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#1
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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That would be a tough price for gamers to swallow, but the thing that scares me is the lower fees for game developers. One of the many things that hurt Nintendo going from SNES to N64 was the fact that Sony was much nicer to game publishers and developing for Playstation was much cheaper than developing for Nintendo 64.
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#2
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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There's no way I'd pay $450 for the PSP, no matter how good it is.
PSP Cons: -Insanely high cost -Really short battery life PSP Pros: -The heat it produces can cook meat -If you turn it just right you can use the glare off the screen to blind people -It does your taxes
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#3
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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Yeah, lower developer fees will be a advantage to the system...but once you get away from carts that's pretty much inevitable. Isn't it the cart format that is a lot of the high costs?
However, for gamers the prices for games will be higher than GBA games, from what I've heard. And at that price, and with that battery life... it might eventually succeed as a multifunction device, but I can't see it getting anywhere near success in the GBA's handheld gaming market. Not with its significant problems. Not until it's cheap and has a lot better battery life. 
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#4
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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It wouldn't surprise me if the PSP games cost $50.
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#5
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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I think I've heard $40... but yeah it well may be $50.
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#6
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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That paragraph about lower developer costs is longer in another source.
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/462/462131p1.html Quote:
OB1, OB1, OB1... given your previous attitudes on this thing I thought you'd do this. I just don't get why you seem determined to be the biggest PSP fanboy you can be... it's so clearly flawed in so many ways! It's really perplexing how you keep insisting that it will crush the GBA and is direct competition to the GBA from the start despite so much evidence otherwise. I don't get it... before this I'd never have thought of you as a Sony fanboy... Oh, and you just don't seem to get what market Sony is aiming at with the thing. This price should clue you in. But when you see a report that clearly has people from Sony saying "we are aiming at a somewhat different market" and "there is room for both to be successful" and price it more than four times more than the GB... You react by saying 'it'll be cheaper here'. Now. You may be right. Things usually do cost more in Europe and somewhat more in Japan than they do here. However, it's just by degrees, not by large amounts. As in, it might be $425, or if you're really lucky maybe even $400, but that'd be a bargain-basement price given what they are saying here, and the fact that they are saying that unlike with the PSX/2 they want to make money on the hardware. I think the fact that they are saying they want to make money on the hardware is a admission on their part that the PSP isn't going to crush the GBA anytime soon and making it a bit cheaper would be pointless as they will never get it down to GB-level prices. In some ways it's smart... what if it was $300, and they take a $100-plus loss on every one? They'd sell better, somewhat, but would be a massive loser and they wouldn't be getting profitable anytime soon... but this way it'll be profitable no matter how few it sells (now I'm sure it'll sell out at launch, etc... I'm talking about in a bit longer term than that)... it's an admission that the GB is not a realistic target, but also one that they intend to stay alive in the handheld business. If it was just a giant loser it might not survive... interesting. Oh yeah, and it's also saying that the thing is for the market I'd call 'adults'. And it's meant to replace some of their various handheld appliances like PDAs and MP3 players and stuff... and play games too.
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#8
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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*sigh*
You are exactly the kind of blind, ignorant fanboy I had to deal with during the N64 days. You see ABF, the difference between you and me is that I try to remove my biases, while you're the most biased fanboy I've met since my days in Croatia. I'm more of a Nintendo fan than you are, but I do not allow myself to become deluded like you do. "The IQue would sell great here", "Sony became #1 in the industry based soley off of luck", etc. You only look like a fool, Brian. When Sony says that the PSP will not directly compete with the GBA, they mean that as an insult towards the GBA. They're calling it a toy. Of course the PSP will not directly compete with the GBA. The GBA will be obsolete next to the PSP. It'll be like comparing a Porsche 911 to a Yugo. Like the PS2 competiting with the N64. The PSP will compete with Nintendo's next handheld, and the longer they wait before they release it the harder it will be to remain on top. I don't believe this rumor from that website. Sony didn't get on top because of blind luck, no matter how much you tell yourself that. They've always had low licensing fees, and they still manage to make big bucks with the PlayStation systems. I really can't imagine them actually trying to make a profit per handheld sold, as they know that it would never sell that well at that price point. Unless of course they've gotten cocky like Nintendo was when Sony came out of nowhere and crushed them. But I don't really believe that just yet.
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#9
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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Oh and I'd like to point out another flaw in your argument. Price differences between Europe and the U.S. are enormous. If a game is $50 here then it'll be £40 in the UK. Those guys don't convert straight from the dollar when they release games over there. The PS2 launched at about £250 in the UK, which is around $450.
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#10
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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*braces for threat move*
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That would be a better point if the Japanese price wasn't the same as the European one... Quote:
I just fundamentally don't understand how you think it's fine to take facts from the home console market and transtlate them straight to the portables without any additions. As I've said many times, there are different realities and expectations in the portable market. Sony has made a product. It is a product that fits well in a specific market. That market is the group of products on the next level up from the Game Boy. It looks like a competitor to the Palms and iPods of the world, not the Game Boys, from every measure I can see. But still you have a lot of other flaws in this post. Let's tear it apart. Quote:
I didn't say and didn't mean that. I said it wouldn't fail, and that it could succeed in some ways... but 'do great' to me implies that it would compete on an even level with the newer consoles. I don't think that. It's obviously not competition for the NGC/PS2/X-Box... and as for the GBA, it isn't if it's not a handheld which it doesn't look like it is. Quote:
Luck and great marketing. If Nintendo had ditched them two years earlier the PSX would have been just like the 3DO. Quote:
They are looking at the hardwares. The GBA-SP has greatly helped that one with older gamers. With it Nintendo finally moved the GBA into the market the PSP is aiming for... partially. I know it's stuff that people like Nokia have said, but it really is true that the GB isn't "cool" among older people... it definitely is seen as a kids toy where the major home consoles have grown up somewhat. As for adults who have GBAs I'd say that it's a more specific market that already had interest in videogames... Sony is aiming wider. They are trying to make the next Walkman. That's what they have said from the start. Oh, sure, the Walkman was just for music, but what they mean is more of this 'convergence' stuff they're pushing with their home consoles too. They want something that isn't just a game machine, it's a MP3 player and probably a PDA and several other things... if it just sold to gamers Sony would call it a failure. Actually, that's another good reason that they want to make money off the hardware... they can't rely on the PSP selling lots of games with every console for years. They got burned on the PS2 with all the people buying it for the DVD player, remember... Quote:
We drove a Yugo for our year in Yugoslavia... it wasn't quite as bad as it's reputation, I think. Yes, the PSP greatly outclasses it in almost every way (read: except for price, price of games, and battery life). But those three things matter a LOT. Oh, and don't discount the next Game Boy... sure, it won't be out for a while after the PSP, but as is becoming more and more obviously clear that won't be a problem. Quote:
If the N64 ran for 12 hours before having to be recharged and the PS2 went three. And if N64 games were cheaper than PS2 games. And if the N64 before the PS2 launch had 95% of the market. Quote:
It will indeed compete with the next GB... well, either this PSP will or one of inevitable hardware revisions will... but it will compete with the GBA first and for most consumers the choice will be obvious. The PSP may look really cool, but the limitations are just prohibitive (or plain unatractive) for a handheld for most people. Quote:
Rumor? Please "read" the articles you see before you say that... Here is the source article. http://www.gamesindustry.biz/conten...me=new&aid=2787 Look at it. Sony Europe head... oh, then add those two paragraphs from my post a couple posts up that I got from VE3D, they were in the original paper article mentioned in that article. This is the Sony Europe head, not some nobody... and those "rumors" of the Japanese price being 48000-50000 Yen sound fairly reliable too. As I said, you're just in denial because you're a PSP fanboy. Quote:
Yes, Sony has always had low liscencing fees. The low fees on this should indeed attract developers. The Byzantine programming will repel them (I have heard rumors that it's quite hard to develop for), but that prospect of making more money off games sold than with the GBA and of Sony marketing should get developers behind it... or, at least some of them. But as I said, Sony is smart to make a profit on units sold (not a bad idea, BTW... Nintendo always does it...) in this case is definitely a smart decision. Oh, sure, $300 and $400 are different, but for handhelds... it's not that huge honestly. Most people won't spend that much for a handheld, but for the ones that will it's only a small step from one level to the next, I think... and it means a LOT to Sony's profits, which the company badly needs. And they just know that at either price they won't sell the numbers needed to make a profit anytime soon... as I said, it'll sell plenty of units up front, but the number of early adopters doesn't mean everything... just look at the N64 for proof of that... Oh, and it leaves Nintendo with a lockhold on the children's market. The place they will be competing is adults... in that market it's less certain. Many people are used to three-hour battery lives and expensive electronics, after all... enough that the PSP will probably succeed, when you factor in the Sony marketing machine. But that market just isn't enough to take over from Game Boy. Not until they change the public's opinion on the handheld, something that I don't think will happen quickly...
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Last edited by A Black Falcon : Mon, January 12th, 2004 at 09:57 PM.
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#11
Mon, January 12th, 2004
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 I hope that's not all you got, Brian. Because it's wearing pretty thin.The yen price is a rumor. It's a guess. And the Sony head was giving a guess as well. I'll wait until official word. Quote:
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Sure Nintendo will have the pre-school market like they've always had, but that's not where the money is. Adults aren't buying handheld gaming systems now for the same reason they didn't buy home consoles before the PSX arrived. Think about it.
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#12
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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I wouldnt buy it untill atleast a year after it comes out, I doubt they will get any were selling it at 450 at that price you may has well buy a computer.
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#13
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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The price differences between Japan and the U.S. aren't very much at all, maybe $5-$10 at most, so there's no way the PSP would 50000 yen in Japan and only $250 here.
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Currently playing: Resident Evil 4 [GC], Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater [PS2], La Pucelle Tactics [PS2], Burnout 3 [Xbox] I am the King of Rumbling!! Bow before my Rumbliness!
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#14
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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That's not really true. Everything is more expensive in Japan than it is here. Now there isn't nearly as large of a price difference between games as there is with Europe and the U.S., but there's still a big difference when it passes a certain number. A $400 PSP would probably sell well in Japan but definitely not over here, and I'm sure Sony knows that. But again, wait until we get an official price point. You guys get too excited over speculation.
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#15
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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Sure, there would be a difference but I don't think it would be enough to make the PSP affordable to me if it's $400-$500 in Japan
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#16
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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But as GR says the difference is usually quite small, $10 or less. Which is why I said that $400 is a absolute minimum, and $450 is quite likely. Quote:
I'd say that Nintendo has a year at least before they have to release a new GB. No question. And between the strong limitations of the PSP and Sony's inevitable issues, I think that they will have at least that much time until the PSP begins to seriously challenge the GB in almost all of its market... Quote:
I meant it in the sense of taking a paragraph and dividing it into small chunks. Quote:
It would do well enough to not be cancelled. Quote:
Sure Sony had better marketing than Phillips (CD-i) (another attempt at that same thing by a giant in the industry) or 3D0/Panasonic (3D0), but yes, if the PSX had come out a few years earlier like those did it'd have suffered the same fate. You see, PSX just hit the sweet spot... as Trip Hawkins (3D0 founder) said. When they released the 3D0 at $700 it was the most powerful console around and had to be that expensive. But it didn't do 3d... and not too long later the PSX comes out much cheaper with strong 3d. That wasn't because Sony is so smart. It was luck. Luck that they started the PSX project when they did, luck that Nintendo got rid of them at just the right time so that when they finished the PSX on their own it'd be at just the right time to have that level of 3d... and then using marketing better than the aforementioned consoles sold it to the public. But make no mistake about it, luck had a very large role in the success of the PSX. Oh yeah, and Sega misreading the market and thinking 2d was still good when people wanted 3d helped a lot too... as well obviously as Nintendo's mistaken faith in carts. Both of those things were more major lucky breaks for Sony. Quote:
And as I said, in the first year at least a lot of people DID get PS2s just to be DVD players! It's a fact, and it lost Sony a lot of money! This is the same way since it's a multifunction device. And this time they don't want to lose money to those people who use the PSP for its nongaming functions far more than its gaming ones, like they did with the PS2... seems reasonable to me. And you are wrong. Sony from the very start has been VERY clear that this is a multifunction 'Walkman for the new generation' that will bring together multiple functions into one handheld... and I'm sure that you'll see this fact more clearly once they start showing exactly what the thing can do. Quote:
Were you actually in one? Oh, and what I remember best is that there weren't seatbelts in the back seat... Quote:
The rumors seem quite solid and consistent on these features of the system. Quote:
So you admit your comparison was badly flawed. The SNES-PSX is better but still off... on battery life and game prices, most obviously. Quote:
We don't know the final exact details, but it's good enough... Quote:
No one acting like you do wants Nintendo to succeed. And I think I'll believe the head of Sony Europe over your hopes for its immediate mass-market success. Quote:
I read that at Magicbox. And yes, if it's successful enough Sony can get developers to ignore it just like the PS2, you are right... but until it gets there I think it'll be an impediment to its success. And as for price the $400 one is reasonable for the kind of device the PSP actually is turning out to be, you know... Quote:
More money is in the adult market than children's, true, but the younger market is still quite important for sure... and yes you are mostly right that adults don't get handhelds for the same reasons they didn't get consoles. But that attitude until recently was pretty accurate... it's only in the last while that the GB has finally tried to hit the adult market and while it is making some headway with the SP and the strategy/rpg lineup, it hasn't hit mass acceptance. Sony is trying to do it by releasing a handheld that also does other things that adults do want portable devices for... of course that was also the attitude that Nokia did with the N-Gage and Tapwave with the Zodiac, so I don't know how successful it'll be. The only difference will be because of Sony's muscle among developers and good marketing...
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#17
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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 Do you have any idea how much money it would cost to develop new games for the IQue? Much more than they'd get from sales.Quote:
1) They offered much much more freedom to developers, even more than Sega did 2) Super-low licensing fees 3) Great marketing and PR; they know what people want and how to make games more accessable to the mainstream 4) Great third-party support because of reasons #1 & #2 5) They encouraged developers to make games for a more "mature" audience And that was before the PlayStation brand name became so popular. I suppose you also think that luck is why Sony is still #1 with far inferior hardware, right? Boy, I bet they have a huge stash of four-leaf clovers!  Quote:
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 What do you think, genius? Quote:
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It was a good comparison, but the PSX with SNES is closer. Quote:
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It's called being realistic, Brian. R-E-A-L-I-S-T-I-C! I don't like to lie to myself. Quote:
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You get the idea. It'll take an awful lot of screwing up on Sony's part for it not to be a huge success.
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#18
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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I'll repeat it again, prices in Japan are often slightly higher but not by huge amounts of money. $50 at most, I'd say, for consoles... so $400 might be in the realm of possibility as I have suggested, but not lower than that unless they want to lose huge amounts of money (which they are stating they do not want to do). Quote:
I have detailed them many times and they are definitely strong. This is different from the other consoles Sony has launched... Quote:
Didn't mean it that way... Quote:
Not necessarially... but yes, most will be ports. Quote:
#s 1 and 2 are good points. Those are indeed good things Sony did to draw in developers. But still in any other console climate they still would have failed... it took Nintendo and Sega's major mistakes to give them their opportunity. Luck. I mentioned #3. #4 was a result of #1, #2, and Square going PSX. #5 was true too but really is the same as #3... Quote:
You underestimate it, for sure. Need to go. Will finish later.
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#19
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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#20
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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Prices for consoles have always been generally the same across the three regions, so I really doubt they'd sell the PSP for 50000 yen in Japan and only about $300 or less in the U.S.
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#21
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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Er... will you explain this super-special mystical reason that is why it is impossible to ask $400 for a system like the PSP while it's fine in the rest of the world? "Impossible"? Huh? That makes no sense... it's quite possible. Given all it does I'm not surprised at all that that's the price, actually. You aren't making any sense, except in the 'I am in denial' mode that you are currently in. Quote:
Far more than just idle speculation... there is a lot more backing behind this than mere rumor. Quote:
Nintendo is saying that within 3-5 years they expect the iQue to be very successful. Quote:
No, without Nintendo and Sega being idiotic Sony would be remembered as being better than Phillips and Panasonic but in that same category, I'm sure. And Nintendo has changed more than you admit, but admittedly less than they should. Quote:
In that latest Japanese chart Nintendo-console games are 7 of the top 10... yeah, Nintendo sure is failing. In the link I gave it had the top 50 (Japan). It was around 20 PS2, 20 GBA, and 10 GC... But that's irrelevant. Given the massive size of the PS2 userbase of course it'll sell a lot of games. And given enough time people who bought it for the DVD player will get a few games. But it just won't sell as many games per system as a dedicated console would... Anyway, I'll get to the point. Your denying that lots of people bought the PS2 for the DVD player and with the games as a secondary feature is utterly laughable. Quote:
True, but Sony is definitely pushing this 'PlayStation is more than games' thing pretty hard... Quote:
That's what I certainly would have thought. But were they REALLY that bad? Quote:
I disagree. I count things said by the head of a division of a company as more than just "rumor"... some stuff is just rumor but all the rumors seem to be agreeing and that says something. Quote:
That list I gave isn't a complete one of the flaws in that comparison... and yes SNES-PSX is definitely closer but still different in some important ways (yes, the PS name's popularity is one of them). Quote:
When you're hearing stuff from multiple sources over a course of months... Quote:
No he did not. Definitely not. He just said that they are aiming at a somewhat different market from the one you expected... that is not an admission of failure at all. Just saying the obvious that it's not quite in the same market as the GBA... (and I don't mean that just successwise, but 'who is this for' wise too) Quote:
You are right that the GBA SP will probably help the PSP's chances... it does seem to be increasing the GB's popularity among adults and yes, that well might lead to more PSP sales among those people. The PSP's other market (the 'it replaces MP3 player/PDA/Whatever' group) is receptive to the thing too... they are used to these appliances and are the only ones used to such short battery lives, actually. They and adults who like the GBA-SP are probably the main two markets who the thing will sell to initially. Oh, with the PS name it'll be a popular thing among lots of people, for sure, and once the thing starts to improve and the price drops over time it'll definitely do well among younger (not children but teens, etc) too... but initially? No, it won't (be a big, GBA-killing, success, I mean), because of things like price and battery life. Ask again two years plus after it comes out, and then we can talk about Sony ousting Nintendo in the handheld market. Quote:
Well... the PSX was like $270 until a while ago in Japan I think, and the NGC is I think like $130 or $140 or something... so things are more expensive. But not like half the price, or two-thirds the price, or something like that, like OB1 is suggesting. No way. Europe... maybe, when you include all the taxes and how badly the companies have historically treated Europeans. But Japan? No.
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#22
Tue, January 13th, 2004
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