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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #1
A Black Falcon
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Default Hey Weltall...

Admit defeat.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/10/2...reut/index.html

The only remaining question is, 'what about bisexuals'...
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #2
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its interesting...

But this would have to be tested on humans.

Amathrodilia is a rare form of birth defection so this discovery could help them instead continuing the practice of all placing them as females.

But it is often said that some people have very feminin characteristics but are not homosexuals or transgenderd.They may be a Male with some female straits but not neccesarily gay or transgenderd.Some of it is outside influeince and enviromental and maybe a bit chemical.

There are some individuals who say they are attracted to children(pediphilia) which is to me somthing created by themselves and was not biological or genetic.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #3
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Yeah, its a complex issue, and I'm sure that some things are environmental... pedophilia well might be, I don't know.

And yes, some 'homosexual' people might have done it by environment or their own mind... the mind is a strange and powerful thing, after all.

My point really is that true homosexuals are NOT making a choice. It is now a genetically proven fact. Are all homosexuals 'true' homosexuals? Probably not. But that really is beside the point... related issue, but not the same one.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #4
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I have some gay friends, and one formerly-gay friend. This guy used to feel attracted towards other men, but he got help and actually managed to overcome it. He grew up normally just like you and me so I do think that it could be genetic, but he was able to overcome it over time so I do not believe that you're stuck with it for life. Obviously homosexuality goes against nature since we're naturally attracted to the opposite sex in order to mate and produce offspring, so it is most likely some sort of defect. A defect that--for some people at least--can be cured. I know that calling it a defect sounds harsh and I do feel kind of bad about saying that since I have some gay friends, but I can't think of another word for it.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #5
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To me there is no one direct reason ,It seems to me there is more then one reason why people become the way they are.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #6
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Wellyes, being homosexual clearly isn't what nature would want. 'Defect'? Sounds somewhat harsh... for most homosexuals though I would think that it is a genetic thing. Something goes wrong somewhere and they end up different from the rest of their gender... there are a lot of physical differences between men and women (genetically and mentally), as that article makes clear, and who knows how many of them have to mess up for people to have some kind of non-normal sexuality... but I would think that for most people who are homosexual that is the reason. Choice? Maybe a very few, but that is in no way the same... you can convince yourself of most anything, but deep down you do have some kind of genetic predisposition. And then your early-life experiences shape most of the rest of your brain... once you hit a certain age, changing your brain becomes pretty hard. So whether these things happen because of genetics, or genetics and very early life experience, or (as is probably the case), the person themselves makes no choices. Not even people with pedophilia... I very much doubt anyone would choose something like that!

One direct reason? Maybe not. Most things, after all, come from a mixture of various factors, all of them important...

Oh yeah, and I never believe those 'I was cured of my homosexuality' stories. For almost all homosexuals that just is not physically possible.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #7
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I remember a white eye gene for fruit flies having the side effect of essentially turning them gay as well, and I heard that a LONG time before this. Of course, most insect minds are purely instinctual, and it's as likely as not that they are more or less biological computers rather than aware of existance, but just saying'...

Just a note, all narcoleptic dogs have that caused by a single defective gene. However, in humans, though the narcolepsy is pretty much the same, the cause has been shown to not be that at all, but rather some sort of chemical imbalance, possibly caused by stress and environment. All they know so far is that while dogs and humans have the same symptoms, the cause is totally different. That is all.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #8
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ABF, calling it a defect and saying "Something goes wrong somewhere and they end up different from the rest of their gender" is basically the same thing.

And honestly, I don't care if you don't believe in any of those "gay-turned-straight" stories. You've taken a side and no matter what you will stick to it. You don't care about the actual truth, just what you want to believe. Some gay people can turn straight, be that from taking therapy, medication, or whatever. But it is possible no matter what your stubborn mind thinks. This whole "but deep down they'll always feel that way" theory is complete bullshit. Human beings are meant to feel attracted towards the opposite sex so that they can mate and have children. Gay people cannot produce children, and almost all creatures on this planet have whatever sexual orientation it is that allows them to mate and produce offspring. That is the simple truth. So really, if you're going to use that "deep down inside" argument then you have to say that deep down inside all gay people must have at least some of that natural heterosexual inclination.

Just like everything else in life, defects happen. Some people are born with mental illnesses, physical defects, etc. What makes homosexuality different? I'm not saying that gay people are bad or anything like that, just that their orientation is not natural and therefor a type of defect, for lack of a better word. I don't think of homosexuals any differently than I think of people with chemical inbalances (you know what I mean) or any other mental or physical defect. Most of us have some sort of defect that we were either born with or happened to get later on in life. Defects like severe social anxiety, bad eyesite, poor lungs etc. Some are more severe than others, and some can be cured, with different ways of curing them by different means (a person with some sort of axiety due to a chemical inbalance might be better off with therapy than drugs, for example). The main difference between those defects and homosexuality is that people with glasses or bad athsma won't be discriminated against or labeled as being "evil" by millions of people.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #9
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And honestly, I don't care if you don't believe in any of those "gay-turned-straight" stories. You've taken a side and no matter what you will stick to it. You don't care about the actual truth, just what you want to believe. Some gay people can turn straight, be that from taking therapy, medication, or whatever. But it is possible no matter what your stubborn mind thinks. This whole "but deep down they'll always feel that way" theory is complete bullshit. Human beings are meant to feel attracted towards the opposite sex so that they can mate and have children. Gay people cannot produce children, and almost all creatures on this planet have whatever sexual orientation it is that allows them to mate and produce offspring. That is the simple truth. So really, if you're going to use that "deep down inside" argument then you have to say that deep down inside all gay people must have at least some of that natural heterosexual inclination.

How odd... you seem to be on both sides or something... but some of what you say is just wrong. All people want to have children? Okay... that is quite possible. But if you are not attracted to people in the other gender doing it the "natural" way will never give them any pleasure... you cannot deny that! They probably in some way want children, but they don't want to have them heterosexually... can you tell the difference there? That's why I think they often adopt.

Anyone who was gay and can turn straight in all probablility was never really gay to begin with. That's what I think. It was probably just in their head... and that is a decided minority of homosexuals from all accounts I've ever seen.
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Just like everything else in life, defects happen. Some people are born with mental illnesses, physical defects, etc. What makes homosexuality different? I'm not saying that gay people are bad or anything like that, just that their orientation is not natural and therefor a type of defect, for lack of a better word. I don't think of homosexuals any differently than I think of people with chemical inbalances (you know what I mean) or any other mental or physical defect. Most of us have some sort of defect that we were either born with or happened to get later on in life. Defects like severe social anxiety, bad eyesite, poor lungs etc. Some are more severe than others, and some can be cured, with different ways of curing them by different means (a person with some sort of axiety due to a chemical inbalance might be better off with therapy than drugs, for example). The main difference between those defects and homosexuality is that people with glasses or bad athsma won't be discriminated against or labeled as being "evil" by millions of people.

Now this part I pretty much agree with. The only question is, 'how deep does homosexuality go'? If its as deep as studies like the one I linked seem to suggest I'm not so sure that drugs will help... it seems that its among our most basic areas, and is actually (at least in some cases) linked to our physical form (in specific the brain). Now of course we don't know any details of this yet... for a more complete analysis we'll have to wait quite some time. But genetic things are often not just treatable with drugs... sure, if we can lock it down maybe in the future with genetic engineering we could make people based on some blueprint (like in so many sci-fi stories), but can you 'treat' people with genetic flaws? It depends on the problem... in some cases yes and in others no. Homosexuality just seems to be too basic to be treatable, and most all rescearch I've seen supports that. At least at this point, who knows about the future...
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #10
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How odd... you seem to be on both sides or something...

You think it's odd because you see everything in black and white. To you it's either "it's only genetic and there's no way to cure it" or "it's their fault and gays are evil!". You refuse to listen to anyone else and instead prefer to stick to your very specific side. I'm open to suggestion, which is why I have no clear-cut side.
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but some of what you say is just wrong. All people want to have children? Okay... that is quite possible. But if you are not attracted to people in the other gender doing it the "natural" way will never give them any pleasure... you cannot deny that! They probably in some way want children, but they don't want to have them heterosexually... can you tell the difference there? That's why I think they often adopt.

You misunderstood me. All people have the natural instinct to mate and produce offspring because that is the only way we can keep our species alive. I doubt that ever single human being wants to have children, but I am pretty damn certain that every single capable human being has the urge to have sex. If everyone was gay then there would be no next generation, and all beings would have ceased to exist at the very beginning of this planet's life. The key difference between the way us humans make children and the way every other living creatures does it is that love comes into play for us. When it's only animal instinct then you know it. You just want to fulfill that sexual desire. But love is a completely different thing. If the only thing you care about is bangin' another person then, well, your life is probably pretty empty. Love for another human being is a separate thing from pure animal lust. I don't think I have to explain that. Does that make sense to you?
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Anyone who was gay and can turn straight in all probability was never really gay to begin with. That's what I think. It was probably just in their head... and that is a decided minority of homosexuals from all accounts I've ever seen.

How many gay people do you know? You're being a hypocrite right now, saying that one is only "truly" gay if it's completely genetic and unchangeable. I don't believe you honestly believe in that. Think about it for a moment.
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Now this part I pretty much agree with. The only question is, 'how deep does homosexuality go'? If its as deep as studies like the one I linked seem to suggest I'm not so sure that drugs will help... it seems that its among our most basic areas, and is actually (at least in some cases) linked to our physical form (in specific the brain). Now of course we don't know any details of this yet... for a more complete analysis we'll have to wait quite some time. But genetic things are often not just treatable with drugs... sure, if we can lock it down maybe in the future with genetic engineering we could make people based on some blueprint (like in so many sci-fi stories), but can you 'treat' people with genetic flaws? It depends on the problem... in some cases yes and in others no. Homosexuality just seems to be too basic to be treatable, and most all rescearch I've seen supports that. At least at this point, who knows about the future...

I don't think that drugs will help in most cases, but I know for a fact that it is curable. Genetic disorders can be treated by means of therapy and/or serious mental solving. My brother Brian suffers from schizophrenia which he got from his mother (not my mother; we only share the same father). It came to him when he was in college and at age 40 he still suffers from it, but not nearly as much as he used to. He took medication for several years and it only temporarily helped him. The way he has been able to mend this mental illness is basically by sheer will-power. I won't get into the details of how he has been able to do this, but I can tell you that medication was not the answer. It's a mental illness that required serious "mental reorganization" as he likes to put it, and today he is better than he's been in decades. I saw this happen, and I saw one of my friends turn from gay to straight. Right now he (my formally-gay friend, not my brother Brian) is married to a wonderful woman and he couldn't be happier. Whenever he had doubts about his sexuality he didn't keep it a secret, so if he still had some of those feelings I would know about it.
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Mon, October 20th, 2003   #11
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I'm not convinced, and it doesn't seem like the researchers are either. For one thing, most of that article has nothing to do with homosexuality, save for a bold, and most likely wrong statement about it definitely being hard-wired. Seems to me much of the article is based on differences between male and female brains which, while interesting, doesn't prove anything pertaining to our argument. "Our findings may explain why we feel male or female, regardless of our actual anatomy," sounds to me like the more reserved conclusion of someone who's not entirely sure.

In any case, while this study does side with your opinion, it hardly makes it case fact. So no, I'm not admitting I'm wrong on the basis of one study on mouse brains.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #12
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Never expected you to, Weltall... it would have surprised me quite a lot.

And this does say that sexuality is genetically controlled, at least to some (probably high) degree! How can you read that and come up with any other conclusion? Wait, I know... its called "denial".

If you feel male you would generally like women, and vice versa... now sure there are all kinds of shades of grey in this issue, but that really shows how much we don't know yet about this issue... we need more research.
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You think it's odd because you see everything in black and white. To you it's either "it's only genetic and there's no way to cure it" or "it's their fault and gays are evil!". You refuse to listen to anyone else and instead prefer to stick to your very specific side. I'm open to suggestion, which is why I have no clear-cut side.

Nope. Try reading my post. I say that behavior/environment definitely has a big influence on the brain... but genetics is deeper. Though, as I said, if you try you can convince yourself of almost anything... but the genetic element will always be there.
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You misunderstood me. All people have the natural instinct to mate and produce offspring because that is the only way we can keep our species alive. I doubt that ever single human being wants to have children, but I am pretty damn certain that every single capable human being has the urge to have sex. If everyone was gay then there would be no next generation, and all beings would have ceased to exist at the very beginning of this planet's life. The key difference between the way us humans make children and the way every other living creatures does it is that love comes into play for us. When it's only animal instinct then you know it. You just want to fulfill that sexual desire. But love is a completely different thing. If the only thing you care about is bangin' another person then, well, your life is probably pretty empty. Love for another human being is a separate thing from pure animal lust. I don't think I have to explain that. Does that make sense to you?

And how does this pertain to this discussion? I don't really see how it does... homosexuals would see both in their own gender...
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How many gay people do you know? You're being a hypocrite right now, saying that one is only "truly" gay if it's completely genetic and unchangeable. I don't believe you honestly believe in that. Think about it for a moment.

A few...

And I don't mean that they aren't gay if it's not genetic... I'd just call it a slightly different category.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #13
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Nope. Try reading my post. I say that behavior/environment definitely has a big influence on the brain... but genetics is deeper. Though, as I said, if you try you can convince yourself of almost anything... but the genetic element will always be there.

And I never said that I disagreed with that. However, I'm open to other ideas while you and Weltall are not. You are just going to stick to the sides that you chose and not listen to a thing the other person says.
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And how does this pertain to this discussion? I don't really see how it does... homosexuals would see both in their own gender...

They would bare children? Wow, that's news to me. I used to think that two people of the same sex couldn't reproduce. Guess I was wrong.

You missed my point. The reason why most people are straight is because that is the only way we can reproduce. Our natural instinct is to mate with another member of the opposite sex, and we have that instinct in order to have children. There is no benefit from two gay people having sex. They cannot reproduce, so it is against what nature intended. That's all I'm saying.
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A few...

And I don't mean that they aren't gay if it's not genetic... I'd just call it a slightly different category.

You say that because that's the only way you can fit certain facts into your very narrow-minded point-of-view.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #14
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They would bare children? Wow, that's news to me. I used to think that two people of the same sex couldn't reproduce. Guess I was wrong.

You missed my point. The reason why most people are straight is because that is the only way we can reproduce. Our natural instinct is to mate with another member of the opposite sex, and we have that instinct in order to have children. There is no benefit from two gay people having sex. They cannot reproduce, so it is against what nature intended. That's all I'm saying.

All kinds of people are born with things 'against what nature intended'... so? Do you have a point?
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You say that because that's the only way you can fit certain facts into your very narrow-minded point-of-view.

I haven't seen any real facts that contradict it.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #15
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All kinds of people are born with things 'against what nature intended'... so? Do you have a point?

That is the point. That's how all creatures are. Some of these defects are treatable while others aren't. Homosexuality is, in some cases. I suppose that all depends on how and why a person is that way.
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I haven't seen any real facts that contradict it.



Why am I not surprised by that comment?
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #16
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That is the point. That's how all creatures are. Some of these defects are treatable while others aren't. Homosexuality is, in some cases. I suppose that all depends on how and why a person is that way.

Yes, it does... as I have said already.
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Why am I not surprised by that comment?

Because you don't seem to understand how someone could be strongly one one side of political debate...
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #17
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Yes, it does... as I have said already.

No, what you have been saying this entire time is that homosexuality is like other mental and physical defects in every way except for the "fact" that it cannot be cured, because you say so. You can see how it fits in with everything else but decide that certain major aspects have to be excluded because then the argument that you've stuck to for so long would have to change.
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Because you don't seem to understand how someone could be strongly one one side of political debate...

Oh I understand alright. You do not care to find out the actual truth on this matter. You're so stubborn that you will listen to absolutely zero reason from any opposing side.
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No, what you have been saying this entire time is that homosexuality is like other mental and physical defects in every way except for the "fact" that it cannot be cured, because you say so. You can see how it fits in with everything else but decide that certain major aspects have to be excluded because then the argument that you've stuck to for so long would have to change.

Bingo.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #19
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No, what you have been saying this entire time is that homosexuality is like other mental and physical defects in every way except for the "fact" that it cannot be cured, because you say so. You can see how it fits in with everything else but decide that certain major aspects have to be excluded because then the argument that you've stuck to for so long would have to change.

See... the at the end of that statement was meant to signify that I knew I don't actually completely agree with you, but if you take that statement a different way it could support my position...

And are there really other 'defects' on this level that are treatable? Sure, plenty of mental things can be treated... but I'd say that this is different. Deeper, for sure...
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Oh I understand alright. You do not care to find out the actual truth on this matter. You're so stubborn that you will listen to absolutely zero reason from any opposing side.

I'd love to know the whole truth, but none of us do because that research hasn't been conducted yet.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #20
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Creating a victim where none exists is what you're doing. I mean, why would there be pride parades held to celebrate a mental or genetic illness? I mean, I can believe that someone who dresses up for a parade in bare-ass leathers and calls themselves "Timmy and Tommy, the Testicle Twins" has some screws loose, but those people are a minority, and their depravity probably is due to things other than their sexual preference. I know several gay people, work with several, and I don't believe for a second that any of them suffer from any sort of genetic or mental illness. They seem normal to me, other than the choice they make.

Now, we can, and have, argued until we're blue in the fingers over the matter, and OB1's right: You never budge and neither do I. Given some widely-accepted study one of us will probably be forced to one day, but for now, single and anomalous studies that think homosexuality "may" be out of someone's control is very far from the ironclad law of science you make it to be. My beliefs are based on my own personal knowledge of biology and psychology, and what OB1 says is true: Some arguments do favor your position, but for it to be absolute you must ignore several glaring discrepancies that keep creeping in, as you seem to be saying that homosexuality is not only a malady of the genes or biology, but such an incredibly different malady from any other known to science that several known broad facts about both biology and psychology that do not allow for such a thing to be possible simply do not matter in this single case.

So no, I'm not conceding based on this very iffy and unsubstantiated single finding, and I'd be crazy if I did.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #21
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See... the at the end of that statement was meant to signify that I knew I don't actually completely agree with you, but if you take that statement a different way it could support my position...

And are there really other 'defects' on this level that are treatable? Sure, plenty of mental things can be treated... but I'd say that this is different. Deeper, for sure...

Deeper than schizophrenia? You're out of your mind. Homosexuality is definitely much more easily curable than schizophrenia.
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I'd love to know the whole truth, but none of us do because that research hasn't been conducted yet.

It's a little thing called reason and logic. You use a double-standard for homosexuality. You can admit that other, similar defects are treatable but that homosexuality is not. And why is that? Because then you would have to change your argument!
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #22
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I just want to ask one question: If homosexuality is controlled mainly by genetics how does it get passed from one generation to the next?

*waits to be savaged by everyone else in the thread*
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #23
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Not all genetic things only happen by being passed between generations, remember... and homosexuality seems to be one of them. Some mutation while being formed or something, I'd expect...
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It's a little thing called reason and logic. You use a double-standard for homosexuality. You can admit that other, similar defects are treatable but that homosexuality is not. And why is that? Because then you would have to change your argument!

Because the idea that you can 'treat' someone to be able to find the other gender attractive is so ludicrous... especially since, unlike schizophrenia, homosexuality doesn't have drugs... you can just *will* yourself to completely change yourself that much, on that basic a level? Absurd.
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Creating a victim where none exists is what you're doing. I mean, why would there be pride parades held to celebrate a mental or genetic illness? I mean, I can believe that someone who dresses up for a parade in bare-ass leathers and calls themselves "Timmy and Tommy, the Testicle Twins" has some screws loose, but those people are a minority, and their depravity probably is due to things other than their sexual preference. I know several gay people, work with several, and I don't believe for a second that any of them suffer from any sort of genetic or mental illness. They seem normal to me, other than the choice they make.

They won't need gay pride parades when gays are accepted... that's why they exist. Your "point" here makes no sense... except to prove once again why things like gay pride parades are still needed.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #24
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Not all genetic things only happen by being passed between generations, remember... and homosexuality seems to be one of them. Some mutation while being formed or something, I'd expect...

Hmm...
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by A Black Falcon
They won't need gay pride parades when gays are accepted... that's why they exist. Your "point" here makes no sense... except to prove once again why things like gay pride parades are still needed.

Actually, I think The Onion stated it correctly when they said that the crazy shit and crazy people that frequent those things are a pretty good reason why homosexuals are still not accepted. Some of those things are like freakshows from hell. I mean, you're going to stage a parade with huge penis floats and half-naked men in leather leading other half-naked men in leather on leashes like a dog and expect normal human beings to accept you as one of their own?

That said, it's not a push for acceptance, it's a push for political clout. Hell, if gays WERE accepted, they'd have to pretend they weren't, otherwise they'd be increasingly worthless as a political lobbying point. For examples, see NAACP.
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Tue, October 21st, 2003   #26
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Minority groups are disadvantaged in our society and do deserve help...
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Wed, October 22nd, 2003   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Weltall
Actually, I think The Onion stated it correctly when they said that the crazy shit and crazy people that frequent those things are a pretty good reason why homosexuals are still not accepted. Some of those things are like freakshows from hell. I mean, you're going to stage a parade with huge penis floats and half-naked men in leather leading other half-naked men in leather on leashes like a dog and expect normal human beings to accept you as one of their own?

That said, it's not a push for acceptance, it's a push for political clout. Hell, if gays WERE accepted, they'd have to pretend they weren't, otherwise they'd be increasingly worthless as a political lobbying point. For examples, see NAACP.

I agree.

I think what the minorities should do is reach out to the majority in a more positive way . When you always go around whining everyone is annoyed and your just putting salt on old wounds.
Alot of Blacks and hispanics ect.. now live in the suburbs and the belief suburbia is all white country is now a myth.
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Wed, October 22nd, 2003   #28
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I think Canada does a better job with immigrants and minorities than the US, I think... I don't think we do terribly, but its not great. Oh, sure, we have a very long (ever since the beginning...) tradition of disliking the latest immigrants... it takes a while for each new group to be accepted. Now its the Hispanics. In a generation or two they'll be just as initigrated into our society as every immigrant group before them, but until that happens because of human nature there's bound to be trouble. Its too bad, but its true. People are dumb and hatred or dislike is a lot easier than understanding.
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Wed, October 22nd, 2003   #29
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Canada unlike popular belief has alot of minorities especially in central canada ,Some of them live in apartment but quite a bit live in with everyone else. Imigrants are given alot of opportunities such as coilege soon as they arrive if they are old enough and skilled enough. Nobody wants to paint the picture that they are a drain. I have made freinds with african imigrants and there is alot of excitement in introducing them to are way of life and culture and also learning about theres.

But what we refrain from doing is marginalism and putting a specific people taged as the underpriviledge class. Animosity is caused when certain groups get taged with the word "welfair" or "undepriviledged".

Canada has its issues a while ago the aboriginals were stereotyped and still are in some places, It all sprouted from the view in many peoples minds that Indians sat around living off tax payers dollars using that money to buy achohol and drugs and cause trouble and not contribute at all , Which is false much the same as teenagers are stereotyped.
But how all of this was ressolved Aboriginals were given more power over themselves and were held accountable for themselves , Also the tax free thing which was one of the old colonial agreements was that you had to live on a resserve to be tax free.But over the years some people were miss informed and that did cause problems thinking they were in titled to not pay taxes if they lived off a resserve.

This was a big deal when canada decided to choose its own flag ,before we would have had three leafs instead of one but we choose one leaf as a better symbol of unity then grouping it off.
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Wed, October 22nd, 2003   #30
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Yeah, its strange that hte US, a nation built from immigrants and one of the most active nations in the world in allowing in immigrants should still after all this time not really be prepared to quickly get them accepted into our society... its quite sad, actually. I'd think we'd have progressed on the issue in the past two hundred years like some other nations have... especially since we DO allow in a lot of immigrants.
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Wed, October 22nd, 2003   #31
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Some people obviously do have a dislike or outright hatred for immigrants. The only ones I, and most people, dislike are illegals. It just so happens that most illegal immigrants are Hispanic. I think it is a terrible idea not only to allow illegal immigration, but as in California actually encourage it, and actually accomodate them politically.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone who immigrates through legal avenues (hell, one of my very best friends in the whole wide world is a recent immigrant from Europe), but I firmly believe anyone here illegally should be shipped back post haste, until they want to do it the right way.
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Wed, October 22nd, 2003   #32
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Illegal immigration definitely is a tricky issue... I'm not sure. I think its awful that so many people are dying in attempts to get into this country, but there'll never be enough legal immigration from the nations they come from... I don't see a way to stop it. Yes, though, it is true that being lenient encourages more people to take that risk... I'm not sure. On the one hand they are people and should be treated decently and not just shipped back to Mexico where they will try again next week... but on the other I'd say it hurts all those people who got in legally, especially socially...
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Thu, October 23rd, 2003   #33
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Every single country hates illegal imigration, Even mine though since we got the U.S as a buffer and the two oceans as walls it isnt as big as the mexico dig. But Chinese people keep appearing out of cargo crates and Jamaicans and Haithians keep poping off air plane landing gears it sure gets to be a burden since at one time we had thousands of chinese ilegal imigrants rush in all at once and then another wave followed.

But what the U.S should do with illegal mexicans is send them too Spain were they are needed,Spains birth rate is dead and the babby boomers are retiring so yah go support your latino mother country and get it back on its feet, plus they speak spainish. Spain wants imigrants!If not there is plenty other needy countries.

The reason they run to the U.S is usually cause they have family already settled in,Alot have the view America will make them rich.
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Thu, October 23rd, 2003   #34
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The problem with Europe, and Japan, is that ethnically homogenous nations generally like to stay that way... they aren't very hospitable for immigrants, and don't like the idea of large-scale immigration. So the result is that they now have declining populations, since as nations become more industrialized and modern birthrates drop off...

And the reason people from the Americas come here is the huge, fairly open border with Mexico just inviting them to cross. Most everywhere else is a much more involved process...
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Thu, October 23rd, 2003   #35
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But Chinese people keep appearing out of cargo crates and Jamaicans and Haithians keep poping off air plane landing gears it sure gets to be a burden since at one time we had thousands of chinese ilegal imigrants rush in all at once and then another wave followed.

What the fuck are you talking about.
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Thu, October 23rd, 2003   #36
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The problem is the illegals tend to have advantages like being able to avoid taxes since they aren't really registered citizens and won't be noticed in that manner. That's what makes it such a bad thing. The idea of just allowing the laws to be broken like that is just silly. Now, on the other hand, should we allow more legals in? It may seem like catering, but I don't see too big a problem in saying "yes, let a lot more in legally".
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Fri, October 24th, 2003   #37
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http://edition.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/a...nada.smuggling/

This is what I am talking about !
Did you think I made this up?!!!
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Sat, October 25th, 2003   #38
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Yeah but it's not a recurring thing...like you said it was.
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Sat, October 25th, 2003   #39
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It actually happens fairly regularly... people want to get into the US, some by any means necessary...
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Sat, October 25th, 2003   #40
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Quote:
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Yeah but it's not a recurring thing...like you said it was.

I am sure your at the docks in BC checking each cargo crate for chinese people, There is the old fasion stowaway that ends up in one of our harbours after a long tired voyage.It may not be rampant as the mexico stretch or the caribeans like cuba.
But it surely happens yearly and all expenses go off tax payers.The article there states 18 million chinese people are said to be poised and waiting for an opportunity to get to north america in this way so yah it must be a little more common then alot think.
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