Should we kiss blizzard?

http://www.blizzard.com/

Incredible I really hope those bastard whores on B.net forum quit their bitching about Blizzard being evil, Because they really dont have to do this adding new content and units. Really I think blizzard should make a 2nd exspansion I wonder if these units are hints of it? I soppose WOW might screw that up. Maybe they should add the Naga as a full scale race because they almost are, The Warcraft universe is becoming more diverse and forever changing then ever the possibilities are endless to be quite frank blizzard almost doesnt need to make a new franchise they got enough already to last for years.Warcraft III could be like Half Life were when ever the game starts to get old they just add new content and a exspansion to bring life back into it, It would be more profitable and cheaper to just improve existing games rather then start somthing new from the ground up. Blizzard North needs to make another franchise so each division of blizzard has two universes to work with and cash in on.

I'd heard of the Goblin Alchemist (though I'd rather see a Gnomish unit! Yeah, that one looks cool, but the Gnomes have NO units in War3... sure, sure WoW explains why. But still.), but this other one is a surprise to me... awesome! And he's pretty cool looking too... Yeah, Blizz doesn't have to keep making these patches. They could just abandon the game balance at some point. But they keep making small adjustments even though at this point they probably don't have to. And keep the intrest in their games high. But stuff like this... Blizz has never added units to its games anywhere other than in expansions before! Really awesome.

Indeed, the difference between WC3 Frozen Throne's first release and now is rather incredible.

There are still a couple things I'd like to see though. I mentioned both to ABF in the past. First, change the scroll wheel's function to something useful, like an alternative way of switching subgroups. I've tried posting this in the suggestions area, but it got swept away very quickly (though before it disappeared altogether, all of the 3 who responded agreed it was a good idea).

The second thing I'd like to see would have a much bigger effect. WC3 Frozen Throne added shipyards. They are neutral buildings but they went the extra mile and made 4 unique kinds for each major race (and a few others as well, like Goblin), with unique ship types at that. It's only appearence and sounds, not behavior, but it's still a nice touch. Anyway, my idea is that instead of them being neutral buildings, each of these 4 unique race specific types should be constructable by the races they correspond to. As far as balance, since all the ships act the same no matter the paint job, that's not really a concern (though considering how they are used in combination with other units, there could be balance issues...). Is this a major change to the gameplay? I should think so, however it's only a major change when water is around. The ladder maps all have very little water, where building shipyards would be useless, if not impossible (like WC2, they would have to be built by water). I would suggest they add ladder maps with lakes and oceans all around with this change specifically in mind. At the very least, test it in the beta server for a while to see how it goes. The shipyards are already there, it's just a matter of drawing a "build" icon, setting up the build rules, and allowing every race's builders to make them when it's possible. I won't even suggest adding "oil" to the mix though, that's way too much.

Anyway, if they made these two changes (and hopefully I'm right about the balance being a non-issue), I'd call it perfect (and they would STILL be adding extra neutral heros :D, like maybe a dwarven captain (hey, MOST of the dwarves are missing, enough for them to be CONSIDERED totally gone, but one or two that aren't associated with Ironforge could still come along and help, right?).

There are still a couple things I'd like to see though. I mentioned both to ABF in the past. First, change the scroll wheel's function to something useful, like an alternative way of switching subgroups. I've tried posting this in the suggestions area, but it got swept away very quickly (though before it disappeared altogether, all of the 3 who responded agreed it was a good idea).

Maybe make that an option, but the default function is somewhat useful too...

As for the shipyards, I think that they probably should be left as they are. Just put them in more maps. But that really would be a huge gameplay change, bigger than you might expect, DJ, and I don't know if it'd be such a good idea...



Anyway, if they made these two changes (and hopefully I'm right about the balance being a non-issue), I'd call it perfect (and they would STILL be adding extra neutral heros , like maybe a dwarven captain (hey, MOST of the dwarves are missing, enough for them to be CONSIDERED totally gone, but one or two that aren't associated with Ironforge could still come along and help, right?).

Huh? There are a huge number of Dwarven units! A HUGE number! It's Gnomes that are missing... :)

That's what I meant.... gnomes... Same diff :D. Smelly old hill dwelling midgets anyway.

Anyway, I never used the camera feature, but yes having it as an option would be best, right in the gameplay heading.

As for shipyards, as I said, I really can't see it affecting the existing set of ladder maps much at all, since they really don't have any water anyway, thus building them would be pretty much impossible.

The alternative, keeping them all neutral buildings, but actually placing them in a large number of water related ladder maps, would also work. I just want to set sail in multi, a LOT more often! I've already mentioned this in IM, but again, for the sake of theme alone, if they pick this method, they should make it so that the shipyard nearest to a player automatically is that player's race. Thus, the shipyard near the human player's base is a human shipyard, and the shipyard near the undead player's base is the undead shipyard (ghost ships, gotta love 'em). Of course, this would involve specfic map programming, and they could set a few shipyards far away from any player starting points and make them goblin or whatever too :D, but for the sake of a common theme, so it actually sorta feels like that shipyard is on your team (even though it's neutral), they should go ahead with that.

Actually, on a similar note, neutral buildings don't always have to be neutral. They could set up a script so they must be "claimed" and are then only under the control of whoever claimed it, from a distance even. You know, something like that.

Again, either way would allow me to get into a lot more navel warfare :D, and either way isn't TOO hard to at least set up the basics for (except the map design part, that would take the longest), so I figure they should do that for the very next patch, which would be a "trial" patch only in beta first to see how people like that addition. I bet people will :D.

I always wanted naval focused maps , I like DJ's idea of claiming a structure to construct vessels,To me what you would do is have preplaced foundation to a shipyard,Your hero will click on it and then start constructing your own race based shipyard on it, A small inspiration from starcraft you also build a add on attachement to the shipyard were you will be abled to research upgrades and improvements which helps keep it balanced having battlecruisers right from the begining could be a problem.

It would be the best place to add Gnomes, If you remeber the Gnomes made submarines in Warcraft II, I say bring them back , They would be invisible as a submerged unit unless you have flying machine or also the option of loading a shade into a transport and giving that vessel true sight. More interesting is the idea of giving Heroes sea mounts just specifically for the hero so you can keep his abilities even sailing on high tide.All would be Amphibious and could travel on land , Now some Heroes like the farseer and the Deathknight would actually get off their premade mounts and jump on to the new one and would automatically get on their old one as they dismount as well.

The Major problem of all is the fact Air units would dominate sea units ,What I would do for the transport is allow ranged units to attack air units when loaded inside, But as a upgrade probaily the same time aerial units arrive at the scene. Also all the air units have a anti air attack so the air units will actually get masacred by navals, I would imagine their would be some magically enhanced vessels too, The Undead could raise destroyed enemy vessels into Undead ghost ships which like skeletons warriors would have a timer and burn out eventually.

It would be the best place to add Gnomes, If you remeber the Gnomes made submarines in Warcraft II, I say bring them back , They would be invisible as a submerged unit unless you have flying machine or also the option of loading a shade into a transport and giving that vessel true sight. More interesting is the idea of giving Heroes sea mounts just specifically for the hero so you can keep his abilities even sailing on high tide.All would be Amphibious and could travel on land , Now some Heroes like the farseer and the Deathknight would actually get off their premade mounts and jump on to the new one and would automatically get on their old one as they dismount as well.

Gnomes designed things like the Flying Machine and, I think, Steam Tank, but Dwarves actually operate them in War3... I wish Gnomes were. One of War3's few bad things, imo. :)

Sea mounts for heroes? Bad idea. They tried flying heroes and grounded all of them because it gave them too much power... sea is a bit more limiting but it'd still cause horrible issues. Better not, I think.


The Major problem of all is the fact Air units would dominate sea units ,What I would do for the transport is allow ranged units to attack air units when loaded inside, But as a upgrade probaily the same time aerial units arrive at the scene. Also all the air units have a anti air attack so the air units will actually get masacred by navals, I would imagine their would be some magically enhanced vessels too, The Undead could raise destroyed enemy vessels into Undead ghost ships which like skeletons warriors would have a timer and burn out eventually.

I'm sure that if they tried they could balance it out... Blizz is masters of balancing things (eventually), so if they really worked at it they could get it right, don't worry. :)

As for sea units themselves, I certainly admit that I liked them in War2 and liked them in the War3 expansion. But War3 multiplayer... you'd need to make all new maps for sea combat, first. There aren't many I know of that have seaports (none in ladder I believe...), after all... and that would be a huge undertaking. It takes quite a while for Blizz to make maps... this factor alone will probably keep them from ever making seaports normal buildings in War3. What I would like to see, as I have said, are some of their maps of the week/month (whatever it is) to be sea maps. :)

Somthing blizzard could almost do now is add a Gnomish Spider mech like they have in WOW as a hero. If they made a 2nd exspansion It could be a new Human hero? The Humans have two casters and two fighters why not add the mechanical hero who doesnt use magic or brawn.

Abilities and description.

A mechanical steady moving Tarantula like hero , Is neither brute force or magical in nature, Crafted by the Gnomish inventors originaly as a prototype in a desperate attempt to save their precious glorious city of Gnomegren at the hands of barbaric invaders, The protoype was not completed in time and it was far to late to save their kingdom the Gnomish surivivors were abled to successfully smuggle the blue prints out of the doomed Gnomegren and head to Iron forge city and with the help of their dwarven cousins they could have a chance to perfect the design and eventually be abled to construct enough weaponary to retake their city and help king Magni in the mean time from the same Trogg defilers.

Chain net , Works simular to a raider net except far more effective and longer lasting, Enemy units both ground and aerial alike will have to fight their way free it also as a 3 second stun effect on the targeted units so this ability can be use as a interupter.

Ratteling Guns, basically a machine gun with rapid fire, Its more like a controled Fan of knives were it will target a specific unit and fire directly at it and do damage to any enemy units in the path of the target.

Leap ,Allows the spider walker to make a huge leap in the air, It works simular to the wardens blink except it can pounce on a target and do some limited damage.

Ultimate Death grip , Works simular to leap Except it snatches hold of a enemy target and starts a 10 second count down to self destruct which destroys the Gnomish Spider mech but allows the you to control the snatched enemy unit and move into any place with reduced movement speed untill detonation, causes a Shockwave that deals scatterd damage to units and buildings, The Gnome pilot ejects and sacrifices the mech but cannot come back untill later revived at cost of any tavern or Alter.

Counter to death grip? If you bolt or use a interupter it cancels out the Death grib and frees the snatched unit the Gnome Spider mech will also live but will not regain lossed mana on the ultimate, The Spider walker will be thwarted from his Kamikaze attack but also be alive to continue fighting, You also can kill the spider walker before the countdown is complete but doing so will kill the snatched unit with it unless it is a hero which will take a 3rd of its life points away.

Gnomes designed things like the Flying Machine and, I think, Steam Tank, but Dwarves actually operate them in War3... I wish Gnomes were. One of War3's few bad things, imo. :)

Sea mounts for heroes? Bad idea. They tried flying heroes and grounded all of them because it gave them too much power... sea is a bit more limiting but it'd still cause horrible issues. Better not, I think.



I'm sure that if they tried they could balance it out... Blizz is masters of balancing things (eventually), so if they really worked at it they could get it right, don't worry. :)

As for sea units themselves, I certainly admit that I liked them in War2 and liked them in the War3 expansion. But War3 multiplayer... you'd need to make all new maps for sea combat, first. There aren't many I know of that have seaports (none in ladder I believe...), after all... and that would be a huge undertaking. It takes quite a while for Blizz to make maps... this factor alone will probably keep them from ever making seaports normal buildings in War3. What I would like to see, as I have said, are some of their maps of the week/month (whatever it is) to be sea maps. :)

Sea battles would have to be a gameplay option , If you dont want to play it you should have the option of checking it off.You will find a equal amount of people craving for Naval warfare namely old War2 fans then people who hate it.

Getting maps well blizzard is resourceful , I would have a map contest to acomplish this, Get people who are artist and level designers to apply to get the updated build editor kit once they have submited 2 maps blizzard will then expire the kit to prevent hackers and abusers.It would be like a contest but for professionals, The winner would recieve a job at blizzard and a free copy of the game and other goodies. Make 5 maps and then have a beta to fix it out and make it fun, Blizzard made a map called Islands it didnt work out to good because blizzard neverly really supported it , The Air units over dominated the map and people were fustrated because its a map made for focusing on Sea combat but the only sea faring was crappy bland transports so basically this was a half finnished incomplete map that would have worked if only the game functioned differently.

The Dwarf flying machine is shit it sucks as a scout it doesnt even serve its own purpose , I would redo the hole thing appearence and performance all of it from scratch. I would make it look like a Wright brothers plane with a properler and more closer to the original, Secondly It would be a Gnomish flying machine again. It would be a spy plane, It would have smoke screens and flare markers most importantly true seeing option.Secondly I would allow sorcessoress to make it invisible to be honnest there is nothing unfair about it because you already have the shade which is perminant.

Actually, a map contest would be a nice idea.

All that talk about expansions for the building and special race specific abilities, that's thinking way too far ahead. Blizzard will totally ignore the idea, and rightfully so, if we suggest all that at ONCE. Take things one bit at a time, even if it's just the shipyards it's no biggy.

As far as an option for the gameplay, they've never added options to play in old versions before, I don't think they'd start now. And once again, I must stress that shipyards can't even be used except in maps with water, and even then, it would be a waste to use them unless the water was actually a major obstacle. None of the ladder maps are designed with this in mind, yet, so honestly I doubt this change would affect the existing ladder games.

Now, as for your suggestion of some sort of magic circle or some sort of event square where you can build a shipyard, but nowhere else, that's interesting... Simply claiming existing shipyards would be easier I think though....

Gnomes can't be in there as a large collection of units working for one side, thanks to the story exposition for WOW anyway (it's not OUT yet though, they could alter the story a bit and include a clan or two that broke off, instead of a lone soldier), thus my suggestion of a new neutral hero.

And ABF, air units dominating ocean forces... That's something I was thinking of, but I think it would actually be best to allow this. Navel forces wouldn't be "top tier" in my tech tree ideal. They would be cheaper than air units, being less mobile (except transport, for obvious reasons, the explanation being "the extreme cost of carrying certain heavy cargo (read: giant obelisk statues) means transport vessels are especially expensive to contruct and maintain").

Anyway, enough talk, time to suggest it to blizzard. If you show up ASM, do NOT screw this up for me! :D Seriously, don't go overboard and suggest all the rest of your ideas all at once (wait until they add the shipyards, if they do), or they will just say "nah" to the whole thing!

http://www.blizzard.com/press/tokyopop.shtml

Seems they are making a Warcraft "Manga". Though honestly, it's not really one... The story is written by an American, and the artwork is done by a Korean. Manga, at least as (un)popular American slang, means "comic drawn in Japan". I suppose it's got that infamous style, but oh well. The pages it shows there are very well done. It's an interesting take on the look of the franchise anyway. I've never bought books based on games mind you, but I'm actually vaguelly interested in this.

In more shipyard related niweeews, I just went and fished around the map editor. I should have messed around some more. Turns out, these neutral buildings actually are already assigned to each race. So, all they really would need to do is give the builders the button to construct them. More than that, the construction rules of WC2 (it must be built on both land and water, well actually it can only be built on the land right next to the water here, as opposed to the water right next to the land in WC2). So, everything's already right in the game, ALMOST as though they are already planning this... hmm...

Anyway, I am going to actually build a water-centric map myself. I will build two versions. In one, I'll simply allow all builders for each race to construct their race's corresponding shipyard (just watch, I'll spend so much time trying to pick just the right button I'll accidently assign the undead shipyard to both undead and night elves or something, I'm always messing stuff up like that...). In the other, I'll just put the shipyards next to the water so you have to get to them. I'll also work on a script to make them be the same as whatever race they are nearest, but the main problem there is such custom scripts are disabled when the game is played normally without map settings... Perhaps I'll just make them all goblin shipyards for that one.

Anyway, the point is I'll be battling with ABF in custom games, if he's up to it (and he'll beat me horribly I imagine), to test out my idea here ourselves. At the same time, I'll find out if I'm any good at map design :D.

Well then, that in mind, while I'm building these things, feel free to toss in suggestions about other aspects of this map (both will be fairly identical, I'm only making the basic change I mentioned to differentiate the two).

Ya know, I figure someone's already made this before all things considering, but I haven't heard of it, and I'm itching to mess around with this editor (even though I really won't be doing much except drawing this time around), so I'm doing it anyway.

Gnomes can't be in there as a large collection of units working for one side, thanks to the story exposition for WOW anyway (it's not OUT yet though, they could alter the story a bit and include a clan or two that broke off, instead of a lone soldier), thus my suggestion of a new neutral hero.

That, I think, was a lame after-the-fact 'explanation' of why Blizzard likes Dwarves more than Gnomes. Poor little guys... :)


All that talk about expansions for the building and special race specific abilities, that's thinking way too far ahead. Blizzard will totally ignore the idea, and rightfully so, if we suggest all that at ONCE. Take things one bit at a time, even if it's just the shipyards it's no biggy.


Sorry to dissapoint you, but I expect they'll totally ignore it however you present it. Sorry. :)

As for ocean combat... right now there could be maps with sea combat with the shipyard. Or Custom mode ocean combat. Or combat on the maps that do have ocean. I don't see much of that. Either that says that very few maps have oceans (true for Blizz maps, and also for fanmade ones it seems), people don't have that much interest in ocean combat (seems to be somewhat true), or something else... but I just don't see the intrest there for Blizzard to make a big effort to do much that would be hard. It just doesn't quite make sense. As you say air would dominate sea and air can do everything sea can do but better, so what's sea's niche? Just to look cool? And without even something like oil platforms (like in war2 -- that is, buildings at sea), there isn't much point... bombardment? Air. Transport? Air. What purpose does sea fufill other than being cool looking? I can't think of much in a game like Warcraft III. And sea maps need to be specially made and designed just for ocean combat, unlike other maps, so its usefulness is limited... this was seen in War2 where most people just played on land and didn't get to sea. Air was used a whole lot more. So in SC and WC3 they ditched sea units. Yeah, some people loved sea in War2, but they greatly expanded air to try to make up for it...

Anyway, the point is I'll be battling with ABF in custom games, if he's up to it (and he'll beat me horribly I imagine), to test out my idea here ourselves. At the same time, I'll find out if I'm any good at map design.

I'd love to play against you at war3 more than, oh, twice a year but you never come onto MSN and say you want to so...

You have brought up a very good point, and the reason I think they just scrapped sea battles altogether in SC.

Sea's niche is the poor man's air units if you ask me, and sublteness. I've come up with exactly 3 scenarios where sea does better. Air, overall, is better, but that's why it's more expensive.

Anyway, here goes.

First scenario, in an ocean map, a large section can't be crossed, and therefor can't be SEEN, by land units. So, sea units can easily sneak around and do as they wish until opposing sea units, or later air units, show up.

Second, in a fast battle, one where the aerial stuff just ain't gonna happen, but the mid range power is the deciding factor, there's still navel forces.

Final scenario, defendability. In WC2 anyway, defending against landfall was always a hard prospect, namely due to the inability of land units to really mix it up. Both flying units and other land units can be swarmed into and broken up. Sea units must have opposing sea units or air units battle them, land units needing to stay back. (I will add something, aerial units can do a similar thing using mountains).

Anyway, these things all are for the quicker battles, and from what I've played, those are far more common than the ones where both sides make it to the top of the tech tree and there are griffin and dragon wars.

Stilll, we should at least try it out.

I haven't even payed any attention to all the add-ons they have been doing. I have had trouble playing WC3 for months. I would get 3-5 minutes into a game and it would crash, claiming that the game wrote into somebody else's memory and had to be terminated. Turns out that this problem, along with a lot of other annoying seemingly random problems, were all due to my computer drastically overheating. When I built it, I used the stock CPU cooler. This ran a little hot, but seemed to work fine. Well, over the months it became completely clogged with dust, and as a result the CPU would heat up to 70 C and turn itself off. That's a nice built in saftey feature to prevent chip burnination, but I had no clue this was happening. Anyway, now I bought a new CPU cooler (a Zalman CNPS7000A-Cu), installed it, and it runs beautifully. It's very quiet and my CPU now runs at 45 C. The motherboard is down to 27. Both are lower than ever before.

Anyway, all this to say that now I finished the Human campaign and am halfway through the Undead. I hate playing as them, but the sooner I finish the sooner I can get to the Night Elves! So it's cool to see that when I someday finish all the great stuff in WC3, and Frozen Throne, there will still be more to enjoy. If I get that far before WoW takes over...

Wanna know what I hate? I'm best with undead!

I'm best with NE, which is my favorite race... :) Followed (in order of how I like them and how good I am) by Humans, Undead, and Orcs. I'm awful with them.

Sea... um, DJ, we're talking about WC3 here. Air units are pretty low on the tech tree. Probably no higher than sea would be. So while that was definitely true in War2, it doesn't work in War3.

Defendability? Air is the same. You just have to defend on more sides...

As for crossing, it's called Goblin Zepellins. :)

The funny thing is, I'd love for WC3 to have sea units and more maps that have sea. But when I really look at it I see better and better why Blizzard mostly left them out. They have limited uses and don't really have a place in a game with as much air units as WC3. It'd be nice to see some, but it really would just be unit clutter with a bunch of not too useful units. It just doesn't make much sense for Blizzard to do anything new with sea. Just make a map with seaports and lots of water. :)

Oh, and while I beat WC3, I never finished TFT... I never even finished the first campaign (NE). I got bored with how easy it was. Then I bumped up the difficulty to hard and it played like Starcraft. Or, more appropriately, Brood War. That is, really hard. So I didn't beat the mission. :)

Of course, I never beat BW either... I never beat the last Protoss mission without cheating and got to mission 7 or 8 in Zerg (beat Terran). It gets really hard and I never finished... never beat Human 14 in WC2 either (quit Orc campaign in mission 12 or 13). BtDP, of course, was just too hard. TFT (Normal difficulty) was the opposite. :)

I haven't read through this thread, but just thought I'd add that I'm currently playing through Frozen Throne, and I'm really enjoying all the additions.

I'm just onto the first mission with Arthus, but it's SO DAMNED HARD. And I refuse to play it on Normal difficulty. Ehhhhe.... :) Continue on.

Sylvanas is a sexy beast or atleast was ,But the Banshees are helpful on that level except I have not played in a long time I hear the possesion ability has been raped to hell..

I really, REALLY should have played all of RoC and TFT in Hard. Normal has almost zero challenge, except for a couple of missions, while Hard is about as hard as previous games in the series. Live and learn I guess...

Yah, the game is quite challenging on Hard. That mission in particular is difficult because you're controlling three groups of people. It's touch enough in the missions where you have 2 seperate groups. And I only just recently discovered the Possession ability, not to mention I only just realized that the necromancers' Raise Dead ability could be put on autocast, so next time I try it, it should be quite easy. I was just building those two groups up to defend whilst I attacked with Arthas' group and I was getting well raped.

If I ever get a home internet connection again I'll gladly give some of you guys a game one day.

The hardest mission by far in Normal was the final Undead mission. Evil, evil level... but most of the rest (including all of TFT so far) is a pushover.

I'm best with NE, which is my favorite race... :) Followed (in order of how I like them and how good I am) by Humans, Undead, and Orcs. I'm awful with them.

Sea... um, DJ, we're talking about WC3 here. Air units are pretty low on the tech tree. Probably no higher than sea would be. So while that was definitely true in War2, it doesn't work in War3.

Defendability? Air is the same. You just have to defend on more sides...

As for crossing, it's called Goblin Zepellins. :)

The funny thing is, I'd love for WC3 to have sea units and more maps that have sea. But when I really look at it I see better and better why Blizzard mostly left them out. They have limited uses and don't really have a place in a game with as much air units as WC3. It'd be nice to see some, but it really would just be unit clutter with a bunch of not too useful units. It just doesn't make much sense for Blizzard to do anything new with sea. Just make a map with seaports and lots of water. :)

Oh, and while I beat WC3, I never finished TFT... I never even finished the first campaign (NE). I got bored with how easy it was. Then I bumped up the difficulty to hard and it played like Starcraft. Or, more appropriately, Brood War. That is, really hard. So I didn't beat the mission. :)

Of course, I never beat BW either... I never beat the last Protoss mission without cheating and got to mission 7 or 8 in Zerg (beat Terran). It gets really hard and I never finished... never beat Human 14 in WC2 either (quit Orc campaign in mission 12 or 13). BtDP, of course, was just too hard. TFT (Normal difficulty) was the opposite. :)

The navy today is primarily focussed on shiping supplies and Aircraft carriers, Of course you need to defend them with submarines,frigets, and cruisers.The fact is airplanes cannot haul large amounts of supplies and troops like ships can.

Personally I like naval ship battles and I think the more diversity in gameplay exist the more fresher and longer lasting the game will last. Starcraft is unique because unlike warcraft it is futuristic and in a way there is naval battles just of a different breed instead of water you have space. Sea faring and Space faring are more simular then you realize.They never rid of it they just changed its nature and evolved it in SC.

If you have vast amounts of water having mobible anti air batteries floating around could help defend yourself. If you made the naval units anti air focused their worth would increase. You got battlecruisers which are like floating fortresses with powerful siege capabilities you can soften up and drive the enemy further in land , Allowing you and your ground forces to secure the beach. You will have air forces to harrase and scatter them but the navy is there as a mobile wall to block the enemy to prevent him from escaping.Air forces can be taken down by ground forces and other air forces having a 3rd avenue to concider spices it up more.

The have experimented with Amphibious units like the turtles that can be bought as merc, The Naga sea witch was way more deadly when she could travel in deep water way before air even exist.

Goblin zepplins are completely unrealistic they move to fast and maneuver like flys, To me they carry more then they logically should. If you made a level for sea battles Zeps should be kept out of it , in War2 they were scouts not transports.

Now, as for your suggestion of some sort of magic circle or some sort of event square where you can build a shipyard, but nowhere else, that's interesting... Simply claiming existing shipyards would be easier I think though....

I thought of it but my idea is more practical, First of all its retarded that they could just walk in and switch ownership pump ships from the very structure your trying to secure. with my idea you could be abled to destroy it and neutralize it or stall production , Plus you would be abled to add on to it and make race specific units.

Were is the customization and stamp on it? Every shipyard would look the same does it make sense for the Undead to hire Goblins to build their ships? They would kill the Goblins and make them their slaves and prevent them from building for their enemies as well as transforming the ships into their image of death. The Goblin shipyard should be the Orc one, Sure the Goblins are not formaly part of the horde but Gazlowe the goblin cheif is a freind of Thrall as seen in the Orc bonus campaigns Gazlow engineered the underground water system for ogrimar since unlike the humans the orcs are not scientific masters the trolls do experiement with it but not nearly as crafty as the Goblins.

Personally I like naval ship battles and I think the more diversity in gameplay exist the more fresher and longer lasting the game will last. Starcraft is unique because unlike warcraft it is futuristic and in a way there is naval battles just of a different breed instead of water you have space. Sea faring and Space faring are more simular then you realize.They never rid of it they just changed its nature and evolved it in SC.

Uh, ASM, that was exactly my point! SC and WC3 greatly expanded their air units to replace the sea ones!


The navy today is primarily focussed on shiping supplies and Aircraft carriers, Of course you need to defend them with submarines,frigets, and cruisers.The fact is airplanes cannot haul large amounts of supplies and troops like ships can.

Sea navies nowdays exist for fewer reasons than before... they are air platforms, missile launch sites, and they do coastal patrol. That's about it.

And WC3 air units don't need to land so that one is pointless. But most of the WC3 air units are the kind that could land anywhere (unlike, say, a modern-day plane), so it probably wouldn't matter either way...


Goblin zepplins are completely unrealistic they move to fast and maneuver like flys, To me they carry more then they logically should. If you made a level for sea battles Zeps should be kept out of it , in War2 they were scouts not transports.

The most unrealistic thing is that they can hold more than a couple of units. They shouldn't be able to carry mechanical or larger units and should only be able to hold a couple of infantry... that would be sea's advantage, much larger transports. But as it is, sea would really not have a niche here. They'd need to massively change the zepellins.

Hmm, here's an interesting idea, "rest" for air units...

This is just me thinking of things off the top of my head, not a serious suggestion mind you.

What if air units had to rest every now and then? They would have a sort of "flying bar" so if they are in the air too long, they are forced to land. Over mountains, they can still land, but over water, they will drown or something. Sea units would have a sort of carrier that air units could land on though. This one change alone would be VERY drastic though :D. That's why I'm just tossing it out there. If it sounds even the least bit interesting, tell me and I might just make a map to test it out.

While some other strategy games (think Command & Conquer) have air units that have to retun to their bases after strikes (fighters go out, attack, and return...), Blizz has always done air quite unrealistically -- they just hover all the time. No swooping and diving and flying around like a real flying unit would, just hover and move... it's a whole lot easier to design, but it's a lot less realistic.

agreed, but I'm just thinking they land right on their own shadow, recovering like 4 times the speed they loose the energy. I dunno, it's just a thought. It would allow those without nets or flyer targetters to wait out the attacking unit so they could strike it when it lands...

That would be a major pain to manage, though...

Yeah, I was just humoring it really...

I would like to see Blizz's next RTS have accurate air unit movement, though. Yeah, it'd totally change how they work, but it'd be more realistic and they could make it pretty fun as well...

They beat Dune 2 though. In that old game, the air units couldn't even be controlled. They ran on auto, and as such would SCREW you!

Here's a hint, NEVER build an ornithopter unless you WANT to attack the enemy!

Westwood improved them over time, though. I thought they worked great in Red Alert 2.

My map is nearing completion, with a healthy number of creeps and so on. I placed a goblin observatory on an island, so ya can't get airships until you have at least taken to the sea. Now, the deal is this map does prevent any sort of rushing due to the requirements of a shipyard. I'm still trying to set up tech requirements for the shipyards (they keep failing, I'll spare the details). I already customized it every other way (making the units constructable instead of buyable), except there's no under construction animation (as one might have expected anyway actually), so it looks complete straight from the start. I might actually substitute some other building's construction animation, unless it looks way too apparent... (If only I had one of those super CGI suites so I could use Blizzard's plugins and make the model on my own, at least it would be experience in the process...)

As of yet, everything I need to do is already built in as properties of the objects, so not a bit of code has been needed yet.

One last thing. This map will be 2-4 players, with one player in each corner. When I say I'm almost done, I mean I'm almost done with one corner. What I am about to look into, and I hope it's possible, is being able to copy and paste (already know I can do that, I've done it), and more importantly, ROTATE a selection. I really hope I can rotate any selection I paste so that I can just copy and paste this corner to finish the job. (Oh yes, there's a nice middle island with a fountain of mana and health, guarded by dragons. Hmm, I should go ahead and allow ships to sail between these two fountains in a small stream...)

Anyway, ABF, any suggestions here? Basically, there's a few buildings on your "mainland", but just about everything else is on islands across the map. Should I include Tingle to make a sea chart or two? :D

Suggestions? I'd really need to see it... but I have never used the War3 map editor so I might be of limited help. :)

Ｊｕｓｔ　ｗａｎｔｅｄ　ｔｏ　ｓａｙ　ｔｈａｔ　Ｉ　ｐａｓｓｅｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｍｉｓｓｉｏｎ　Ｉ　ｗａｓ　ｕｐ　ｔｏ．　Ｗｏｗ，　ｉｔ　ｗａｓ　ｓｕｒｐｒｉｓｉｎｇｌｙ　ｅａｓｙ．　Ｊｕｓｔ　ｕｓｅ　ｔｈｅ　Ｂａｎｓｈｅｅｓ　ｔｏ　ｐｏｓｓｅｓｓ　ｔｈｅ　ｍｏｓｔ　ｐｏｗｅｒｆｕｌ　Ｍｉｌｉｔｉａ　Ｃａｐｔａｉｎｓ　（ｔｈｅ　ｓｐｅａｒ　ｔｈｒｏｗｅｒｓ　ｆｏｒ　ｐｏｗｅｒ／ｈｅａｌｔｈ　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｋｎｉｇｈｔｓ　ｆｏｒ　ｔｈｅｉｒ　ｈｅａｌｉｎｇ　ａｂｉｌｉｔｙ）　ａｎｄ　ｔａｋｅ　ｏｕｔ　ａｌｌ　ｔｈｅ　ｃａｍｐｓ　ｏｎ　ｔｈａｔ　ｓｉｄｅ．　Ｈａｖｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｏｔｈｅｒ　ｔｗｏ　ｇｒｏｕｐｓ　ｓｉｍｐｌｙ　ｄｅｆｅｎｇｉｎｇ　ｔｈｅｉｒ　ｅｘｉｔ　ｐｏｉｎｔｓ．　Ａｆｔｅｒ　Ｉ　ｔｏｏｋ　ａｌｌ　ｔｈｅ　ｃａｍｐｓ　ｏｕｔ　ｏｎ　Ｓｙｌｖａｎａｓ　ａｒｅａ，　Ｉ　ｒｕｓｈｅｄ　ｔｈｅ　ｍａｉｎ　ａｒｅａ　ｗｉｔｈ　ｈｅｒ　ｅｎｔｉｒｅ　ｆｏｒｃｅ．　Ｔｈｉｓ　ｗａｓ　ｔｒｉｃｋｙ，　ｂｕｔ　ｍａｄｅ　ｍｕｃｈ　ｅａｓｉｅｒ　ｂｙ　ｔｈｅ　ｆａｃｔ　ｔｈａｔ　Ｉ　ｒａｎ　Ａｒｔｈａｓ　ｉｎｔｏ　ｔｈｅ　ｂａｔｔｌｅ　ａｓ　ｗｅｌｌ　（ｌｅａｖｉｎｇ　ａｌｌ　ｔｈｅ　ｏｇｒｅｓ　ｂａｃｋ　ａｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｅｘｉｔ　ｔｏ　ｓｔｏｐ　ｔｈｅ　ｈｕｍａｎ　ｒｅｆｕｇｅｅｓ　ｆｒｏｍ　ｅｓｃａｐｉｎｇ）　ｔｏｏｋ　ｏｕｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｔｈｒｅｅ　ｐａｌａｄｉｎｓ　ａｎｄ　ｔｈｅｉｒ　ｗｈｏｌｅ　ｂａｓｅ　ａｎｄ　ａｆｔｅｒ　ｔｈａｔ　ｉｔ　ｗａｓ　ｓｉｍｐｌｅ．

ＤＪ：　Ｙｏｕ　ｂｕｉｌｄ　Ｏｒｎｉｔｈｏｐｔｅｒｓ　ｂｅｃａｕｓｅ　ｔｈｅｙｒｅ　ｇｒｅａｔ　ｄｕｒｉｎｇ　ａ　ｆｕｌｌ　ｏｎ　ａｓｓａｕｌｔ　ｏｆ　ｔｈｅ　ｂａｓｅ，　ｂｕｔ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｅｒｅ　ＴＨＥ　ｂｅｓｔ　ｗａｙ　ｏｆ　ｄｉｓｃｏｖｅｒｉｎｇ　ｗｈｅｒｅ　ｔｈｅ　ｅｎｅｍｉｅｓ　ｂａｓｅ　ｗａｓ，　ａｎｄ　ｍｏｒｅ　ｉｍｐｏｒｔａｎｔｌｙ，　ｗｈｅｒｅ　ｔｈｅｉｒ　ｄｅｆｅｎｓｅ　ｔｕｒｒｅｔｓ　ｗｅｒｅ　（ａｓ　ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ｉｎｓｔｉｎｃｔｉｖｅｌｙ　ｓｈｏｏｔ　ａｔ　ｔｈｅ　ｏｒｎｉｔｈｏｐｅｒｓ　ｅｘｐｏｓｉｎｇ　ｔｈｅｍ　ｏｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｒａｄａｒ　ｍａｐ）．　Ｔｈｅｙ　ｗｏｕｌｄ　ａｌｓｏ　ｅｘｐｏｓｅ　ｒｏｃｋｅｔ　ｔａｎｋｓ　ａｎｄ　ｓｕｃｈ．　Ｗａｓ　ｎｅａｔ．　［ｉ］＊ｌｏｖｅｓ　Ｄｕｎｅ　２＊［／ｉ］

The best part of Aliens II is seeing you get eaten and then blown up.

Sylvanas is a bitch then again so is Arthas , I wonder if Ashara has big boobs too?

I believe there will be a 2nd exspansion or atleast suspect, The fact they are releasing new shit on the game suggest they are still interested in it and still have some things left to do.

Personally why make a full sequeil? Its not neccesarry ! Its cheaper and faster and better to add a another exspasnion that in a way is almost warcraft IV.

I want to see Queen Ashara and the Naga emerge as a full race and of course bent on conquering Kalimdor , Id also like to see the wars between the scourge and forsaken, The plotting of Kil'jeaden and the Burning Legion, Maybe even the old gods showing up since the firelord has appeared its possible. I want to see whats gonna happen to the Blood Elves and Ilidan, Id like to see either the old lossed heroes of warcraft IIX coming back or having a decendant survivor of that expedition appearing maybe Khadgar and Alleria having a kid? Also Id like to see deathwings continued struggle to take over the world masquerading as Lord Prestor of Stormwind. Finally have the Gnomes join in for once Id like to see a Gnomish hero and possibily some units.

Alright, my little experimental map is done. First thing I found out was that there just aren't enough icon spaces to fit in the shipyard for any worker's construction... This alone is annoying, but there are some workarounds of course.

One, I could just remove one of the buildings from the build list.

Voice: WRONG! UNACCEPTABLE!

Two, I could make a second worker unit for each race that builds a shipyard instead of some building, but is otherwise the same. (That's rather awkward.)

Three, I could make a custom interface with the cancel button sitting outside the normal area (it would like sorta like the menu button). That's a lot of work just to get this experiment done though. I might try that later.

Four, I could just tell you what letter is used to build a shipyard and so instead of being able to click on a button, one would have to go into build, hit that hotkey, and then they would build it. That's also awkward...

Anyway, in the end I decided for option 2. Seemed the best way to go aside from interface altering, which would have taken a while.

Now anyway, I ended up making all the shipyards act the same. They each have their own race's special abilities. That is, except for the undead's. For the sake of balance, I had to both make it buildable without blight, and disable it's ability to create blight. It won't dispell blight either by the way :D.

All the ships will construct rather than be buyable. All their stats are the same. I also nerfed up the HP level for the transport ships. They can now actually be destroyed in a battle before they hit land if they aren't defended.

I tried to add in a good amount of creeps without overdoing it, but I'm not sure if I got the balance right... Yes, you can expect some horrible sea monsters, so be prepaired before setting out. I put a little stream from the ocean straight up to almost touching the base, making setting out convinient (ya better guard that though...). There are still goblin labs, but they are on some islands in the sea, so you'll still need to make a shipyard before getting to get an airship.

About the shipyard itself. All shipyards have the same prerequisite. You need a second tier command center. (Keep for humans for example.) Maybe this isn't such a hot idea, but I'll at least try it out.

Keep in mind this map is a VERY small file. This is counting all the very specific height adjustments and everything. All things considered, there's NO reason custom maps aren't possible with a small file size in the next GCN F-Zero!

Uh oh, seems the map files just aren't acceptable to be attached :D. Oh well, anyone that wants to get it can just play against me on battle.net later on.

DJ, zip the file and attach it. Simple. :)



Two, I could make a second worker unit for each race that builds a shipyard instead of some building, but is otherwise the same. (That's rather awkward.)

Three, I could make a custom interface with the cancel button sitting outside the normal area (it would like sorta like the menu button). That's a lot of work just to get this experiment done though. I might try that later.

Four, I could just tell you what letter is used to build a shipyard and so instead of being able to click on a button, one would have to go into build, hit that hotkey, and then they would build it. That's also awkward...

Anyway, in the end I decided for option 2. Seemed the best way to go aside from interface altering, which would have taken a while.

Complex UMS maps often do custom button layouts, adding buttons for new functions and stuff... I'm sure it's hard, but if you put in the work you could probably fit it in to the workers' interface somewhere. :)

I'm sure I could. I could either add scrolling ability (complicated), so any number of buttons could be added, or just map the cancel button somewhere else, remove the cancel button from the main selection thing, and then there would be room for the one structure I'm wanting to add.

Upon testing the map a bit last night, I came across a grand total of 2 issues (aside from minor errors involving missing tags in the strings to get certain letters to be yellow and such). One, two of the races DO have an extra slot for the shipyard. Night Elves and Orcs have the room, so I junked the "Sea Wisp" and "Naval Peon" units. Humans and Undead still have their custom units of stupidity though :D.

Second, the computer AI doesn't even try to build shipyards. The AI design does easily allow me to add that in, EXCEPT that altering AI just creates a new AI script from scratch and I can't actually load up the default AI so I have a good sample to work with. Honestly, I need the default loaded up so I can see exactly what they have going there so I only make a few alterations from the norm. Oh well, I won't be playing against AI anyway :D. (As it is, so you know, the various races just do what they normally do until it's time to attack someone, then they just run to the edge of their island and get stuck :D, yes they are NOT smart enough to just send waves of flyers at least :D. Oh well...., for the best since by then my armada is decently sized enough to easily trash any air force flying by :D.

So then, this place DOES support uploading ZIP files eh? Alright then. Place this in your "download" folder ABF, though you probably already figured that out :D. Yeah, it does actually show that in the list, I just didn't think it allowed that for some reason...

One other thing ABF, could you link me to one of those maps with a custom interface? It'd make it quicker if I could see how others altered it and base my alterations around that.

So then, this place DOES support uploading ZIP files eh? Alright then. Place this in your "download" folder ABF, though you probably already figured that out . Yeah, it does actually show that in the list, I just didn't think it allowed that for some reason...


Anywhere inside your 'maps' folder works, DJ, I think... or just about... :)

One other thing ABF, could you link me to one of those maps with a custom interface? It'd make it quicker if I could see how others altered it and base my alterations around that.

Custom games are one of the best parts of WC3, you should play them! :)

I've played a lot of custom games, just no custom interface games, and I was asking you to link me to one so I could study it!

www.rtsgames.com/dota

Ya know, when I said custom interface, I kinda meant the entire interface area looks totally different type of thing... You know, making it so the whole thing has the art style of the zerg control interface, as well as the menu buttons and such being like in there like the zerg... Seen anything like that?

Ah. Seen one or two of those... Night of the Dead is all black. Though I don't think that one has a website. One other too, but I forget what it was...

DJ, Bleakstare and I just played a game on the map... he said that some of the tech tree was "messed up" (wind riders on tier 3 like RoC, not 2 like TFT). It was an annoying game, really. He built only air units and kept attacking and running from my base... really annoying and not too fun when he does that but a water map makes it worse because it's even hard to just attack his base -- not as easy to get back if he attacks! Air units are a problem if people use that strat... makes water useless...

Anyway, otherwise, Bleakstare mainly said that he wished the map was smaller and/or that the ships were faster, because 'it took too long to get troops across the map'... remember, he likes faster-paced games, and this map as it is designed definitely does not work with that. Unless you go all air, which makes for really annoying games for the other player... and the point of the map is water, not air! :)

Ah yes, all valid complaints. I'll see what I can do about that.

Meanwhile, here's an updated version. First thing's first, as you had pointed out, the tech tree is "old". I have found out that, in order to make sure older custom maps work, by default all custom maps that aren't straight melee will use the first version of whatever game they are based on (either version 1 for ROC maps or version 1.7 for TFT maps). So, I found the right option and told it to "use latest patch", so now all the stats, including tech tree, SHOULD reflect the latest patch data (except of course for custom modifications). If not, just tell me.

Other than that, I spent a long time finding a way to reduce the workers to just one for undead and human. It turns out it is NOT possible to actually make an additional build icon with it's own data, or just put a build icon for whatever on the main ability menu for a unit. That sucks, but I found the next best thing. I just gave the peasents and acolytes a morph command. They can now change the structures they can build instantly just by pressing the new button I was able to give them. I also made sure they could do everything they could as the previous unit. The only tricky part was making sure the morphed peasents could become militia. It took a while, but I managed to get both normal peasents and the "sailor" morphed version to become militia and revert to whatever they were before militia morphing.

Also, I took your complaint about not being able to tell which is which in mind, so when morphed into shipyard workers, the units are now tinted blue.

(All this, and not a bit of programming, thanks for powerful property manipulation Blizzard!)

Anyway, the latest version is attached here. Just overwrite the previous file okay? (And make sure you are the one who hosts the game if you play Bleakstare again, so his is updated instead of yours being downgraded :D.)

Okay then, that in mind, the very next thing I think I'll do is boost the movement speed of all ships by a decent amount. I will say the map IS the largest possible format. I ended up doing that because it was the only way to fit a decent amount of sea in there. To make it so air forces can't just murder you, I think I'll vastly increase the warship's attack power, or speed, or something, so they can take actually somewhat overpower air forces. The weakness will be that they can't go on land to murder someone's base of course :D, but having a few battleships during a battle on the shore will be helpful I think :). Also, I will be incorporating researched upgrades for ships, being the only units that are exactly the same throughout a match is very bad...

Anyway, for now you can test it with him or with me when I'm on later.

Other than that, I spent a long time finding a way to reduce the workers to just one for undead and human. It turns out it is NOT possible to actually make an additional build icon with it's own data, or just put a build icon for whatever on the main ability menu for a unit. That sucks, but I found the next best thing. I just gave the peasents and acolytes a morph command. They can now change the structures they can build instantly just by pressing the new button I was able to give them. I also made sure they could do everything they could as the previous unit. The only tricky part was making sure the morphed peasents could become militia. It took a while, but I managed to get both normal peasents and the "sailor" morphed version to become militia and revert to whatever they were before militia morphing.

Also, I took your complaint about not being able to tell which is which in mind, so when morphed into shipyard workers, the units are now tinted blue.

(All this, and not a bit of programming, thanks for powerful property manipulation Blizzard!)

I would highly recommend having it so that while in "Sailor" mode the worker can only make shipyards -- it is really confusing to have a menu full of the same buildings! That would definitely help the map.



Okay then, that in mind, the very next thing I think I'll do is boost the movement speed of all ships by a decent amount. I will say the map IS the largest possible format. I ended up doing that because it was the only way to fit a decent amount of sea in there. To make it so air forces can't just murder you, I think I'll vastly increase the warship's attack power, or speed, or something, so they can take actually somewhat overpower air forces. The weakness will be that they can't go on land to murder someone's base of course , but having a few battleships during a battle on the shore will be helpful I think . Also, I will be incorporating researched upgrades for ships, being the only units that are exactly the same throughout a match is very bad...

The problem is that the sea is HUGE. It's tough to find enemy fleets in that map... and bigger sight ranges really isn't realistic. But in War2 you'd sometimes run into enemy fleets... in this map that is harder because of the very large size. And that means that air units can get into your base easily. And remember -- your base isn't right on the ocean. Most of it isn't within range of the sea so boosting sea units vs air doesn't fix it really... he just flies into the corner and strikes in and out, running when you attack... okay, it'd help some. But the main problem is on land, and with a map like this where the bases are so far from the sea (even the island expos are too far for battleships to shoot, generally!)...

I was thinking of that for the "sailor" units actually, but I wanted to make it so that the alternate form had as many capabilities as possible so that one would only need to switch from one to the other to build either the shipyard or the shop.

However, if you really think it's too complicated, I may just go ahead and make it so you can only build the shipyard in sailor form...

Now the second thing you mentioned I was actually going to talk about. In testing things, the ships actually already move faster than zepplins as is, so it really is just the massive map size that's making things like this.

I could shrink it down, but drawing out the map was the part that took the longest, and a simple shrink that maintains everything would be tough... I'd really just have to make a whole new map from scratch. I may just do that, but for now it's just a matter of making this oversized map work. The island expos were really designed to be too far from the sea to be struck by ships, but I may go ahead and change that. The ships do need to get a chance to get closer to those I think...

I've already got the basic upgrade support added, special upgrades that are race specific are something I'm thinking of, but that'll come later. Messing with the attack stats beyond that isn't something I want to do now after all. The upgrades should do that well enough for now I think... Transports also got their HP lowered to 500.

As far as the map goes, what do you think I should do? I submit placing a large amount of mountains on the map and making those unpassable regions, thus forcing even the flyers to go on certain paths.

I also think perhaps adding more water inlets would help naval forces.

I was thinking of that for the "sailor" units actually, but I wanted to make it so that the alternate form had as many capabilities as possible so that one would only need to switch from one to the other to build either the shipyard or the shop.

However, if you really think it's too complicated, I may just go ahead and make it so you can only build the shipyard in sailor form...

If you build them as a seperate unit, I could understand it, I guess. Though it'd still be complex. But if you can transform back and forth... maybe have the shipyard and a couple of other basic buildings? Or just the shipyard. But get rid of most of them, it makes it confusing...


I could shrink it down, but drawing out the map was the part that took the longest, and a simple shrink that maintains everything would be tough... I'd really just have to make a whole new map from scratch. I may just do that, but for now it's just a matter of making this oversized map work. The island expos were really designed to be too far from the sea to be struck by ships, but I may go ahead and change that. The ships do need to get a chance to get closer to those I think...

Yes, I think that the ships SHOULD be able to bombard at least parts of the bases. Sea levels where the ships can't really get near the land mean that ships are just good for transport... so you have less need for ships, really, and all you really have to do is go to get a goblin zepellin. But if your fleet can actually attack their bases... You can attack one part (the expos on your start island), I believe. But not much else... and that really IS bad, if you want ships used a lot.

And yeah, for a smaller one I would also recommend just making another map (if what you did to modify this one isn't too hard, or if you can copy it and just erase the terrain and stuff and resize it? Or can you not do that?). Having a larger one too is fine, I think.

I've already got the basic upgrade support added, special upgrades that are race specific are something I'm thinking of, but that'll come later. Messing with the attack stats beyond that isn't something I want to do now after all. The upgrades should do that well enough for now I think... Transports also got their HP lowered to 500.

And maybe think about building requirements? I mean the battleships are pretty good... should you get all three kinds of ships immediately? And yeah, upgrades or special abilities would be cool. If you can do that that is...


As far as the map goes, what do you think I should do? I submit placing a large amount of mountains on the map and making those unpassable regions, thus forcing even the flyers to go on certain paths.

I also think perhaps adding more water inlets would help naval forces.

Can't flyers fly anywhere? Umm.. I don't know... yes, more water inlets is definitely one thing. But short of actually changing the unit stats or map size I don't know what else can be done, really...

Yes, there's region control and one setting for regions is to make it totally unpassable. Regions aren't a land type, it's a special editor highlight for any sort of terrain that gives it special properties. It's what they likely used for certain levels where they wanted two groups you controlled at the same time COMPLETELY cut off from each other.

Ya know, I was ALMOST about to make it so you had to build at least that race's lumber yard, or like whatever is closest to a blacksmith for the races, in order to build battleships... I decided to wait on that though. I will deal with that while dealing with custom upgrades.

Here's my thoughts on custom upgrades that are race specific. For humans, the range upgrade that riflemen get should apply to both ships I think. For orcs, the upgrade that sets the ground it hits on fire would be good for the juggernaught (maybe both at first). Night Elves I think I'll allow the battleship to be upgraded to those glaives. Fortunatly, the attack animation can be changed to whatever, so I can also make the upgrade look good. Undead can get the meat wagon style disease cloud upgrade for the battleship, similar to what the orcs get. These are just to start, eventually I might end up giving each race their very own special abilities. For example, upon further examination, the transports for undead and orcs really have NO difference except what I imagined. Same model from all I can see. I might just end up making one of the attack ships also the transport for undead, or orc, whichever, just to see how that goes.

Oh yes, as far as making a smaller map, while I CAN copy and paste things, I can't actually shrink a selection. The shrink would have to be able to tell exactly what aspects I want to keep and what stuff to get rid of for the shrink to work, and I suppose they just couldn't do that very well. Think of image scaling and how lots of aspects can be lost there since it just can't figure out what we humans consider important. I'll just make a totally new map from scratch with a whole different look for my second water map. I'll just import the object data.