A Black Falcon

Ubisoft is hardly perfect and has its share of underpromoted games that should have done better, etc, but ... compared to EA they look good... yeah, this is bad news. I'd obviously disagree with the idea that they are best at anything, but they are good enough that this is bad... and large enough that it's surprising. I thought they were trying to become (or stay as) a major player, not be bought by one...

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OB1

They're not the best at anything?? Please name one other western third-party developer that has put out as many quality releases in the past few years. Please, just try.

A Black Falcon

Quanity != Greatness. Quality + Quantity also don't necessarially equal being the best. Ubisoft does have a good run of solid titles (and a lineup of cheap ones too), but if I like the games other developers are making more the fact that they have produced fewer games is irrelevant.

Blizzard = best developer. Anywhere.

For some more very good Western developers, just look at PC games. There are a whole lot of them there. I'd make a list, but it would look familiar...

As for Ubisoft, they annoyed me by abandoning Conquest: Frontier Wars (a good RTS)... yes, it didn't sell great and every other big company has done the same, but the point is Ubisoft isn't oh so much better.

Anyway... currently good Western developers? Blizzard. Firaxis, Troika, Obsidian, Bioware... I could go on for quite a while. There are a lot of very good smaller developers, certainly more than on that list. If you mean publishers, though, it's harder. None of the major publishers (Ubisoft, Vivendi Universal, EA, Activision, Take Two, etc) are great. Oh, they make some good games, but most of the best are from independant developers. I'm not sure what it is about the big ones that drains innovation but it sure seems to happen... Ubisoft as much as anywhere. Just look at sequels like Rayman 3 -- good game, but not exactly innovation-driven...

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EdenMaster

Firaxis? Troika? I've never even HEARD of those. Blizzard the best developer ever? I think not, try NINTENDO, you Warcraft fanboy!

*is Nintendo fanboy*

I can just see it now: Prince of Persia: Splinter Cell. Tom Clancy's Sands of Time.

HAVE YOU NO MERCY, EA???? SPARE US SOME GOOD GAME COMPANIES, I BEG OF YOU!!

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A Black Falcon

Ah yes, the good old "I have no idea what you are talking about so I will say you are wrong" arguement... yes, SO convincing!

Firaxis = Sid Meier, 1998-now. Anyone who hasn't heard of Sid Meier doesn't deserve to call themselves a gamer.

Troika = Fallout/Arcanum/Temple of Elemental Evil/Vampire Bloodlines... good PC RPG developer.

For some more, how about Planet Moon, ID (they do count OB1), Creative Assembly, FunCom (Finland's Western, right? ), Irrational Games... good developers all...

As for UbiSoft, the Rayman games are great. Very good platformers. I have a few other games they released... several they just published (Rocket, Conquest), several they developed (Pod, BG&E)... and they're all good, but comparing what I have of Ubisoft to Blizzard? No way. Oh, they have great art direction (as you expect from French developers), but... I guess a big part of it just comes down to whether you prefer PC or console style games. If I had to choose I'd choose PC. So UbiSoft loses out to the likes of Blizzard, and continuing that line of thought I'd probably also place them below several of those other developers... though they get a good ranking if just because of how awesome Rayman 2 was. And Pod.

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Great Rumbler

BG&E was a pretty good game, I likely would have beaten it but a glitch some hours into the game destroyed any chance of me making any more progress.

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A Black Falcon

I stopped when I ran into a bug in the PC version that kept me from being able to get a couple of pearls. Sure, I don't HAVE to get them, but it'd be so much easier (down to the underground base in town via that long downward passage)... it is a decent game, but the badly ported controls are not the only problem with the game... good, but flawed. It's just overly simplistic in action, in plot and story development, in "twists" in the story... a good effort, but with a ways to go. Too bad they won't make another one and try to improve on the idea.

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OB1

Haha, what a joke. I love it when you Billzard fanboys say this. They make one good game every few years and because of that they're the best developer ever.

Splinter Cell, Splinter Cell 2, Prince of Persia, Prince of Persia 2, Rainbow Six 3, Beyond Good and Evil, Ghost Recon 2. All good-to-superb games released within the last two years, and I'm not even counting slightly older titles like Rayman 2, or PC games that have gotten good reviews but I don't care for, like the Myst games. That makes them the best western developer of the past few years (notice that I never said "ever"). Blizzard and their whole two games in the past three years does not make them the best developer of the past few years. To even say that they're the best developer ever in anything but your own very subjective opinion makes you look like a very foolish PC fanboy.

Do I really need to list out all of Nintendo's games? Do I really?

You never cease to crack me up, ABF.

BG&E is one of the best adventure games in years, and it's really too bad that you got the horrible PC version with its shitty controls and based your opinion of the game off of that. Still, I find it amazingly hypocritical that you can call BG&E overly simple when you like so, so many terrible, simplistic games (like all of those crappy Diablo-esque games you love so much, including Gauntlet). BG&E wasn't complex, but it did what it set out to do exceedingly well, and presented its experience like very few games have done.

How far did you get, btw? I'm guessing not very far, since you usually form opinions on games after little playtime.

Pod??! That was a very average racing game at best. Rayman 2 was good but nowhere near as good as Prince of Persia, Splinter Cell, or BG&E. Ubi Soft of the last couple of years has been a far better publisher/developer than any other western game company.

What glitch? Which version did you play? You really need to finish the game.

alien space marine

I think ABF meant western developer so Nintendo isnt on the table,

Rainbow Six was not created by Ubisoft it was just a liscence they got ownership of, If buying franchises makes you the best developer then EA would be by buying Ubisoft.

Ubisoft is a larger developer it has small 3rd party developers making some its games,It Also publishes its own games.

Blizzard is a small company who gets published by Vivendi , They only got two divisions of Blizzard.

But every single game they have released was a hit and sold big got high ratings ,WOW is the highest rated MMORPG that I have seen on the market ,What I like about blizzard is that they dont milk or try to cash in with lackluster sequeils they take their time and get it right before it shows up on retail. All their games have the bst replayability , Its been 6 years and I am still playing starcraft and enjoying it.

Starcraft still is one of the most polished balanced RTS around and it aged pretty good , It even caused the economic recovery of Korea, Sold 7 million units worldwide,SC is a cultural phenominom.

Blizzard accomplishes alot for its small size ,but it is getting bigger .

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OB1

He said "anywhere".

A Black Falcon

Hostile purchase... hmm, EA has the cash to pull it off so I guess they said 'Why not?'...

Yes, I did, and I've said it before here so it isn't new news...

I seem to recall people saying 'but they make one game per year versus many and it's not a fair comparison', but if it's my favorite it's my favorite...

Blizzard not only has different servers for different parts of the world, they block people into their region so you cannot join servers for other geographical areas, stupidly. Yup, no Europeans on American WoW servers, much less Asians...

I know Pod isn't the most popular racing game ever, but it's a very fun game with fantastic track design and focus. Definitely one of the better futuristic racing games ever made. And I can *almost* get it to run on my PC... if I only had a different videocard... ah well. It's probably not a game I would have bought had I had to buy it myself as the ads and demo looked okay but not worth spending money on, but as a free game that we got with our PC? Great game, and I've gotten a lot of play out of it. Oh, and it's also got a pretty fun splitscreen mode.

Also, Maxis was having all kinds of financial and product quality problems -- see SimCopter, Streets of SimCity, SimIsle, etc... they had somewhat lost their way as they grew and became prime fodder for purchase.

Red Storm made the first Rainbow Six, but a year or two later UbiSoft bought Red Storm. The last few Rainbow Six games have been by Ubisoft itsself as a result.

Actually, they are owned by Vivendi Universal. VUGames' games division consists of Sierra, Vivendi Universal Games, and Blizzard... with "Sierra" being a dead corpse stuck on the box label of some VU-published PC games and Blizzard being an independant unit.

Blizzard hasn't been fully independant since like 1994, though, and have gone through a series of corporate parents without being destroyed by it all... and I think that they can continue to do so. At least, for as long as they keep making hits and they sure look like they will.

In the main city, there is a area with several pearls in a hidden base down a deep tunnel... you go into the building that is the guards' base or something (by a side door) and start going down this deep pit where you go past traps and then drop to the next level... well a good way down there's one where you have to walk on a narrow ledge around the hole and dodge the lasers. In the PC version I could never get around the second corner. Looked it up (for help or something) and saw a few other people had mentioned it... I guess maybe it's possible, but it sure doesn't seem it to me. Stupid morons and their cost-cutting that didn't allow for gamepad control...

That's just what got me to stop that time, though. I'd picked it up again because I wanted to try to finish... finally managed to come up with the cash for those stupid scanners (and the money supply is still a problem... getting it is slow and I need so much to buy all those pearls in the stores...) and progressed a bit, but then this came up and I stopped again. As I've said before, it's a good game but not a great one for many reasons I've laid out in depth... the control problems are annoying, and lower the PC version's score relative to the others, but even ignoring that all of my past complaints are certainly still valid.

But as I said, it's original and has good ideas at heart so it's too bad they won't make another one and try to improve on things.

Anyway, for your post... Rayman 2 is definitely better than BG&E, IMO. Rayman 2 I'd give an A while BG&E is closer to a B to B+... solid but flawed and just not as good as true AAA game.

How far am I? Uhh... it was like a month ago that I was playing it... past halfway certainly though for sure. I have the jump jets and have won the races. Next I have to get a couple more pearls so I can get enough for the thing that gets me into the Slaughterhouse. ... wait, or do I need a couple more pearls so that I can buy the jump jets? Either way, I need a couple more and then I can get there. More than just "a little ways into the game" for sure.

Uh, I love Diablo-eque games? First I've ever heard of it. I seem to recall saying many times before that I find most of them simplistic and boring... see my opinion on Dungeon Siege (stopped playing like 10 hours in because of boredom) or Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (beat because it's short and not too hard) for examples. As for Diablo II itsself, it is repetitive, which is why I never had interest in it beyond the first time through, but it was very well done and had enough to it to keep me interested through my first time through. It's got nice depth with the skill system and all of those abilities... as for the story, it wasn't brilliant but it was good enough to keep me going.

Oh yeah, and I got it as a birthday present. I was not considering spending my own money on Diablo II (like how I had not bought Diablo I) and would not have. It's nice to have, but not something I'd have wanted to spend my own money on...

Now, none of that matters to you of course. You're not talking about any of those games, you're talking about Gauntlet. And here you show to be foolish. Seriously, can't someone like simple games as well as complex ones? Gauntlet is good because of its simplicity. The story is stupid and irrelevant. Depth? Barely there. And that is GOOD. The main failing of a Dungeon Siege or BGDA is that they are caught inbetween forces of simplicity and depth and get somewhat torn apart at the crossroads... yes, those games got good scores, and I enjoy them for a little while, but they are flawed and I've said so before. Diablo II is purer and thus stands up better. Gauntlet? Gauntlet is action with a slight dash of RPG and doesn't try to pretend to be anything else. It's got about as much to do with an RPG as Gradius does with a strategy game (because of the more-strategic-than-most-shooters powerup system). And I wouldn't want it any other way just like how I wouldn't want Gradius to be TIE Fighter. I like BOTH kinds of games. This is really not such a tough concept.

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OB1

I'm just saying that you don't exactly have the finest tastes in games. Your opinion is your opinion, but it's a pretty out-there one...

Jesus, you've barely gotten anywhere in the game! Yet you still critisize it's "twists" as you put it. What an asinine thing to say. That's like only watching the first half of The Sixth Sense and complaining about how dumb the story is. Not that I expect any less of you, however...

You just made my point for me. I said that you were a hypocrite for blasting BG&E's relative simplicity (despite the fact that it isn't supposed to be a super-deep game and that it does so many different things so very well), while at the same time liking mindless simplicity like the Gauntlet series.

Uh, I love Diablo-eque games? First I've ever heard of it. I seem to recall saying many times before that I find most of them simplistic and boring... see my opinion on Dungeon Siege (stopped playing like 10 hours in because of boredom) or Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance (beat because it's short and not too hard) for examples. As for Diablo II itsself, it is repetitive, which is why I never had interest in it beyond the first time through, but it was very well done and had enough to it to keep me interested through my first time through. It's got nice depth with the skill system and all of those abilities... as for the story, it wasn't brilliant but it was good enough to keep me going.

Oh yeah, and I got it as a birthday present. I was not considering spending my own money on Diablo II (like how I had not bought Diablo I) and would not have. It's nice to have, but not something I'd have wanted to spend my own money on...

Now, none of that matters to you of course. You're not talking about any of those games, you're talking about Gauntlet. And here you show to be foolish. Seriously, can't someone like simple games as well as complex ones? Gauntlet is good because of its simplicity. The story is stupid and irrelevant. Depth? Barely there. And that is GOOD. The main failing of a Dungeon Siege or BGDA is that they are caught inbetween forces of simplicity and depth and get somewhat torn apart at the crossroads... yes, those games got good scores, and I enjoy them for a little while, but they are flawed and I've said so before. Diablo II is purer and thus stands up better. Gauntlet? Gauntlet is action with a slight dash of RPG and doesn't try to pretend to be anything else. It's got about as much to do with an RPG as Gradius does with a strategy game (because of the more-strategic-than-most-shooters powerup system). And I wouldn't want it any other way just like how I wouldn't want Gradius to be TIE Fighter. I like BOTH kinds of games. This is really not such a tough concept.

A Black Falcon

I am not the only person who ever liked Pod. And as usual you are an idiot for acting like your opinions are true for everyone. You are not the sole decider in the determination of if a game is good or bad! I know you'll never understand that fact, though... but I'll link some still-there Pod sites to prove that it isn't exactly like no one liked this game. Sure many did, but others liked it. It's a matter of opinion and does not reflect on some idiotic idea of the people who liked it liking bad games.

http://membres.lycos.fr/skubidou/Pod/
http://www.murmuran.net/pod/
http://berlinrc.de/pod/
http://witnessteam.free.fr/

I can read FAQs. That's how I reminded myself how far I was, actually. I'm about 2/3rds of the way through. That is not barely anywhere by any standards. Distort it all you will but five FAQs aren't all lying.

And saying "it gets better later" is one of the most common and stupidest excuses people use when people question games they like. You hear it all the time with MMORPGs -- "it gets fun once you hit level 20", or level 30, or level 40... is that true? Maybe slightly. But the amount of fun you're having at level 15 will not suddenly reverse in your mind and become massively more or less fun once you hit that magic number...

In the case of thise game I can be more specific than that. I know that it does not suddenly change focus partway through. I know the kind of game it is does not change midstream. I know that the story does not suddenly take big plot twists that you would never expect. It just plods along the path it sets out in blazing lights right from the start... the one "plot twist" is that DomZ=Alpha Section, but even that barely qualifies as such given how obvious it is that both groups are evil right from the start. The plot isn't HORRIBLE, but it's just so simplistic and lacking in depth, detail, complexity, uniqueness and originality, etc... it does not impress me much, you can tell. As I said not AWFUL, but not nearly as great as the game gets credit for.

The rest of your reply was the quote again...

As for this point, I guess BG&E is supposed to be simple. The problem is that it is not that simple! Yes, the gameplay is simple and so is the story. But it has so many ways where it seems to me like they said 'should we add depth or cut back and leave the players wishing for more' and chose the latter... it's a game without depth that desperately needs it. Gauntlet is a game without depth that would probably be bad with lots of depth. Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance is a game with a moderate level of depth that would be better with more. Same with Dungeon Siege. Diablo II has a little more which is part of why it's a bit better than those two. BG&E? It's not the same kind of game as those four so a direct comparison is stupid. A better comparison would be games in the genre it is in: adventure/RPG/platformers.

That is, Zelda, Star Fox Adventures, etc. BG&E is more complex than SFA, thankfully (and as I've said SFA makes it look positively deep), but honestly... based purely on story, I care more about the story in SFA. I'm not sure which of the factors I've gone over before is the cause, but I just do not get very engrossed by the world or the story in BG&E. I don't find myself caring all that much for the characters. I do not feel like the world is "real". I don't feel like the story is plausible -- not because it could not happen but because they simplify a story that should be deep and complex to a cartoonish level of simplicity. For Gauntlet that is good, but for BG&E that is most assuredly bad.

As such, I would say that the simple direction they took was the wrong one. The game would be better with deeper combat, more challenging puzzles, real stealth instead of just puzzle rooms, a actual penalty for when you die (as it is it has the oh-so-cruel and incredibly unfair penalty of having to start the room you are in over... oh the horror...), and a story with actual depth! The game does not have those things and it suffers for it.

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OB1

Haha, I hope you know that there are fansites dedicated to how awesome Pauly Shore is as well.

And like I said, it's fine that it's your own opinion and I'm not trying to force mine onto yours, but your opinions are very much "out there" most of the time.

And by that I mean your tastes are terrible.

I never said that the gameplay gets better. If you don't like the gameplay at that point then you're just plain retarded and well, naturally, you have horrible tastes in games. You like Pod, Cruisin', Gaunlet... but not BG&E. Yowza.

Oh yes, because stories that have twists towards the end of the movie are just so darn rare nowadays!!

The story isn't very deep or complex, but it's extremely well-told. It's presentation and method of story-telling is practically unmatched, which is why it gets such praise.

But we've been through this before, remember? You have no concept of what good story-telling is. You think the Baldur's Gate games have great stories despite their massive use of fantasy cliches and horrible, horrible narrative and non-existent method of story-telling. So really I wouldn't expect you to be able to tell good (BG&E) from shit (BG).

Haha, oh wow. Boy, I am really glad that you're not representative of most gamers out there, otherwise we'd be seeing developers cater to the worst possible judge of story quality and gameplay than ever before.

There's really no point in "discussing" this with you, as it's just going over the same retarded opinions you've held for years. I pity you for your lack of good judgement and atrocious tastes, and I will move these posts to our forum.

Geno

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A Black Falcon

It was popular with some people because it isn't your standard futuristic racing game. It has no weapons, boost strips, etc... just racing. So it's a 'purer' racing game than most futuristic ones. It's also got a ridiculously large track variety (once you download all of them, well over 40), awesome track designs, internet play via an online service (a rarity in a game released in 1997! Though sadly Ubisoft shut it down in 2002, it still has splitscreen, LAN, modem, IP, etc), lots of downloadable cars, a good level of challenge, a nice intro video, ghost races (with some websites that had times) and more... very few racing games of the period had half of what Pod offers for options and variety. Oh, and the racing is fun too.

Yes, I disliked the gameplay. Yup. That's why I said it was a good game that would get a B to B+. Oh wait... yeah, like usual it's you wrongly taking my criticism to mean dislike, and like usual you are very, very wrong. Criticism doesn't necessarially mean dislike! I wonder if you'll ever understand that simple fact... it means I don't think the game is perfect, that's all! Yes, it means that I don't like it as much as you do. But it most definitely does not mean that I dislike the game. That would not be true. (expects point to be ignored just like it was all through the Morrowind argument)'

Yes, we've been through the "I'm better than you and know more than you and you are stupid and dumb and clueless so I am right and you are wrong" arguement before and it's just as stupid now as it was then. One does not have to do creative writing to be able to appreciate and criticise it and similarly one does not need to do whatever you seem to think to be able to know what stories you like and which you do not. My opinion on the matter is just as valid as yours is. You just can't handle the fact that anyone could possibly disagree with you so as usual you cover it with insults...

What I care about most is the story it tells. Presentation is one thing, but the actual story that is told is more important. For games that tell stories I look at the story, and the quests, and the writing, and the pacing (how far between story bits (and how consistent it is on that factor) -- one place where Baldur's Gate I is flawed)... presentation? That too, but it's just one factor, not the controlling theme. You clearly disagree, but I just do not look at it the same way you do and you need to learn to cope with it... it has nothing to do with me not understanding storytelling. It has to do with me focusing more on different aspects when I consider how a game told its story. And in my opinion, it's a better approach than yours which focuses so much on the presentation...

Now you say "but what about games with really simple stories that you like, those don't have good stories!" My answer is obvious: When I talk about that I'm talking about it for games where story matters. Story does not matter in Gauntlet or Gradius. Story matters a bit in Diablo, and it is decent and told well enough to keep me playing. Story is told well and is interesting in, say, Ocarina of Time or Link's Awakening. Or Torment. Or Baldur's Gate II (I is not quite on this level).

Now, decent story can't save a game if the gameplay is boring (see Dungeon Siege -- not a fantastic story, and definitely cliche, but I like fantasy so it's good enough that I'd like to see more of it... if the game wasn't so dull. Or Star Fox Adventures, where the story isn't great but has more potential than it shows ingame (just like the rest of the product!), but is still a decent Rare-style adventure storywise).

Oh yeah, and you complain about BG being full of cliches but not about BG&E? How strange... because to me it felt very cliche-driven. Yes, it has some more unique aspects, but barely... the whole story is a very standard sci-fi story. I've seen it many times before. There is certainly nothing special about the story it presents... and I definitely felt the lack. I also, as I said before, really noticed the simplicity of the world... it feels like they read some sci-fi books, decided to make a game based on them, and dropped all of the complexity. Now that Stargate SG-1 episode about the aliens that peacefully took over Earth and many years later the team learns that they actually have a long-term plot to destroy humanity (and have to stop it by sending back in time a message to not contact those aliens), now that I liked...

Now, you say that 'it's well told and that is the most important factor (going along with presentation)'. Well... as I've described before I just did not feel that way overall. Oh, it's a perfectly deI saw in some reader reviews people who said that they liked how as you progressed there got to be protesters against the government because it seemed like you were changing things. I didn't, as I've explained before, because it is another aspect of that cartoonish simplicity which sadly falls into a world with so much more potential and depth of background than that. I mean, I understand that as a console game this isn't trying to compete with the truly great game stories of all time, but they could make SOME effort... look, this is a brutal dictatorship! Anyone expressing opposition should be crushed. The government should be actively trying to infiltrate resistance cells -- I mean, you have a direct line to the governor's mansion, and to a scientist, and have this big base under a bar, and walk around and are seen in restricted areas but in the future the government does not keep a record of insurgents?? I mean, if you aren't seen it's one thing, but if you're seen and they have your picture in some restricted areas they should be searching for you in the streets not happily ignoring you as you walk right past the guards... it's silly and simplistic and it didn't have to be that way. That's the key issue, that it didn't have to be this way... it could have been more and was not. That is why the story aspects are somewhat dissapointing.

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OB1

Correction: Burnout 3 is fun. Pod is poo.

You've only said bad things about BG&E. You have a very interesting way of praising a game! I feel sorry for your future girlfriend.

I never said anything about BG&E's story being original or complex, I said that it was told exceptionally well.

You see, ABF, what you may come to realize one day is that some of the greatest stories every told are ones with fairly simple plots that are told very well. The Woman in the Dunes, King Lear, The Lord of the Rings, To Kill A Mockingbird, Ikiru, The Grand Illusion. All simple stories that are presented in a way that makes them exceptional. You see, it's not all about complexity, it's about presentation, it's about storytelling methods. That's what seperates the Baldur's Gate from the ICO's and Beyond Good and Evils. ICO, for instance, has an extremely simple plot that is told through almost zero understandable dialogue. The reason why the story is so captivating is because of how it tells its story. There's more emotion packed into ICO's story than any other game ever made. BG&E isn't up to ICO's level, but it is above 90% of the games out there. I find it both sad and funny that you think SFA's horrible story is better than BG&E's.

It's too bad you'll probably never be able to realize this. Go on living in your narrow-minded and confused world, ABF. I suppose that's all you can do.

A Black Falcon

Pod is more fun than most racing games out there. That's what counts. The net play was awesome, the downloadable tracks are great, but what matters most is if it is fun... and Pod is. All you have to do is accept that its sense of speed is somewhat lacking and look at the track designs... you clearly couldn't do that, but some people can and they recognize it as the good racing game that it is.

Whenever I post and say any good things you do not respond to them and only respond to the bad things so the good part quickly gets dropped from the discussion. I am absolutely sure that when I first talked about BG&E after getting it I talked about good things too, but "discussion" with you quickly drops such things... you only care about bashing my criticisms.

Also, I have not been purely critical even just in this thread. I've said plenty of ways where BG&E is better than other games (for instance, how I initially criticized the combat in BG&E but then after playing SFA I realized how much worse it could have been and that it wasn't so bad after all... simple, but effective. The lack of difficulty is the true problem there. Though a little more complexity would be nice... more than one button you have to use most of the time to do combos, etc...)... but in BG&E's case the main reason I have focused on my criticisms is because the game got such high praise from people here and the gaming media that since my opinion was a bit different (not totally different, as I'd still give it at least an 8/10!) that I wanted to focus on that part...

If you want good parts, though. It has a nice world, good graphics, good voice acting, good characters, a nice sense of humor, decent combat, and fun enough dungeons... and the main real problems are because of having the PC version (related either to the poorly ported controls or the fact that the framerate sometimes struggles on my quite old videocard -- especially in the hovercraft in some areas...). It really is a fun game. Why haven't I finished it? I don't know, I don't finish a LOT of games and that isn't exactly always a reflection that they are bad... yes, I have criticized the game, and in places where I think it can be justly criticized. The focus on that really is probably a reflection of the fact that after so much hype I was expecting great things and got good ones.

Thinking about my last post I realized that I said that about SFA but forgot to explain... I meant to say more. SFA's plot is indeed kind of stupid. It's lacking in details and explanations (like how the planet can eject those big parts and they orbit with gravity and atmosphere etc...), and it serves to a large extent to explain why you need to collect more things to be sure, and yes it is not as good as BG&E's, but at least it is consistent with the kind of game that it is trying to be. That's a simple game and it has a simple plot. BG&E is a more complex game made simple which should have more.

Look, I know that they want a simple game. But everything I am thinking of does not require a full rewrite of the game. For instance, the Alpha Sections should be breaking up the protests that occur in town. You don't need to go for full realism and stuff, but they should be breaking up the protesters regularly. Also, as the game progresses you MUST have come to the attention of the Alpha Sections. When you go to town the soldiers should be trying to catch you... yes, that would be annoying, so have some excuse to get them away... a rebellion, disguises to infiltrate the town (that's a good idea actually), etc... In addition they need to show more secrecy and caution on the part of the rebels. There is slight mention of it but the game pretty much ignores it... you get into this rebel group really easily and they talk about cells but given how they have contacts straight to the governor... well it seems like if many more groups do as well it's a house of cards predicated on the idea that their calls will never be intercepted... silly... even IF something happens later in the story it'd be hard to explain why it'd happened as it had before. I think the problem is (on this matter) that the world they created has so many more possibilities to be more dynamic and open and they designed it like any past console game... static and not believable. Obviously you were able to just overlook things like this and get enveloped by the game's great artwork, sense of style, speech, etc, but they bugged me and hurt my appreciation of this very storytelling that you are saying I am ignoring...

Now, I don't know most of your references (just LOTR and To Kill a Mockingbird), and I have only played a very little of Ico, so I have trouble understanding exactly what you think is good storytelling for games. On that note... Lord of the Rings has a simple plot? No. No, it does not. It may have a simple theme (though that is debatable), but it has a very complex and intricate plot and world.

BG(I) vs BG&E, though... I don't like that comparison. I would rather compare BGII and BG&E since BGII is so vastly improved in storytelling over the original. But even so it's very hard since they are so different in almost every way. It's hard to compare things that have almost nothing in common! I could compare them (and started to), but then I realized that it's pointless. We do not agree. I do not consider having to read lots of text boxes bad storytelling. I care more about the story that is being told. Now, if that story is boring then yes that is poor storytelling, but it isn't poor storytelling just by the fact that you must read text boxes. It'd be nearly impossible to voice everything in a BGII, after all, so something must go (KotOR does it by reducing the amount that is said and not voicing aliens. And because it's Lucasarts-published and if there is one thing Lucasarts does well it is sound.). Now, I like voice in games for sure, but I don't consider it a breaking point for game fun, and I don't understand why you seem to. Yes, it improves immersion. That is true. But there are so many other factors that deserve equal treatment...

Yes, you'll say 'you don't understand', or that I am wrong. Then you'll probably mention voiceless Ico... but Ico doesn't have text-boxes either really, just visuals. What can I say about Ico? Not much, though of what I have seen I can say that it's got beautiful visual style and very nice artwork in a fun-looking puzzle game...and that if it is the style telling the story that in that case it could work with how well done it is there. But there are many ways to tell a good story... Ico does it through art. Most do it through more conventional means, with conversation probably being the main one...

Now, I remember your complaint about Baldur's Gate (how the game has lacking visuals that don't show emotion or much detail and the text just gives what they are saying not any narration), and I guess that that is true... but for me, it just is not a problem. Yes, BG&E does a great job of setting the scene and presenting a world in images as well as in words, but...

Well, I've said it a million times before about your opinion on Baldur's Gate and I still think that it is accurate.

"Imagination". Use some, and BG's minor "issues" on this matter become irrelevant. If you believe in it it will be engrossing. You will yourself not to so of course you dislike it!

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OB1

I'm glad you finally admit that the PC version is ass. Why on earth someone would play a Zelda-like game on the PC is beyond me. You're nuts.



I don't know if you're just plain stupid or just plain stupid. BG&E has a fairly simple plot that's told extremely well. That's why everyone praised it. Now you're trying to say that it fails because the plot is supposed to be complex but ends up being too simple??




You didn't even finish the game, stupid!

LotR has a very simple plot for how long it is. That doesn't mean that it lacks depth, which is why you are so confused. It has a simple plot (trouble in land, ring needs to be destroyed, people destroy ring), but its execution is what makes it so complex. All of those other examples are the same. Simple plots, complex execution.

ICO does not tell its story through art.

Wow, what a great idea! I bet imagination will also make Superman 64 a good game, since I can imagine good controls and awesome graphics! You're a GENIUS!!

A Black Falcon

(Pod)

Yes, yes, we know, you like to act like a three year old here, must we have more proof?

Uhh... I've described in depth many times the flaws of the PC version. Where you are wrong is where you take the leap from 'the BG&E PC version is badly ported' to 'such games never work on the PC'. That first is true. That second is idiotic and obviously wrong. BG&E would be a perfectly good PC game if they'd just bothered to put in gamepad controls, a true analog option for movement, and a check through the game to make sure it had no bugs with keyboard controls. Oh, more performance optimization would be nice too, but with a videocard as old as mine I should just be happy it runs at all... but anyway, yes the port is bad but that says nothing for action-adventure games on the PC. It only says things about this one game.

The simplicity of the basic plot isn't the problem... the problem is the lack of plausibility in the events past that. A story creates a world. The story should be plausible by the rules that world is governed by (consistent magic systems, etc). As I explained that just isn't true here to a large enough extent that I could completely ignore the flaws.

I'm 2/3rds through and how does that have anything to do with that part? I know enough about the game to know that the rest of the game is no different from the first two thirds.

BG&E doesn't have much depth in plot OR execution... my argument is that it should.

I mean a more artistic approach to storytelling as opposed to a more literary one...

'Imagination' is just the best term I thought of when you first brought up this issue. I had never considered it before when playing BG-type games... I just played it, loved the game, and got immersed into the world. I didn't really consider why I was immersed or why I felt the game was so great and so well done... but that question of yours made me think about it and I used that term to stand in for the fact that to like BG you have to have some kind of involvement or liking for the game. You have to believe in some fashion that this is "your" party wandering around and you have to want to progress to figure out the next piece of the puzzle to your heritage... and you have to like the world it is set in (especially with how repetitive BG1 is with so many empty forests... it tests even big D&D fans in that way, I'd say. BGII was a massive improvement.). You do not meet any of those things so I guess when you played it you were looking for ways to dislike it. And as I said, when you approach anything looking for the bad things, you'll usually see them... (have I been guilty of that sometimes? Probably, sure, everyone does)

But if you play it from the approach of 'this is my character and I am role-playing it to figure out what is going on' you can have a good time and really like it. You just have to get used to and ignore little things like how there are about six NPC sprites and houses and inns look so amazingly similar. I can ignore such things and only be minimally annoyed. As for the conversations, I found that the mini portraits, the line of speech (for important conversations), and the character art was plenty for me to get a sense of the character and their tone. You clearly wanted more, but that was plenty for me and for most people who played the game. Because I am absolutely sure, you are in a decided minority on your opinion of the Baldur's Gate games. You have no stupid "you are wrong because everyone says so" 'ground' to stand on on THIS one.

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OB1

Seriously, the game sucks.

Wow, more shit that you've made up in that retarded mind of yours. I never said such things were impossible to do well on the PC, since all it would need is true analogue gamepad support. I was saying that most console-PC ports don't offer such controls, BG&E included. Do I really have to dig up those posts where you vehemently defended the the PC version's "perfectly fine" controls?

Your flaws are imaginary. It's your grasp of the story that is flawed. And your problems with the game are the same problems that are in any game: static worlds. Dynamic (good) storytelling is not yet possible in games, so this nitpicking of BG&E in particular is very hypocritical of you.

Seriously, you really don't know what a good story is. You've proven that already. MANY times.

Right, because stories usually don't have climaxes and twists towards the end.

I think this image is appropriate again:



You don't even understand what I mean by plot and execution, so your opinion is moot.

You haven't even played the game for a few seconds, have you?

I have no problem with you liking BG. But the fact still stands: the story is ass. Cliched story with non-existent presentation. And your idea of using "imagination" to enjoy the game... Like I said it's a great idea! I could enjoy so many terrible games if I would just use my imagination!

A Black Falcon

As you keep saying to me, why must you continue to dig your own grave?

Uh, it's things like that that I am refuting! Most console ports that have analog on consoles DO have an analog option on PC! Most definitely! BG&E is in a small minority here... I only have one other console port that is best played with a gamepad that doesn't have gamepad support, and that is also a poor port (Norse by Norsewest)... but most by far definitely give you the analog option if you have an analog stick.

In the case of BG&E, the controls are fine most of the time. You can adjust to this control scheme. My annoyance in this post is really because of that one part I cannot complete... which shows that they were not paying attention when making it. But most of the time the control scheme works, even if it is not ideal. And I know I've said plenty of times that it should have had gamepad support like the Rayman PC ports have, for instance.

No, not static as in it needs to change on the fly, but static in the sense that a console RPG is static... really, BG&E on this feels like one of those, while I was hoping for something closer to a PC RPG feel... what do I mean by that? What I described -- the guards in town don't recognize you as a threat, you get seen by cameras in the levels with no ill effects for more than thirty seconds, etc, etc... it's like a console RPG where such things don't matter, versus say a Fallout where you can be sure that they would. And when the setting is a sci-fi world that easily could be more plausible I see the problem for the problem that it is, when I think about the game critically.

Like, after going into this one area in town and getting some pearls you have to run away from some guards for a while until you get back into the main area... okay, great! So now the guards in town will be more on alert and will be watching out for someone of my general description, right? Oh wait, nope, no change... sad.

Let me guess, do they (GASP!) raid the Iris Network base? That would be SO SHOCKING! Seriously, there have been no "plot twists" that I haven't seen coming miles off and given the reviews of the game I don't think the rest of the game has any real surprises either.

And your repeated use of idiotic images to supposedly help make your points just reinforces your childishness.

The fact remains, you hate D&D for some idiotic reason so you play a D&D game and, shock, dislike it! If you came into the game thinking 'I like D&D' or even neutral you would have liked it for sure, but you... oh no. Not an option.

Cliche story? Somewhat, sure, but there's nothing wrong with that if it's done well. And BGII is not nearly as cliched as the first game. Okay, it's not totally unique, but it isn't anywhere near as simple (in execution especially, the basic idea isn't too complex but the execution is fantastic with lots of depth and twists along the way) as BGI's 'you are special in some way you don't know and people want to kill you because of it' plot. So your argument there may be true for BGI, but definitely not for BGII. Which as I've said all along is the better game.

Presentation? I again have to disagree with your assertion that it has horrible presentation... I do not feel that having well written conversations with interesting characters who, if they are really important, have small portraits and unique character sprites (though only a few NPCs have those things they are major characters), in a great looking and interesting world effectively presented with very nice artwork and sound effects, is bad to nonexistant presentation. Not in the least. I still can't quite figure out why you hate these things (the 2d artwork, lack of spoken text, etc), but your continual hiding behind "you don't understand anything" is lame and is dodging the fact that I know more than enough to have opinions. That "point" would only have the slightest shred of fact behind it if I had never played RPGs or something, but that is most definitely not true and I can express my opinions on what is good game storytelling just as well as anyone else can. You just detest the idea that anyone could possibly disagree with you so much that your best coping strategy is to try to deny that they can try to make points... it's stupid, and it's dodging the issue, but it helps you sleep at night I guess. And it keeps you from actually having to address much of any of the issues I bring up to, freeing your posts for more insults! Perfect!

As for "imagination", there's something you're missing. What is Baldur's Gate trying to be? It's trying to be D&D in a computer game. What does D&D have for graphics? Yeah, pretty much none. It's all about imagination. So while a PC game will try to lessen that with things like world graphics to set the scene and character art to give basic ideas of what things look like, the game SHOULD have some aspects in it that require imagination if it wants to be a good representation of the tabletop game... I know it cannot offer the choices and options in combat that you can think up in your head, but the BG games do the best job they can at being great D&D adventures. (that is to say, BG is made for D&D fans, a market predisposed to base their opinions of things on what they can do with them and the verbal aspect as opposed to the graphical one, so having a game with the focus of the story on the verbal and not on the grapical (though the graphical definitely matters a lot in the game for things like setting (with BG's beautiful background artwork!)) is not a bad thing.)

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OB1

You're the king of wit, Brian.

Oh really? Well then by all means, list the console ports that offer console control options! Since it's "most of them", it should be easy to find a few dozen games, right?

Or are you just talking out of your ass again? Hmm...

Oh so from that point on they should make it so you can't freely walk through that town? Yeah what a great idea, restrict access to the only town in the game! You should become a game designer, ABF!



This is again a Morrowind situation with you. Instead of earning an opinion on something for your own you rely on reviews and blind guesses. You're such an idiot!

When dealing with a childish moron, one must use childish methods.

Yeah guess what... the story is done really poorly.

That's because you're an ignoramus, silly. I thought that was obvious.

I've addressed each and every one of these issues at least three times over in the past, so at this point I just sigh and think about what an idiot you are.

So if Superman 64 were also based off of D&D could I excuse its flaws for being in line with D&D's "imagination" rule?

Hey you and your imagination have a great time playing Baldur's Gate. I really hope you have fun. Perhaps after you're done playing it you could go out to dinner with your imaginary girlfriend and eat an imaginary cake! Save some for me!

Dark Jaguar

Ugh, can't we just agree you both have serious problems?

Look, you two have your own forum for this stuff. I could say who I think is right or wrong, but I basically just skimmed it (the ACTUAL truth is I know it would be pointless, and no whichever one of you is about to interpret that as me being on your side, I am NOT on your side).

__________________
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

A Black Falcon

PC Games I own that were first on consoles

with gamepad support (programmed into the game)
Rayman 1: Full gamepad support
Rayman 2: Full gamepad support
Rayman 3: full dual-analog gamepad/joystick support.
Future Cop LAPD: supports digital gamepads. I assume that on the PS1 it was digital-only as well.
Drome Racers: full gamepad support
Secret Weapons over Normandy: full gamepad/joystick support
Rogue Squadron 3D: full gamepad/joystick support
Extreme-G 2: full gamepad support
Rollcage Stage II: full gamepad support
Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo: full gamepad support
Mega Man X: gamepad support
Mega Man X4: gamepad support
Mega Man X5: gamepad support
Driver (I think it was on console first...): gamepad support, I'm pretty sure
Centipede: same as previous

Without gamepad support
Giants: Citizen Kabuto: plays better on keyboard/mouse than it ever could with a gamepad anyway, and it might actually support them for all I know (not that it'd matter, the game is meant to be controlled with keyboard/mouse)
Oni: no gamepad support, and it's not needed. Plays great on keyboard/mouse.
Norse By Norsewest: The Return of the Lost Vikings: no gamepad support, idiotically. A flaw in the game.
Beyond Good & Evil: same as previous

And adding to that my experience with a great many demos, it is quite rare to find a console-style game that does not support gamepads. Quite rare.

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OB1

Actually I'm pretty sure you'd be on ABF's side judging by your numerous failed attempts to annoy me in the past couple of days.

And really, this has become more fun for me over the months. I've gotten to understand ABF's personality so well over the years that there's nothing better than seeing the most narrow-minded and stubborn person in the world try to defend the most retarded views and opinions I have ever heard of before.

OB1

I'm talking about true analogue support, dorkus. Any game can have keyboard keys mapped to gamepad buttons, but analogue support is a totally different thing.

OB1

Also, DJ, if you don't like the arguing nobody is forcing you to come into this forum. I don't know how it works with you, but I have to consciously click on a link to get to this forum, so I have a choice in whether or not I want to see these posts. As a matter of fact that works for all of the threads here and elsewhere on the internet! It's crazy how much control you have over these things!

A Black Falcon

I suggested having to put on a disguise before entering town or something like that... simple. And perhaps if you get too close to guards they should chase your for a short time and then return to their post. Nothing super complex, but even little touches like that would be great.

I have played more than enough of the game to get a very good sense of how it works and how it tells its story!

I keep trying to remind myself that you are childish and won't read what I write, but I can't help writing long replies anyway most of the time... nice of you to remind me again though that you aren't worth that kind of time.

I don't need to think about 'using my imagination' to like a Baldur's Gate game. All I have to do is play it. Play it, get attached to the characters, get interested in the world and the quest... it's a engrossing, complex, and deep game that is one of the best RPG concepts ever. And I'm sad that you can't see it. You attack the great background art, you attack the character design, you attack the writing, you attack pretty much everything that makes the game great... and then you act like it is the only natural thing for your opinion to be right! Is it any wonder that I keep saying how stupid you are about this? I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your opinion, but the way you keep acting like your opinion is LAW... that is just idiotic. What you say is your OPINION on what makes a story great! Not the factual definition of what makes a story great! YOUR OPINION! Mine is not in agreement with yours! Deal with it!

The insults are a pitiful cover for your dislike of actually providing even half of the level of detail for your positions that I provide in just about every post.

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Dark Jaguar

Thank you for cooperating. That was nice of whoever moved this. It shows you agree with me at any rate about these arguments needing to be confined elsewhere.

__________________
"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question." ~ Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

OB1

There are tons of logistics like that that go on in games and as a designer you have to decide what's important and what's not. Ancel and his team made the decision that working on something like a disguise and various other logistical details weren't worth the time and effort (the cons outweighing the pros, and not just for time) since games aren't always logical. You're the only one complaining about it, and only because you like to complain about stupid little things.

I'm specifically talking about the last third of the game. You've already made up your mind on something you haven't experienced!

*sigh*

I'm glad you've decided not to make ten-page posts for the time being.

You just said that you do...

When did I ever do that?

I'm perfectly fine with you liking the game, I actually think that it's a pretty fun series as well. But we're talking about its storytelling merit, which I believe to be extremely poor.

And I'm right.

I've already stated why I refuse to go over this again.

OB1

Hey weirdo, I moved these posts to this thread a whole two days before you made that post complaining about it.

A Black Falcon

When you went at games with 2d art and said 3d was so infinitely superior you attack 2d by association, and BG was definitely mentioned many times there...

I just start writing and whenever I'm done I'm done...

I know it's "little", but the little details make the world convincing! That's just an example. It's the lack of too many of those details that harms the plausibility of the world and makes me care less about the gameworld and the characters. Not true for you sure, but it is for me. Great artwork can't cover everything...

I'm sure I'll finish it someday, it's not a particularly long game. But a game builds its world and its perspective over time, not just with some specific incidents... and BG&E built a world as I have described (with both good and bad connotations).

Nitpicking? I guess in games that I want to like I look at some smaller details... as I'm sure you remember I did the same to KotOR (though I also did spend more time on its good side). But I am a pessimist by nature...

Funny, it's gotten less fun for me... you used to be more reasonable, but now... dealing with you is worse than ever. I've come very close several times over the past month or two to blocking you like DJ did...

But that's because I actually wish for debate while all you want to do is insult me, which you obviously find fun.

As I've already described, that was my explanation I thought of after the fact when you stated your opinion... not something I conciously considered when first playing Baldur's Gate... I just played it and thought that it was great.

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OB1

Wha? I've always considered Yoshi's Island to be one of the greatest-looking games ever made, so you must have misunderstood whatever I said.

Well that is your loss.

And dumb...

When it's the same debate we've been over a dozen times before, I'm not going to go through with it again.

Congrats.

A Black Falcon

I guess I keep hoping that one of these times you will learn some sense.

Simply, it was hugely hyped by people who played it but I don't think it quite deserved that amount of attention. I think the attention (among harder core gamers) was increased a lot by its lack of retail success beyond the point where it deserved... oh well, it probably sold a few more copies so it's not so bad.

I'll try to find the arguement...

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OB1

Good one.

It deserves every bit of praise it got and then some. You are definitely in the minority here.