Confused Stormtrooper.

Years ago, when RotJ was on VHS, and I was obsessed with Star Wars and I had a lot of time, I noticed that when the trap is sprung on Endor, and Han, Leia and the strike team are being escorted out of the shield room, you'll see outside a legion of stormtroopers and a few AT-STs. If you look more careful, you'll see four or five more Rebel commandos, with their hands on their heads outside, surrendering. BUT if you look even more carefully, next to the commandos, you'll see a man in stormtrooper armor, without his helmet on, and his hands in the surrendering position.

That's all. Just wanted to point that out.

I wonder if it was a scrapped plot idea; he might've been an undercover Rebel or something.

--Barry.

Hmm...I never noticed that before. I'll have to bust out my SW tapes and have a look at that scene.

Oh--well, to be easier for you, it's on the DVDs too.

OB1 is the biggest Star Wars nerd this side of the Outer Rim Territories; he must know something about this mystery...

...


http://tcforums.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=996&stc=1

Maybe he just had his helmet off. It's called ambiance.

Seriously I don't know. I don't really pick out those little things in Star Wars like everyone else does. I just sit back and enjoy them.

No, it's not just (sic) ambiance. He is standing there next to the surrendered Rebels, sans helmet, with his hands clasped atop his head. It must've been a piece of the story that they removed; an insider Rebel, or a defecting Imperial who was captured, etc.

No, it's not just (sic) ambiance. He is standing there next to the surrendered Rebels, sans helmet, with his hands clasped atop his head. It must've been a piece of the story that they removed; an insider Rebel, or a defecting Imperial who was captured, etc.

He is that speedbike bike guy who got captured remeber? When the ewok snatched a bike and drove off luring the imperial patrol squad away leaving one dude behind, Han Solo taped his shoulder and then he chased Han solo but then he got surrounded by rebel troopers hiding on the side of the building
pointing blasters at him . Now why would he be still holding his hands up? Maybe since the imperials knew the rebels like to knockout and take the uniforms of their men and pose as imperials, That trooper was afraid his own people would shoot him if he didnt put his hands up like the rebels did.

Hey post a screencap.

What on earth does (sic) mean anyway? I see it all over, and all I can gather is it means you are sickened by something.



Edit: What the heck was that? If I wanted to see what you thought, I'd unblock you. Most uncool.

I don't know how to snap a shot via DVD on the computer, or else I would.


Don't be ridiculous; its not the speeder stormtrooper! Claiming that the Rebels captured him, and the Imperials kept him at bay just in case is a ridiculous stretch. Why would they remove his helmet---? And if Episode II has taught us anything, its that stormtroopers are clones; thus, since he's not wearing a helmet, they should easily be able to tell whether or not he's an Imp. The moviemakers wouldn't have deliberately gone through so much trouble to suggest that, and then only just barely show it for a split second in one shot. I still say its a missing clue to a greater plot.

Perhaps you are overreacting. I mean really, so one of the surrendering guys has his helmet off. You can't see how that might just happen in the real world of lasers you can see and jedi force powers?

Hey could someone tell DJ to check her post that I edited? :D

I don't know how to snap a shot via DVD on the computer, or else I would.


Don't be ridiculous; its not the speeder stormtrooper! Claiming that the Rebels captured him, and the Imperials kept him at bay just in case is a ridiculous stretch. Why would they remove his helmet---? And if Episode II has taught us anything, its that stormtroopers are clones; thus, since he's not wearing a helmet, they should easily be able to tell whether or not he's an Imp. The moviemakers wouldn't have deliberately gone through so much trouble to suggest that, and then only just barely show it for a split second in one shot. I still say its a missing clue to a greater plot.

We dont know if stormtroopers are all clones in the old trilogy, Afterall Lucas never used the voice of Jango Fett for them like he did for Boba Fett in the dvds.Maybe after the clonewar and the empire was founded he started to recruit regular none clone soldiers, After all It would be faster then waiting another 10 years to grow more.Notice all the imperial starship crew officers are not clones why would Palpatine do that? Since Clones are more obedient and could learn quickly why do that? The Old republic never had a military untill the Clone wars how did these highranking space navy officers come from?So I assume they recruited some nonclones.

If you have seen very many war movies you might notice in alot of cases the Helmet is removed from captured enemy soliders, so I guess they can more easily knock him out Or maybe he was a rebel in a trooper suite?( I doubt it)

I'll have to see ROTJ again ...

Another thing is to see the commentary on the dvd.

I don't know how to snap a shot via DVD on the computer, or else I would.



Well if you can play dvds on your computer then all you have to do is press the Print Screen button when the scene you want comes up. Then open up photoshop or even paint and press control+v, or right click and paste. Print screen copies the entire screen.

Right... while some of the Stormtroopers might be clones, I am somewhat doubtful. They were in the Clone Wars and afterwards, but would those same guys still be stormtroopers twenty years later? So what about more clones, you ask? After the Clone Wars cloning was greatly restricted and even the Empire would have to hide it so they probably couldn't do it on a massive scale like that... most of the Stormtroopers in the original series are almost certainly (brainwashed) recruits, I think.

Maybe Palpatine was afriad they would sell clone armies to his enemies so he destroyed the planet also to hide the truth? Figured he could just recruit troops now and keep whatever he had left.

Maybe the trade federation droid forces discoverd were the clones were being grown and blew up the planet in retaliation for destroying their factories, Its only a matter of time before those vice roys and sepratist ponderd on were a Clone army could be produced, Camino was known for its cloning and genetic engineering maybe they figured it out?Plus they could have had spies within the old republic.

Notice all the imperial starship crew officers are not clones why would Palpatine do that?

Well obviously there will always be some evil people who want to join the badguys. All of the officers, and technical crew are such people. The grunts, however, are the ones who would need to be clones. When it comes to doing evil, immoral, dangerous work they'd have to be clones. And there voices are almost, so far as I can tell, all the same. And they have numbers instead of names or ranks. Furthermore, when Luke walks into Leia's cell in ANH, she reacts "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?", suggesting that they're all the same height.

Don't get me wrong, I hope I'm wrong; I think the notion of clones serving the Empire ruins a lot of it. It isn't as great a feeling to have blown up a ship full of mindless robot-like clones, as it is to blow up a ship full of evil bad guys who want to kill you.

Back to the point--come on, you think it was a blooper? SOMEONE told that stormtrooper extra to take off his helmet and pose with his hands up. He didn't just arbitrarily choose to do it while they were shooting.

Well obviously there will always be some evil people who want to join the badguys. All of the officers, and technical crew are such people. The grunts, however, are the ones who would need to be clones. When it comes to doing evil, immoral, dangerous work they'd have to be clones. And there voices are almost, so far as I can tell, all the same. And they have numbers instead of names or ranks. Furthermore, when Luke walks into Leia's cell in ANH, she reacts "aren't you a little short for a stormtrooper?", suggesting that they're all the same height.

No. Not at all. First. Remember, the Empire didn't take over the Republic. It replaced the Republic from inside. Imperial officers graduate from the same training schools and academies as Republic officers before them. Same for Imperial troops... except the Empire does much better brainwashing. But it's easy to get recruits once you control the galaxy! They needed clones because they weren't expecting a war and didn't have the time to train an army. The Empire is built on war and has the time to set up training and recruitment facilities. They use propaganda and news to get people to join up and defend their government. Many people would listen -- it IS the legal government after all! And it's not like they hear about the bad things... propaganda is called propaganda for a reason, and media control is a given in such a government (as best they can anyway). So no. Your premise is flawed. Okay, some stormtroopers are clones, I'll admit that. But most to all? Absolutely not. The Empire has more than enough resources to recruit them and train them to mindlessly follow orders, and they would. And it's a lot quicker than growing clones -- that takes years!

Numbers instead of names? True. Once you become a Stormtrooper one of their main goals is consuming your individuality. To do this you've got the all-covering suits, the numbers instead of names, the intensive training, etc... but it certainly does not indicate that they are clones. As for height, it's the same on every army in the world -- you have height restrictions. Minimum, probably maximum too, best averages... they would go after people of the "right" height so Stormtroopers can fit into a minimum of uniform sizes, I'd assume.

As for the voices, that's just part of the personality destruction, I think. Radios and speaking units that make them sound less like individuals. But they don't all sound the same, regardless.

There are still clones in the OT.

There might have been some clones left from the NT, but the OT takes place about 30 years later and many of the clones would have grown old and died [since their growth rate was much higher than humans] and unless more were made then there would be few left. The Emperor had several clones of himself [according to later books], but cloning since the Clone Wars was put to halt when the Emperor made cloning illegal and destroyed the cloning facilities

The stormtroopers are a little dumb and dense compared to the clone troopers we saw in episode II They were well organized and heavily deciplined showing no sign of fear or care for their well being, The stormtroopers and other imperial ground units would surrender or run away and often got tricked and fooled even by primitives. The voices dont sound the same like they did in Episode II and even if so why didnt Lucas use Jango Fetts actors voice like he did for Boba?The stormtroopers didnt have very many complexe lines.

Also in the military every solider has a ID Pin number (hence dog dags), Using names would be stupid especialy with ships with thousands of crew members and the death star could have had a million it would be confusing, Unless they were someone important like a officer.They would just put in the Id number and imediately know who they were. Some of the At At and walker pilots didnt have masks and you saw their distinct faces, In episode II clone troopers operated all vehicles and even ran hole starships by the looks of things.

A reason why many storm troopers might sound the same is because Lucas reused extras for many shots, Its kind of like Aliens II were James Cameron only had six different puppet aliens with exceptions of the queen the story was that they had hundreds of drones, but you never saw more then six alien drones on screen at a time. Same with the troopers the ones you saw on Tatooine in a new hope also were the same extras on the death star.

The details of how it was filmed aren't that important to me... I like to think of it as a world and so that doesn't matter, the story explanation does.

Darunia, as for your helmetless stormtrooper... who knows? I'm sure someone has invented a story for him, but without that we don't know... he's there. If you want some filmmaking answer it's probably because someone told him to be there. They don't think out the full plot explanations for everything before they film it! If that comes it comes later for stuff like that...

There might have been some clones left from the NT, but the OT takes place about 30 years later and many of the clones would have grown old and died [since their growth rate was much higher than humans] and unless more were made then there would be few left. The Emperor had several clones of himself [according to later books], but cloning since the Clone Wars was put to halt when the Emperor made cloning illegal and destroyed the cloning facilities

Yes, as I said. :)

Well, I hope you're right---but I still harbor my doubts.

There might have been some clones left from the NT, but the OT takes place about 30 years later and many of the clones would have grown old and died [since their growth rate was much higher than humans] and unless more were made then there would be few left. The Emperor had several clones of himself [according to later books], but cloning since the Clone Wars was put to halt when the Emperor made cloning illegal and destroyed the cloning facilities

That's an EU explanation, and EU is not canon. There's a reason why Palpatine had clones made, and you'll find out that reason in Episode III. As to the question of how many clones there are in the OT, that is still up to speculation.

...I still say its a missing element to a great super-plot that was never realized.

That's an EU explanation, and EU is not canon. There's a reason why Palpatine had clones made, and you'll find out that reason in Episode III. As to the question of how many clones there are in the OT, that is still up to speculation.

Until specifically disproven, to me EU is canon.

...does that include the Star Wars X-Mas Special...?

We can only hope.

Until specifically disproven, to me EU is canon.


Nothing in the EU is canon unless it's clearly confirmed by the movies.



...

Oh who cares.

Let's just go watch the Star Wars Christmas Special.

MMMMmmmmmmnnnnnnno thanks.

Nothing in the EU is canon unless it's clearly confirmed by the movies.



...

Oh who cares.

Then no EU material is canon... my position is the exact opposite of that. I like the EU and definitely consider it correct material... why not? And as for specifically disproven material, I'd rather think that just those aspects of the stories are wrong and the rest are right -- like in Tales of the Bounty Hunters the Boba Fett origin story is obviously wrong, but the other part of the story, set in the future, I'd say could certainly have happened.


... okay, except for the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy. It is badly written and destroys two of my favorite stories in Tales of the Bounty Hunters... THAT trilogy I'd rather pretend never existed. :D

And then there's Splinter of the Mind's Eye.

Which is just so non-canon even though it came out before ESB. The problem with the EU is that it gets contradicted pretty much every time something about the new movies are revealed, so you have to wait until after Episode III comes out before you can see what's canon. Right now most EU is not canon.

Splinter of the Mind's Eye...
OB1 - how is it non-canon? ESB and RotJ didn't directly disprove that those events happened... it's not exactly the best SW book ever, but how is it not canon?
GR -- yeah, I can see what you mean by wishing it was non-canon... :) It's probably not as bad as Bounty Hunter Wars, but it's not too far behind...


Anyone here read Tales of the Bounty Hunters? The Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy?

Splinter of the Mind's Eye uses that whole force crystal thing as its main plot device, one that was going to be used in one of the sequels but was eventually axed. There is no force crystal in the SW universe anymore, and the events in SotME are not canon.

Plus, it elaborates on the whole Luke-having-a-crush-on-Leia thing, which is just nasty. :|

Plus, it elaborates on the whole Luke-having-a-crush-on-Leia thing, which is just nasty. :|

That's what I meant by 'wish it didn't happen'. :)

Splinter of the Mind's Eye uses that whole force crystal thing as its main plot device, one that was going to be used in one of the sequels but was eventually axed. There is no force crystal in the SW universe anymore, and the events in SotME are not canon.

I'd forgotten the details... but couldn't there have been just that one or something?

That's what I meant by 'wish it didn't happen'.


Well rejoice, because it didn't.

I'd forgotten the details... but couldn't there have been just that one or something?


No, the force crystal thing was an idea that was completely dropped from Star Wars and is not canon, so therefor the book is not canon.

Canon! *fires a giant canon* Wooo!

*gets hits by giant canon ball"


OUCH FUCK THAT HURT!!

:luigiwin:

I read the first book in the Bountyhunter Wars; "The Mandalorian Armor"...I like it pretty well, but never got around to reading the sequels. I thought it was good; entertaining.

The other two are a lot like the first... I didn't think they were that well written first, but the biggest problem is how they completely ignore what happens in Tales of the Bounty Hunters until about book three where the two major issues are just explained away in about a sentence each. ... bah, I forget the character names... but first, the reptile guy's (bounty hunter who hunts Wookies) ship was stolen by this woman bounty hunter and her Wookie companion. In Bounty Hunter Wars, unexplained for at least a book and a half, he has his ship again. It's explained away at long last with a line that just says something about that he eventually got back his ship... no details or anything. The other major issue was about these two bounty hunters. One's a droid and the other... oh, right! Zuckuss (or something like that) and 4-LOM I believe. They were partners. In the end of their story they have joined the Rebels. In the beginning of book one of BHW they are not partners and aren't with the Rebels. It's eventually explained away by saying that they eventually had differences with the rebels and eachtother... I forget the details exactly, but I didn't find it very convincing... I really got the impression that the guy had not read TotBH when he wrote those books and added those things in later when he was told about them or something. Maybe not, but that's the impression I got. Not to mention that the two groups of characters he messed with there were ones I liked... and the way he used one of them (esp. Zukuss) was awful and the other pair was totally ignored. Bad.

Do you mean Bosk(May not be exact spelling)? He was the reptile bountyhunter seen in empire strikes back next to Boba Fett, I had Bosks action figure for quite a while.

To me they should make a book dedicated to the history of the Fett family Lineage. Maybe the Reason Jango Fett wanted to be cloned is that he feared his family line had come to a end, In KOTOR a Cassus Fett was mentioned and you can get his body armor.

Yeah, that's him... Bossk maybe? Tales of the Bounty Hunters was making stories about the bounty hunters you saw in that scene...

Yeah, that's him... Bossk maybe? Tales of the Bounty Hunters was making stories about the bounty hunters you saw in that scene...

I read tales from Jabbas place a long time ago and Boba Fett had a story written about him telling us how he was abled to escape out of the belly of that mouth on Tattoine.

I think a saw a tales of the bounty hunters book as well, Quite a while ago.

I was listening to the other SW dvd commentaries and Lucas basically comes out and says that there are clonetroopers in the OT. The term "clonetrooper" is not exactly official and has never been used in the movies. They are simple stormtroopers. In the OT many if not most of the troopers are clones, though not clones of Jango obviously. They still recruit people, but you'll find out in Episode III why the Emperor loves his clones so much. If you'd like I could spoil it right now...

No.

And I said that I'm sure some are clones (including some more recent clones -- the EU has some of those too. I remember one book with this planet with a bunch of Imperial clone soldiers, and remember the ones they were making in the Zahn trilogy?). I was just saying that it wasn't ALL of them... and even if there were clones, as you say, they'd be of more than one person.

No shit, Sherlock. When did I say they'd be clones of just one person? Most of troopers in the OT are clones. That is a fact.

And most of the Zahn stuff has been contradicted thanks to the prequels.

"most of"? No. Definitely not. Sure, his dates are off and a few minor details are wrong, but I would definitely say that "most of" it is either perfectly plausible or would work fine if you fixed the details he could not have known, like the specific dates of the Clone Wars.

Everything regarding the methods of cloning, the lost Jedi, and a number of other details have been contradicted.

Uh, not about the methods of cloning, I think... not as far as I know anyway. At least not the general details, which are the most important -- in that before it always took years to grow clones but with their special technique they could do it quickly, which could not be done before... as for other things I don't remember.

They used those cylinder things for cloning. That's not how clones were made, even after the prequels.

So of course it's impossible to do it that way? Uh... I doubt that.

They explained it in the book as the way that Jedi was cloned, as well as the troopers.

I think. I forgot, it's been so long since I read it.

Those are still good books though. I really should read them again sometime. Of course there are a lot of books I should read again and plenty that I haven't read yet.

Yeah the Thrawn trilogy was great.

They were the first modern EU fiction, and they might still be the best... and unlike most of the EU it's actually been used a lot. Mara Jade is a major EU book character, for instance, and in the realm of videogames Thrawn shows up in TIE Fighter (including in the introduction) and a bunch of stuff, including Mara Jade and Ysalamiris, are in Mysteries of the Sith... none of the other EU serieses have as much recognition. And, I'd say, for good reason... that one's still likely the best...

I wonder if there will be revised editions of any of the EU books once Episode III is finally released, so that they can fix some of the many contradictions all over the place.

That might be a good idea, but I don't know if they would want to do that... well, a good idea for continuity. Not for people who have to re-buy fifty books. :) ... I'd just stick with the ones I have, fixing those little problems wouldn't be worth that kind of cash after I own all (or virtually all; I don't have the newest few (four I think?) books, the movie novelizations, or the (supposedly awful) Lando Calrissian Adventures...) of those books already...

Well they wouldn't need to fix all of the books.

The Jedi Academy trilogy is pretty good too. That have to change some things in those books also, since the New Republic discovers an Imperial facility where the Death Star was designed and a major plot point includes a scientist that designed it. Oh well, it was a good series and I'll still enjoy reading it.

That would take minimal modification to make sense. After all, someone had to have designed the Death Star! So they weren't Imperials yet... really, it's a small thing. Scientists would obviously have to design it and they well could have been where they are in that series. You only need to modify it to reflect the fact that instead of Imperials running it back when the Death Star was first worked on, it was people who Palpatine was manipulating.

Possibly, but Episode 2 made it seem like that it was people on Geonosis that designed the Death Star not scientists at the Maw Installation.

They didn't directly state it however. :)

No, but it's implied fairly heavily.

Actually, Lucas himself directly stated it in the commentary track. He talked about Clerks and how "Jay and Silent Bob don't need to worry about innocent workers dying because they were all these ugly bug creatures". :D Now, it was Dante and Randall who talked about that, but that was hilarious when Lucas mentioned it.

And if you don't know what I'm talking about, for goodness sake go out and rent Clerks!

It implies something but I'm sure you could explain it in a way that would keep some kind of role in the project for the Maw Installation... it'd require some story rewrite for sure but it'd definitely still work.

Having a Episode VII might clear it up , Id like to see Mara Jade she is mentioned in the archives of starwars.com , So I guess she could be canon in Lucas eyes.

But I soppose the actors are too old now... :( ,Video games and books is the only way you could have it now. Lucas will just have to say what is official and what isnt.

D-do you suppose that my Star Wars story--is... is canon?

*Beseeching puppy-dog face* :crap:

what?

D-do you suppose that my Star Wars story--is... is canon?

Of course...wait...you were asking if it was NOT canon right?