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Sat, March 31st, 2007   #1
Tyrone Slothrop, Esq.
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Default Iran should die. Seriously.

What a horrible situation. They kidnap sailors who clearly were not in Iranian waters, act like the victim, and no one seems to care.

Britain is showing yellow already, which is very disheartening. They have no reason to apologize, nor should they resort to diplomacy or give Iran an inch. Britain did nothing wrong. Yet, it seems like a matter of time before they emasculate themselves just to save face. What a shame. What is it coming to when world powers allow themselves to be pushed around so savagely by these bullshit tinpot dictators?

Bush is at least giving hard words, but that's all he'll do, I'm certain. And we shouldn't have to talk hard for Britain. They should be able to speak for themselves.

Clearly, the Ahmadinehad regime is not one that should be suffered, and the Middle East in general gives very few good reasons why the civilized world should tolerate its existence.

Where are those biofuels and fuel cells so that region fades into the obscurity it deserves?
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Sat, March 31st, 2007   #2
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What is the best way to salvage the situation? Face or no face, that is the path that demands attention. In this case, perhaps we should remind them we still have the capability to destroy them, even if we don't actually do it?

Perhaps a small show of force followed by a request to hold peace talks? That's how they did it in the old days... *Bam* we should talk about this.
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Wed, April 11th, 2007   #3
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The actual Iranian population isn't so bad, and the nation as a whole isn't as repressive as some of the Arab Middle Eastern nations that are our "allies"... but yes, the government hates America and causes trouble. I'm not sure what we can really do about it, though, but sanctions to try to limit their progress on refining nuclear fuel are certainly important, as is whatever the UN, EU, etc. can get done. Invasion is not an option.
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Wed, April 11th, 2007   #4
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The population - or the youth, at least - is probably the only one in the Middle East that could be trusted not to elect extremists, were they operating in a democratic system. The current state is well entrenched though, so I don't know how feasible a peaceful revolution like in the ex-USSR states would be. The pro-Russians and Shi'ites (in Lebanon) never had the support of the military and paramilitary like the Ayatollah does.

I would recommend simply waiting for the old generation to die off, but the nuclear issue makes things relatively more complicated.
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Wed, April 11th, 2007   #5
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Pakistan probably wouldn't elect extremists either, but that's not in the Middle East either, even if it is Muslim... there is a strong radical presence in part of the Pakistani mountains, but the majority of the population isn't on their side. As for Iran though, hey, this is what we wanted... in the Cold War we supported anyone, brutal dictator or no, as long as they said they were anti-Communist. So we supported the Shah in Iran, and he had secret police and the like and was hated by his people. Should it really have been surprising when the people revolted and overthrew him (in 1979), with how much they hated him? In many ways the current state of Iran is a problem we created ourselves...

Of course, the same thing is true in Afghanistan (we helped incite the Soviet invasion, then abandoned the place once the USSR collapsed, and pretty much ignored it while the Taliban took over until Al Quaida attacked us, when we put back in the old warlords... yeah, that's going well.), but that's how things are...

Anyway, as far as Iran goes, you're right, it's a tough situation since the population's beliefs are so clearly not in line with what the religious leaders are saying, yet there is so little we can do... invade and we'd unite them against us, whether or not they actually hate us. We also would never win... it'd essentially be handing over a major victory to the religious leadership in Iran, which obviously is a bad idea. But reform isn't happening there either, since any change has to get through the religious bureaucracy which opposes it... so things are pretty much paralyzed.
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Thu, April 12th, 2007   #6
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Iranians would go the Turkish route albeit if it had the chance.

I can say everything that has happened for the past 7 years certainly changed my long perceptions of the world and history for that matter.

It was a dad event that a Tartar religion like Islam came into existence , Were a angel sent from Allah whispered messages from a god to a Bedouin man setting a system of dogma and religious laws that cannot be amended and are infallible and anyone who says otherwise "works with the devil".They also believe any man who is a prophet is infallible so any actions he takes is always right no matter what.

This is what keeps people willfully self oppressed just like in Algeria were they pretty much voted in a theocracy, Islam rejects individualism.

Turkey claims to be secular , In truth if you've read the history of the Turkish republic Atatürk had to force the "caliph" to a sign a document giving away his authority to the elected legislator to bypass sharia. There was allot of unique patch work that needed to be done for the"Turkish republic to exist".
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Wed, April 18th, 2007   #7
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The nuclear thing is one thing (and will eventually be solved one way or another), but want something more immediate to dislike Iran about? How about its "justice" system...
Iran Exonerates Six Who Killed in Islam’s Name

Published: April 19, 2022

TEHRAN, April 18 — The Iranian Supreme Court has overturned the murder convictions of six members of a prestigious state militia who killed five people they considered “morally corrupt.”

The reversal, in an infamous five-year-old case from Kerman, in central Iran, has produced anger and controversy, with lawyers calling it corrupt and newspapers giving it prominence.

“The psychological consequences of this case in the city have been great, and a lot of people have lost their confidence in the judicial system,” Nemat Ahmadi, a lawyer associated with the case, said in a telephone interview.

Three lower court rulings found all the men guilty of murder. Their cases had been appealed to the Supreme Court, which overturned the guilty verdicts. The latest decision, made public this week, reaffirms that reversal.

“The objection by the relatives of the victims is dismissed, and the ruling of this court is confirmed,” the court said in a one-page verdict.

The ruling may still not be final, however, because a lower court in Kerman can appeal the decision to the full membership of the Supreme Court. More than 50 Supreme Court judges would then take part in the final decision.

According to the Supreme Court’s earlier decision, the killers, who are members of the Basiji Force, volunteer vigilantes favored by the country’s supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, considered their victims morally corrupt and, according to Islamic teachings and Iran’s Islamic penal code, their blood could therefore be shed.

The last victims, for example, were a young couple engaged to be married who the killers claimed were walking together in public.

Members of the Basiji Force are known for attacking reformist politicians and pro-democracy meetings. President Ahmadinejad was a member of the force, but the Supreme Court judges who issued the ruling are not considered to be specifically affiliated with it.

Iran’s Islamic penal code, which is a parallel system to its civic code, says murder charges can be dropped if the accused can prove the killing was carried out because the victim was morally corrupt.

This is true even if the killer identified the victim mistakenly as corrupt. In that case, the law requires “blood money” to be paid to the family. Every year in Iran, a senior cleric determines the amount of blood money required in such cases. This year it is $40,000 if the victim is a Muslim man, and half that for a Muslim woman or a non-Muslim.

In a long interview with the Iranian Student News Agency, a Supreme Court judge, Mohammad Sadegh Al-e-Eshagh, who did not take part in this case, sought Wednesday to discourage vigilante killings, saying those carried out without a court order should be punished.

At the same time, he laid out examples of moral corruption that do permit bloodshed, including armed banditry, adultery by a wife and insults to the Prophet Muhammad.

“The roots of the problems are in our laws,” said Mohammad Seifzadeh, a lawyer and a member of the Association for Defenders of Human Rights in Tehran. “Such cases happen as long as we have laws that allow the killer to decide whether the victim is corrupt or not. Ironically, such laws show that the establishment is not capable of bringing justice, and so it leaves it to ordinary people to do it.”

The ruling stems from a case in 2002 in Kerman that began after the accused watched a tape by a senior cleric who ruled that Muslims could kill a morally corrupt person if the law failed to confront that person.

Some 17 people were killed in gruesome ways after that viewing, but only five deaths were linked to this group. The six accused, all in their early 20s, explained to the court that they had taken their victims outside the city after they had identified them. Then they stoned them to death or drowned them in a pond by sitting on their chests.

Three of the families had given their consent under pressure by the killers’ families to accept financial compensation, said Mr. Ahmadi, the lawyer.

Such killings have occurred in the past. A member of the security forces shot and killed a young man in 2005 in the subway in Karaj, near Tehran, for what he also claimed was immoral behavior by the victim.

A judge caused outrage in 2004 in Neka, in the north, after he issued a death sentence for a 16-year old girl for what he said were chastity crimes. After the summary trial, he had her hanged in public immediately, before the necessary approval from the Supreme Court.

Neither man has been punished.

“Such laws are not acceptable in our society today,” said Hossein Nejad Malayeri, the brother of Gholamreza Nejad Malayeri, who was killed by the group in Kerman. “That means if somebody has money, he can kill, and claim the victim was corrupt.”

I remember that '16 year old girl executed' thing. She had sex before marriage or something and the judge didn't like her attitude in court, so he made sure she was executed as soon as possible. Another case of note was one where two men, one 17 and one 18 (even younger at the time of offense), were hanged (that's what they do for executions in Iran, hang people) for being gay... in most of the Middle East, being gay is a capital offense.

... of course, this could apply just as much (with slight variations in each case) to any number of other countries. For instance, China executes more people than any other nation in the world by a huge, huge margin... but it's barely ever even mentioned. Oh yes, and Tineanmen Square (1989) wasn't unique because it was a revolt; those happen all the time in China. It was unique because it was college students. If it had just been rural peasants or the urban poor like usual, it'd just get crushed like usual, a few people would be executed, and that'd be the end of it... but they were college students, so they were better off, so it became a major event. (Oh yes, and in the aftermath (after the massacre itsself, where most of the dead were workers in side streets around the square, not the students themselves, though some did die), a bunch of poor workers who had joined the protesting students were executed. The students? Minor punishments. They had connections.) And Saudi Arabia... not just public executions (beheading, I believe), but public 'cutting off of the hands of thieves', etc...

It may be the 21st century, but far too much of the world is living under very cruel legal systems...
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