on story, I guess. It seemed great at the time, but looking back... yes, you go long periods of time with no story progression in that title. It defintely could have been a lot better, and they made major improvements in BGII. As for Fallout, why not??

Private Hudson
Ok, I may be a little off the track as far as this conversation is going, but I thought I'd chime in again.

The plot in Prime is secondary, not important for the game. It's all backstory stuff and has almost no emotional weight on the gameplay experience.

This I agree with. The game is set up on a very simple premise. In a very Pikmin, or even ICO way, the game is set up for you so you can progress through without having to worry about the story. You don't have any real-time plot twists and backstabbing, and government organisations that you're working for, which is very effective for the overall feel of the game.

However, MP does have a story to tell (rather, a back-story, but regardless..), and I think it does this in a very unique way which leaves it up to the player to discover at his/her own discretion (as we've all discussed). This means that for those of you who just want to play the game, progress, power-up and get off the planet and not have to worry about the story - this is all you have to do. But for those of us like ABF who thrive on the small details, the adventuring, the discovering the little facets of the game it's a perfect way to tell a story so that he can get more out of the game.

Does the game tell a story effectively? Well, there's really not much of a real-time story to tell, so it doesn't need to tell a story well. But it does offer more story depth than it necessarily needs to, which is what I like about it.

All this has probably already been covered and whatever, just thought I'd respond.














Oh, and you're both equally annoying.
http://www.rage.ws/pictures/2002/07-12/brian-giving-the-finger.jpg

A Black Falcon
Oh, and you're both equally annoying.

Yeah, that seems to be a common sentiment in threads like these... :)


This I agree with. The game is set up on a very simple premise. In a very Pikmin, or even ICO way, the game is set up for you so you can progress through without having to worry about the story. You don't have any real-time plot twists and backstabbing, and government organisations that you're working for, which is very effective for the overall feel of the game.

However, MP does have a story to tell (rather, a back-story, but regardless..), and I think it does this in a very unique way which leaves it up to the player to discover at his/her own discretion (as we've all discussed). This means that for those of you who just want to play the game, progress, power-up and get off the planet and not have to worry about the story - this is all you have to do. But for those of us like ABF who thrive on the small details, the adventuring, the discovering the little facets of the game it's a perfect way to tell a story so that he can get more out of the game.

Does the game tell a story effectively? Well, there's really not much of a real-time story to tell, so it doesn't need to tell a story well. But it does offer more story depth than it necessarily needs to, which is what I like about it.

All this has probably already been covered and whatever, just thought I'd respond.

Yeah, I pretty much agree. The actual events of the game you are playing through have almost no story. The story doesn't tell what is happening in your journey but explains WHY things are as they are in your journey by telling about what happened before. That is definitely different from most games... where I'd differ a bit is on how much that is about what is happening in the game. Yes, the events described are not about what is happening as you play, that is true. But what they describe directly explains why things are happening as they are so it tells you why the world is as it is and what your quest is about and why you are doing it in a way that, when you think about it, really isn't that different from if they had had it like most games and had the story that you run across in the game (however you do that) be events occurring during the time frame the game covers. Most games slowly reveal the plot as you progress. This does the same, but it does it in the context of why what is going on around you is going on and why you have to do the quest you are doing, but not in the context of what you are actually doing at the moment... but really, as I said, the effect is pretty much the same, I think. Do I make any sense here?

Private Hudson
Do I make any sense here?

Uhh... gamepads?

A Black Falcon
Did you read that post? Really, I explain it pretty well...

OB1
I know this died a while back, but I have to say it... Midway was never awful, but the last few years have been tough. They didn't adapt well after leaving the arcade business, I think. But they are recovering now, and have hired some great talent... remember a while back John Romero and Tom Hall joined Midway? J.E. Sawyer of Black Isle is also there... that's good talent.
Yeah Romero is a genius all right. Let's see, what has he made since he left id?
Daiktana... awesomeness
Hyper Space Delivery Boy... awesome... if it were a cellphone game
Red Faction for the N-Gage... supremely awesome
This I agree with. The game is set up on a very simple premise. In a very Pikmin, or even ICO way, the game is set up for you so you can progress through without having to worry about the story. You don't have any real-time plot twists and backstabbing, and government organisations that you're working for, which is very effective for the overall feel of the game.

However, MP does have a story to tell (rather, a back-story, but regardless..), and I think it does this in a very unique way which leaves it up to the player to discover at his/her own discretion (as we've all discussed). This means that for those of you who just want to play the game, progress, power-up and get off the planet and not have to worry about the story - this is all you have to do. But for those of us like ABF who thrive on the small details, the adventuring, the discovering the little facets of the game it's a perfect way to tell a story so that he can get more out of the game.

Does the game tell a story effectively? Well, there's really not much of a real-time story to tell, so it doesn't need to tell a story well. But it does offer more story depth than it necessarily needs to, which is what I like about it.

All this has probably already been covered and whatever, just thought I'd respond.


Pikmin, maybe, but ICO, no way. ICO actually tells a good story through not much more than a few short cinemas, the emotional bond between yourself and Yorda, the predicament that both of you are in, and the twists and turns that happen throughout the game. The stuff in Prime is just background information, nothing that affects the game on an emotional level.

And remember that this is coming from the biggest Metroid Prime fan here. It's my favorite game ever right next to Super Metroid.

A Black Falcon
Yeah Romero is a genius all right. Let's see, what has he made since he left id?
Daiktana... awesomeness
Hyper Space Delivery Boy... awesome... if it were a cellphone game
Red Faction for the N-Gage... supremely awesome

Hyperspace Delivery Boy is great for what it was trying to do. And didn't he leave before they finished Red Faction for N-Gage? :)

Tom Hall is certainly better, though. And Sawyer.

The stuff in Prime is just background information, nothing that affects the game on an emotional level.

Hudson said that exact same thing, OB1. And while I didn't completely disagree, this is what I said... you miss it? :)


Yeah, I pretty much agree. The actual events of the game you are playing through have almost no story. The story doesn't tell what is happening in your journey but explains WHY things are as they are in your journey by telling about what happened before. That is definitely different from most games... where I'd differ a bit is on how much that is about what is happening in the game. Yes, the events described are not about what is happening as you play, that is true. But what they describe directly explains why things are happening as they are so it tells you why the world is as it is and what your quest is about and why you are doing it in a way that, when you think about it, really isn't that different from if they had had it like most games and had the story that you run across in the game (however you do that) be events occurring during the time frame the game covers. Most games slowly reveal the plot as you progress. This does the same, but it does it in the context of why what is going on around you is going on and why you have to do the quest you are doing, but not in the context of what you are actually doing at the moment... but really, as I said, the effect is pretty much the same, I think. Do I make any sense here?

OB1
Hyperspace Delivery Boy is great for what it was trying to do. And didn't he leave before they finished Red Faction for N-Gage?

Tom Hall is certainly better, though. And Sawyer.



What exactly did those guys do?

Hudson said that exact same thing, OB1. And while I didn't completely disagree, this is what I said... you miss it?



What of it?

A Black Falcon
What exactly did those guys do?

Tom Hall was the main person behind the Keen games, before he left ID. He also worked on Rise of the Triad for Apogee (3DRealms). And Anachronox with Ion Storm. Some Doom level design too, I believe... and other games. Here we go. :)
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=891/

Sawyer was with Black Isle. Designer on IWD, IWD2, and some of BIS' work on the external projects BG: DA and Lionheart.
http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId=26242/

What of it?

That's my position on that issue, that's what...

OB1
Tom Hall was the main person behind the Keen games, before he left ID. He also worked on Rise of the Triad for Apogee (3DRealms). And Anachronox with Ion Storm. Some Doom level design too, I believe... and other games. Here we go.



Tom Hall was mainly in charge of the business aspect of id, ABF.


That's my position on that issue, that's what...


So...

A Black Falcon
Tom Hall was mainly in charge of the business aspect of id, ABF.

No, he created Commander Keen and was the main designer behind all of the Keen games. And as that says he did level design for Quake and Rise of the Triad and then made Anachronox... heard of it? Console-styled PC RPG running the Quake engine, quite good reviews...

So...

So you have no response? Fine, whatever...

OB1
No, he created Commander Keen and was the main designer behind all of the Keen games. And as that says he did level design for Quake and Rise of the Triad and then made Anachronox... heard of it? Console-styled PC RPG running the Quake engine, quite good reviews...

Tom Hall did not do very much design work at id. And yeah I heard of those games.

A Black Falcon
You hadn't heard of him or something earlier today and now you know exactly what he did at ID? Uh...

Anyway, according to Moby Games he generally shows up as either a director or level designer in those games he worked on. :)

Dark Jaguar
<img src="http://www.tcforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=913&stc=1">

Well now, somebody prepaired for this photo...

In September of 1987, Tom Hall (this picture is legendary) moved from Wisconsin to Shreveport to take a job programming games at Softdisk. Tom's games back then were for Softdisk's monthly subscriptions which included such awesome titles as "Duck Boop". In March of 1989, John Romero joined Softdisk and made Tom's acquaintance. John started working on programs for Softdisk's IBM PC line.

Romero's games soon attracted the attention of a free-lance programmer in Kansas City, John Carmack, who had been working in a pizza parlor and programming on the side. Carmack's programs impressed Softdisk enough that he too made the trek to Shreveport to work for Softdisk. The two Johns started working together, and it wasn't long before Tom started sneaking in at night to work with them because Softdisk management would not allow them to collaborate openly.

Then, the first breakthrough. John Carmack devised a smooth, scrolling routine similar to that used for the background of Nintendo games but never before possible on the PC. When Tom Hall saw the scrolling in action, his first thoughts were to pull a prank on Romero. In the course of one night, Hall and Carmack reproduced the first level of Super Mario 3, pixel by pixel, replacing Mario with a character of their own named Dangerous Dave. They finished the work around 5AM, calling it "Dangerous Dave in Copyright Infringement". Tom & John put the disk on Romero's desk, and left to get some sleep. John Romero arrived at Softdisk that day, booted up the game, and did not stop to take a breath until three hours later. More than a prank, Romero saw the staggering commercial potential of Carmack's design.

There was also at Softdisk a project manager named Jay Wilbur. Romero approached Jay with a new Super Mario demo. Allured by the same visions of limitless wealth, Jay approached Nintendo. It is rumored that id's Mario demo (shown here) made it to the highest levels of Nintendo, but this has never actually been confirmed over the years. However, Nintendo declined the idea deciding that Mario wasn't for the PC, it was a console only title. In the end, the Softdisk guys decided to pursue the game on their own - in secret, of course, as they weren't supposed to be working together in the first place at Softdisk. Why? Who knows now?

Tom Hall remembers... "Softdisk didn't want to use the smooth scrolling trick Carmack had discovered (since it didn't also work in CGA), so we thought, well, if they don't want it, we could do something ourselves... So we thought, hey, we'll make our own game. We needed a topic. I asked if they cared what topic - sci-fi, fantasy, whatever. I think Carmack mentioned a kid that saves the galaxy or something. I went off and fifteen minutes later, came back with the paragraph that you see in Keen 1. I read it in a Walter Winchell voice (he's a nasal 40s radio/newsreel announcer). Carmack clapped after I was finished, and we were off and running."

The paragraph of text that Tom refers to is the text that appears at the beginning of Keen 1:

Billy Blaze, eight year-old genius, working diligently in his backyard clubhouse has created an interstellar starship from old soup cans, rubber cement and plastic tubing. While his folks are out on the town and the babysitter has fallen asleep, Billy travels into his backyard workshop, dons his brother's football helmet, and transforms into...

COMMANDER KEEN--defender of Earth!

In his ship, the Bean-with-Bacon Megarocket, Keen dispenses galactic justice with an iron hand!

Meanwhile, a series of peculiar fan letters had been arriving at Softdisk, praising John Romero's games. At first, seeming to represent the ravings of a wide number of Softdisk fans, Romero eventually determined that all the letters came from the same address in Garland, TX. Discovering the fraud, Romero fired off a threatening letter, and in this manner made contact with id's first benefactor. Scott Miller, anonymous author of the many letters, was a founder of Apogee Software, a pioneer in the shareware approach to marketing computer games. Miller told Romero that he loved the Softdisk games and wanted to lure them into the shareware market. Romero sent Miller a game called Catacombs, which whetted Miller's appetite. But once he got a glimpse of the Super Mario demo for the PC that Carmack & Romero had done, he offered to put up some money to finance their first real game. Hall, Romero, & Carmack asked for $2,000 to get their game off the ground. Miller had $5,000 in his bank account - he promptly sent them a check for 2/5 of that.

For three months, the trio programmed for Softdisk during the day, and slaved away on "Commander Keen: Invasion of the Vorticons" in every free moment. However, they needed some more folks to help complete the game, so they set out to recruit some new blood. They had long admired the artistry of an intern at Softdisk, Adrian Carmack (no relation). They invited Adrian to join them and finished Commander Keen with significant improvements to the look of the final levels.

Adrian Carmack remembers his initial involvement in Commander Keen:

"Hmm...well as I recall I drew and animated one of the characters. I don't recall the name off hand. I think he was some sort of a Ninja type of character. I created some teleport windows, a few awful illustrations, etc. Ugh..bad memories. I had just started creating computer art, so it was definitely not some of my better work. Plus I wasn't a cartoonist. I had quite a learning curve on the Keen series. My work on the later Keens was much improved."

http://www.3drealms.com/keenhistory/

A Black Falcon
DJ, is that supposed to be a 'Duke wants you to stop stealing our bandwidth' sign, DJ? It's pretty cool though... :)

And yes, I've read that article before. I don't know if OB1 has though... it's good. As I said, Tom Hall really created Keen. And he wasn't a business guy, OB1. That was Jay Wilbur, I beleive... Tom Hall works on games.

Dark Jaguar
Ah nuts... Honestly, it's not stealing when they PUT IT THERE! Eh, oh well...

OB1
You hadn't heard of him or something earlier today and now you know exactly what he did at ID? Uh...

Anyway, according to Moby Games he generally shows up as either a director or level designer in those games he worked on.


No no, of course I've heard of him, we even talked about him a week ago.

DJ, is that supposed to be a 'Duke wants you to stop stealing our bandwidth' sign, DJ? It's pretty cool though...

And yes, I've read that article before. I don't know if OB1 has though... it's good. As I said, Tom Hall really created Keen. And he wasn't a business guy, OB1. That was Jay Wilbur, I beleive... Tom Hall works on games.


According to several interviews by Carmack, and that id biography, Hall didn't do nearly as much programming as much as the rest of id and was mainly in charge of running the business of id. He may have come up with Keen, but I don't think he directed the game.

And that picture is hilarious. Tom Hall looks like a smarmy Las Vegas magician. :lol:

A Black Falcon
Here's him now. :)

http://www.tomtomtom.com/asmalltom.jpg

Keen was really Tom Hall's series more than anyone else's, though, OB1. That much I know for a fact. He's said quite a few times that he really liked making the Keen games and that if he could ever get the rights again he'd make a new one (in 3d, like they were starting to think about before Wolf 3D and Doom set ID against platformers) in a second... but that's not happening. :(

Oh, this is his website. www.tomtomtom.com

This page is quite exhaustive in games he's worked on. http://www.tomtomtom.com/games.shtml

http://www.johnromero.com/phpubb/viewtopic.php?t=2942 Tom Hall is working on Area 51 (PS2/XBox)... I think Romero is working on Gauntlet, but I'm not sure. No idea about Sawyer.

OB1
I miss the awesome magician look already.

Dark Jaguar
What happened?!

OB1
Some chainsaw-for-legs rocket-demon burned all his hair off.

Great Rumbler
He shouldn't have left home without his plasma rifle.

OB1
Or his magic wand.

Great Rumbler
Or his +2/+2 mace of much hurting.

A Black Falcon
+2/+2?

Great Rumbler
+2 to attack and +2 to defense. Don't you know anything?

A Black Falcon
Swords do not usually give defence bonuses, silly!

OB1
Man you guys are such dorks.

Dark Jaguar
He's thinking Magic: Da Gatherinating... Or, it's all like "the best defense is a good offense". The best offense is of course multiple tactical missile strikes that totally incapacitate an enemy instantly.

A Black Falcon
... and I'm thinking of D&D. :)

Where a "+2" sword may be a sword like this: 1d8+4. Yup, +4 can be +2! How so? Because the "+" rating doesn't mean anything concrete except as a ranking for resistances. As in, certain very tough enemy types that can only be hit with magic weapons... I seem to recall one that had to be hit with +3 enchantments only. That guy was really tough because I didn't have too many of those...

Anyway, the rating doesn't translate directly to either the damage bonus or the THAC0 (D&D2) bonus, so that nice special magical swords can have damage and THAC0 bonuses above that. Like several weapons I've gotten. Which is actually a bad thing, because if that sword was a +4 and not a +2 it'd be a whole lot more useful against some monster types...

Dark Jaguar
I didn't understand a bit of that... So, why does +4 mean +2?

ABF: *moans and falls backwards on ground anime style*

A Black Falcon
Because the "sword plus-rating" does not directly translate to the damage bonus, the THAC0 bonus, or anything other than determining what types of protections that sword can hit through. :)

With your garden variety magic weapon, yeah, it will be a +1 longsword that is 1d8+1. But special weapons that have more to them than just normal enchantments can be different. Like 2d4+4+1acid+1cold with a +2 THAC0 and a +2 enchantment. I think. That might be a bit off, I'm not running BG2 right now like I was when I made that last post...

Dark Jaguar
...What ARE you talking about?!

Seriously, I have no idea what that means!

A Black Falcon
Okay, in D&D you weapons have names. Like 'Frostbite' the Long Sword. This is a magical sword. So, it gets a 'plus rating' or 'bonus rating' or whatever it's called -- the level of enchantment on the sword. +1 through +5, generally. Higher than that is extremely rare. So, if in a store you see 'Long Sword' and 'Long Sword +1', and you know the dice, you'd know that the Longsword attacks with 1d8 and the +1 longsword attacks with 1d8 + 1. As in, roll a d8 and then add one. So 2-9 damage. :) This sword will also give you a +1 to your THAC0 -- To Hit Armor Class Zero, that statistic that they dropped in D&D Third Edition and replaced with the all new armor/to-hit system. I know I've explained the D&D 2nd edition combat system before to you, though...

But when they are special magical weapons and not just normal 'Long Sword +1', the level of enchantment does not necessarially always represent the exact bonuses the sword gives. Instead, it's supposed to represent the CLASS of magical weapons it is in -- like Plus-One Weapons. So that weapon may have a actual damage of 1d8+2. Or maybe a '+2' bastard sword may do 2d4+1 with some additional bonus -- like + 1 fire damage (as in, after doing that base damage roll and adding the point do a test against their fire resistance and see if you will add one more damage on top of that -- since this is tested seperately, it'll show up seperately on screen as a different attack. Same for each one for the instance of the weapon that does +1 fire+1cold+1acid+1lightning. That stupid thing takes up five lines to show each hit... :))

Anyway. So the rating said in the name (or description) for special (as in unique) magical weapons isn't the absolute decider of what actual bonuses it does. It only denotes which class the weapon is in.

As for the thing about magic weapon rating determining which enemies it can hit, this only occurs at upper levels... before the 10th, 12th, or higher level you will not be fighting guys who require much of anything. But eventually you'll hit some guys who can only be hit with enchanted (even +1 weapons)... you can tell when your people try to hit and always fail. :) In those cases you need to find weapons with the correct rating, not a damage bonus of that number. Which in some cases can be a pain if a great weapon can't hit someone tough.

Dark Jaguar
So that + means an enchantment, and I'm to have no idea if this bonus means ice damage or just pure magic damage?

A Black Falcon
First, I'm basing all of this on Baldur's Gate II/ToB, so it's D&D2.0. or 2.5 if you prefer, it kind of is... from what I've seen in Icewind Dale II (my only third edition game -- Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance does NOT count!), 3.0 changed things quite a bit. That whole new Feat system, for instance... the removal of THAC0, retooling of saving throws, etc, etc... it's still recognizably D&D, but some of the mechanics are different.

You read the description of the item, and look at the detailed list of all its stats of course! Since they generally have different effects (when they aren't just standard enchanted weapons, which are easily recognized by their generic 'Longsword +1' names), you really have to read the descriptions (and then do some arithmetic, in some of these games, to see what it will actually do for damage) to see what the weapon really does. That one line name will give no hint that the Daystar shortsword has three or four special abilities (a bunch of pretty cool fire attacks, usable once a day each... quite a nice sword for that, if not for it's super high enchantment...) it gives you when it's equipped until you right click and read the description. :)


Oh, and remember, this is D&D. The base damage, with the die roll, is normal damage if it's just a normal weapon. If it's an enchanted weapon -- with a damage bonus like +2 -- then it does magic damage. That means that you will hurt people who have spells like Protection from Normal Weapons cast on them, but on those rare high level guys who have Protection from Magic Weapons you could have a bit of trouble... :D

Anyway, the ones that have additional bonus damage, namely fire, cold, acid, etc, then after rolling (and hitting, if you hit) for the main damage do a completely different check to see if it does the extra damages. Instead of against AC those are acid, cold, etc. so they check against your resistances/protections, not really your AC... and it's generally a +1 bonus for each so it checks to see if the resistance (it might be a a saving throw, but I think it's the resistances -- like Fire Resistance, Acid Resistance, etc. Most people don't have much, so most people take all of these hits.) blocked the hit, and then either hits the guy or doesn't. :)

I have only one weapon that does elemental damage of more than one point, which is one axe that does 1-4 cold damage. So instead of just taking off 1 point if/when the guy fails his resist cold save (resistances ONLY come from equipped items, BTW. You have no innate resistances to anything. In that way they are different from saving throws, THAC0, Armor Class (which is partially affected by your armor but also by things like your class and Dexterity)... so most enemies don't have any, unless they're some kind of magical creature or they are a powerful foe.) I'd assume that the game will do the virtual equivilant of rolling a d4 to see how much damage that cold damage will do.

OB1
Man... as much of a dork as I am, I can never compare to you, ABF. :)

Great Rumbler
As much a dork as I am I draw the line at becoming knowledgable about D&D.

Dark Jaguar
Honestly, people played this with paper and calculators?! I mean, it's WAAAYY too complicated for it's own good!

A Black Falcon
Do you understand now, DJ? ... really, I'd like to know... :)

... this is talking about the D&D computer games, not the game itsself... that is more complex. :)

I know, it is a quite complicated game... you have to minimize the math involved. Notice that in this you never do anything other than addition and dice rolling. You really can't go much beyond addition, subtraction, and maybe multiplication by multiples of 2 or something (though that's pushing it some)... yes, the rules are complex, but the math involved isn't. What is complex is remembering what the rules are in the first place. :)

Dark Jaguar
Exactly, but honestly, making +# mean mutiple things is just wrong! Use a magic or element symbol in there so we know right away!

(And yeesh, there are WAY too many rules to remember to make playing D&D in the real world any fun at all. Honestly, I've tried playing it. My friends and I never even got off the ground, we got stuck at character creation when we didn't know EXACTLY how certain stats worked... Readin ahead to the actual gameplay... well yeesh, how do you get ANYWHERE when a single TURN in battle looks to take a frickin' half hour?

Sorry, give me the games where the computer does all the boring stuff in an instant.

A Black Falcon
It definitely helps to play with people who know what they're doing, for sure. :) I've only played real D&D once, and that was a long time ago... virtually all of my experience with it comes from the PC games. And by that I mean the Interplay-style ones.

But if you get a DM that knows what they are doing it looks like it'd be great fun. My cousin and I used to like to play Hero Quest and DragonStrike, which are fantasy boardgames that are essentially simplified D&D variants... with boards. I loved those games. Quite a bit simpler than D&D, but DragonStrike at least (it was by TSR) had some depth, with feats of strength and dexterity, talking to some monsters, etc. They just make it simple with fully laid out quests in the map... though the most fun way to play probably is to make up a quest as you go (and not be restricted to any one board... or pieces really -- both games have plastic units that are the same size and boards with same-sized squares...).

Oh, and I always liked to be the DM (well, it's called 'Zargon' (for the evil badguy in the game) in Hero Quest and the 'Dragon Master' in DragonStrike, but same thing...). It's more fun than being the heroes, in my opinion.

Exactly, but honestly, making +# mean mutiple things is just wrong! Use a magic or element symbol in there so we know right away!

It doesn't mean multiple things... well, I guess it does, but each one has a well delineated place and definition and don't overlap unless you don't understand the system.

Oh, in that note, if you ever get Baldur's Gate I or II, this site's patches are invaluable. Lots of (fanmade) bug fixes, stat error fixes, system fixes, and a file that improves the quality of descriptions of exactly what items do... install these after the offical patches and before you start playing. :)

http://www.baldurdash.org/

Oh yeah, and it's not like you have to understand all the rules of D&D to play Baldur's Gate, or know all this stuff... it's not the end of the world if your stuff isn't the best in the world as long as it's decent for where you are in teh game. But it's inevitable that you'll understand the system better if you play the game a lot, which is what it takes to beat one of these games...